Incrementally Improving PowerPlay - Make PowerPlay Open-Only

[Rubbernuke]

Ah, but did you suggest BGS based powerplay? That's what I wanted. And yes, it would be mode agonstic

Yes I did:

[POWERPLAY] Proposal for redesign using BGS style mechanics that work with the new BGS

Here is an alternative concept for Powerplay, where Powerplay works like a modifier for the BGS to make each system more unique. Unlike the current system it simulates the political aspect and is 5C proof. Powerplay V2: Expansions / prep / CC / bubbles removed and each system has every power...

forums.frontier.co.uk

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Yes I did:

[POWERPLAY] Proposal for redesign using BGS style mechanics that work with the new BGS

Here is an alternative concept for Powerplay, where Powerplay works like a modifier for the BGS to make each system more unique. Unlike the current system it simulates the political aspect and is 5C proof. Powerplay V2: Expansions / prep / CC / bubbles removed and each system has every power...

forums.frontier.co.uk

Booyah!

 

[Rubbernuke]

There are many awkward situations coming from the still invisible dimensions, essentially if power players band together in platforms you'd have powers that are super strong in one platform and weak in another, resulting in little hostile interaction once again while entire triggers get filled up. Obviously it's not going to be that extreme but I wouldn't underestimate such a zerging effect.

Not really- its about 85% PC with PS4 and XB taking the rest, which means most of the work is done on PC.

Considering the many shenanigans you can do with the P2P structure that isn't designed to force everyone in the same instance you'll still have people evade combat in newer, more ridiculous way such as setting up a strong NAT/Firewall so they can't be paired with anyone on Open. A player abusing that will be more productive than ever, since PP is still about filling up triggers, NOT about PvP encounters. This is why I'm cautious about even giving a open-only bonus, suddenly you have a meta about being in open, but still without the goal of pvp encounters.

And this is down to FD to sort out, because it affects more than Powerplay (in fact the whole game).

Making PP open-only would be no small tweak and it feels like that energy would be better spent on many other PP suggestions to spice things up while taking advantage of Elite's strengths, otherwise you just risk ruining the feature as it backtracks on fully supporting 2 game modes almost 6 years after launch in order to listen to a vocal forum complaint. Big, thousands-scale PvP for territory control can be found on EVE, where rebuys aren't a joke and you have to work the entire supply/demand for your coalition's bubble of space. I don't think this can happen unless it's in an Elite Dangerous 2 with an entirely new philosophy about game modes and network structure.

Open Powerplay is the only new gameplay possible. NPCs can be made harder, but are still constrained by persistence, AI, loadouts, instance structure (i.e. they can;t chase you, help your plans and are local for all purposes). You could go with missions, but then why replicate the BGS yet again?

We are not talking about 1000 player battles here, its opportunistic co-op PvP that has been seen in the latest CGs, just taken to a new level in a feature. It won't be perfect, but at least its better than the constraints imposed by small drop zones, anemic PP NPCs and restricted roles.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

And this is down to FD to sort out, because it affects more than Powerplay (in fact the whole game).

I don't think FD can do anything about it. Not without going client/server, and even then, i'm not sure.

And really, it doesn't matter for most of the game because if people want to play without other people they don't need to mess with firewalls or other shennanigans, they just play PG/solo.

It only becomes a problem if someone wants to restrict something to be open only. So, at the current time, its not a problem even for Powerplay. It would be a problem if Powerplay went open only.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I don't think FD can do anything about it. Not without going client/server, and even then, i'm not sure.

And really, it doesn't matter for most of the game because if people want to play without other people they don't need to mess with firewalls or other shennanigans, they just play PG/solo.

It only becomes a problem if someone wants to restrict something to be open only. So, at the current time, its not a problem even for Powerplay. It would be a problem if Powerplay went open only.

The problem is that Powerplay is a backward copy of a CG gamplay wise- unless it offers something that everything else does not there is no point to it. In Solo and PG NPCs don't put up any sort of fight, so either they get much harder or other players take the role- this is the crux of the problem. Its much easier to let players do it than to change drop zones, aggressive AI or other abstracted rules which affect more than Powerplay itself which is pretty self contained.

The other thing is numbers- if enough 'good' players just, well, play rather than fiddle the problem goes away. Powerplay has a problem with 5C because the pledge pool is too low which makes 5C more influential. If you double the player pool (which is at the lowest end of the interest shown) then the signal to noise changes- couple that with weighting and 5C have a much harder time.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The problem is that Powerplay is a backward copy of a CG gamplay wise- unless it offers something that everything else does not there is no point to it.

That's a good point. If i could help my power by mining, exploring, doing passenger missions, i'd probably be well into it, because it would allow me to do things i enjoy and contribute without feeling that I must do what Powerplay requires (largely hauling, with some combat on the side) to help my Power.

If the BGS required me to do just a couple of limited activities, i also wouldn't do that.

 

[Rubbernuke]

That's a good point. If i could help my power by mining, exploring, doing passenger missions, i'd probably be well into it, because it would allow me to do things i enjoy and contribute without feeling that I must do what Powerplay requires (largely hauling, with some combat on the side) to help my Power.

If the BGS required me to do just a couple of limited activities, i also wouldn't do that.

This is what I mean, and what I try to address in my version of Open Only- in that you make the PvP hide and seek part fit Open, but that interlocks with solo PG that plays to the strengths of mission scale NPCs- the important part being the outcomes help each other but are not the same (so solo guys generate cargo for the Open guys to risk moving).

Its what I try to highlight when I say NPCs in game don't scale past missions- the whole game is set up for 'local' encounters in small bubbles. When you ask it to oppose someone in a wider context it just fails.

Making the feature as is Open would give it a reason to be, but for me it would have to be the start of making Powerplay something better than being 'just it'.

 

[Northpin]

Make PowerPlay Open-Only

Nope, the modes are there to filter Players out, not game features.

The only way to have PP open only would be achievable in only 2 modes:

1) Remove PP from the game and have it like a separate mini-game like CQC
or
2) Completely rehaul the Merits part.
Merits are no longer CARGO goods.
Merits can no longer get by killing NPC
Merits can only be GAINED by killing Human players affiliated to a Power.
This way PP works like a multiplayer pvp game and not as a PVE game as it is now.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Nope, the modes are there to filter Players out, not game features.

The only way to have PP open only would be achievable in only 2 modes:

1) Remove PP from the game and have it like a separate mini-game like CQC
or
2) Completely rehaul the Merits part.
Merits are no longer CARGO goods.
Merits can no longer get by killing NPC
Merits can only be GAINED by killing Human players affiliated to a Power.
This way PP works like a multiplayer pvp game and not as a PVE game as it is now.

Which removes the tactical side to it totally, and possibly be 5Cable. People don't want abstract rules, they want structured conflict with you stopping someone else via the action.

Plus, for 2 to work, you'd be making it into choice 1 anyway, and conceptually by removing it from the main game surely you are filtering the feature? Why not go for the most conceptually simple answer (which is the mode swap?)

 

[Northpin]

Which removes the tactical side to it totally, and possibly be 5Cable. People don't want abstract rules, they want structured conflict with you stopping someone else via the action.

Plus, for 2 to work, you'd be making it into choice 1 anyway, and conceptually by removing it from the main game surely you are filtering the feature? Why not go for the most conceptually simple answer (which is the mode swap?)

2 would work pretty much like any other multiplayer feature - it will require other human players to work...
Isn't all the Open Only calls for?

Or by Open-Only you only want to be able to shoot cargo t9's with murder boats?

 

[Tarkus Venius]

Actually @CMDR Foursyth - my final point to you was wrong, since you are on the hauling side. You are not on the stopping people side.

So, if you don't mind, i have some questions:

How often do you and your people fail to make deliveries (on average)?
What ships do you fly to maximize your efficiency/chances?
What techniques do you use to get to your destination without being stopped/turned away/destroyed?

And some speculative questions:

I think its safe to say that if it did go open only, not everyone who currently does PP in PG/solo will continue to do so in Open. However, PP going open only is likely to attract a lot more who are interested in the PvP side of things.

First, do you think that is fair assessment of the situation?

If so, what do you think that will do for your chances of making deliveries?

If, as i suspect, it will reduce your chances, do you think it might have a negative impact on the motivation of some of the haulers, especially those who do transfer over from PG/solo, but perhaps also on those who are currently playing Open and more or less ok with the current survival chances?

Open only PVP will lose some solo mode players, I think most will adapt. Overall it will make the game more interesting and make casual sabotage more difficult. We will see who is hauling 300K merits to bad expansions to ruin our Princess. We will see who is AFK bot grinding combat expansions in solo mode.

- I fortify ALD most weeks. Hauling is more exciting if there is a possibility of being hunted and killed in Kamadhenu. NPCs in this game are a joke, it's fun to try a real challenge. Other players.

 

[Rubbernuke]

2 would work pretty much like any other multiplayer feature - it will require other human players to work...
Isn't all the Open Only calls for?

Which (IMO) would not be possible, because Open Powerplay would be opportunistic in nature since its still based on instancing (as opposed to CQC which everyone exists in a matched 1:1 arena).

Or by Open-Only you only want to be able to shoot cargo t9's with murder boats?

Thats part of the feature- if you have a large territory you have to support it. You either have help in getting through or build better ships.

 

[Khan Tannhauser]

Open only PVP will lose some solo mode players, I think most will adapt. Overall it will make the game more interesting and make casual sabotage more difficult. We will see who is hauling 300K merits to bad expansions to ruin our Princess. We will see who is AFK bot grinding combat expansions in solo mode.

- I fortify ALD most weeks. Hauling is more exciting if there is a possibility of being hunted and killed in Kamadhenu. NPCs in this game are a joke, it's fun to try a real challenge. Other players.

It's true that Powerplay could lose some players if it went Open Only, but many others would be returning or giving it a try for the first time too. I fully agree with the rest of your comment.

 

[Northpin]

Which (IMO) would not be possible, because Open Powerplay would be opportunistic in nature since its still based on instancing (as opposed to CQC which everyone exists in a matched 1:1 arena).



Thats part of the feature- if you have a large territory you have to support it. You either have help in getting through or build better ships.

Then PP stays as it is, as a PVE feature that needs absolutely no PVP interactions to work out and to produce effects
So no changes are needed whatsoever.

And all the arguments fall back to the old chorus of lets have more targets in Open so them murderboats can have a meaning.

And to the: ED is not a PVP game. It's only a game that allows PVP within certain limits without requiring it for any achievable game objective
Right?

Is there any mission, goal, game objective that requires you to kill a commander and only a commander (as in not a npc) for that mission, goal or game objective to succeed?
No.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Then PP stays as it is, as a PVE feature that needs absolutely no PVP interactions to work out and to produce effects
So no changes are needed whatsoever.

Which dooms Powerplay to its current hell as a sub-par 2015 CG mixed with basic wing missions of either shoot or haul. Lovely.

And all the arguments fall back to the old chorus of lets have more targets in Open so them murderboats can have a meaning.

Because thats what it needs to have to balance the game. If hauling is too easy (as it is now) then you wind up with a full bubble (as it is now) with nothing of value to fight over. Defence is far to easy in Powerplay allowing for large territories- the bias needs to be for attack to free territory to fight over. If that was the case, Powerplay would flow better and not be trench warfare which enforces bland easy hauling that just continues the cycle, made even easier by consolidation votes.

And to the: ED is not a PVP game. It's only a game that allows PVP within certain limits without requiring it for any achievable game objective
Right?

Is there any mission, goal, game objective that requires you to kill a commander and only a commander (as in not a npc) for that mission, goal or game objective to succeed?
No.

Then its strange why Powerplay still has explicit pledge badges, explicit territory, simple roles (two- either haul or shoot), real time 1:1 feedback on actions, week long tick etc. Powerplay has all the features of a PvP style game- FD themselves felt that themselves going as far as to post it on these forums.

Currently PvP is not required because you can easily dodge anyone- but in doing so you cut out a massive chunk of strategy, flying skill and ship building knowledge.

 

[Khan Tannhauser]

Nope, the modes are there to filter Players out, not game features.

The only way to have PP open only would be achievable in only 2 modes:

1) Remove PP from the game and have it like a separate mini-game like CQC
or
2) Completely rehaul the Merits part.
Merits are no longer CARGO goods.
Merits can no longer get by killing NPC
Merits can only be GAINED by killing Human players affiliated to a Power.
This way PP works like a multiplayer pvp game and not as a PVE game as it is now.

Powerplay as it is now is a game that combines both PVE and PVP and allows people who enjoy to do different things to work together for a common goal. Let me reiterate, this is already happening now and anyone who's actually part of one of the Power communities knows this. What we are discussing here is if we want to remove the possibility of bypassing enemy PVP activity by just switching to Solo.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Nope, the modes are there to filter Players out, not game features.

The only way to have PP open only would be achievable in only 2 modes:

1) Remove PP from the game and have it like a separate mini-game like CQC
or
2) Completely rehaul the Merits part.
Merits are no longer CARGO goods.
Merits can no longer get by killing NPC
Merits can only be GAINED by killing Human players affiliated to a Power.
This way PP works like a multiplayer pvp game and not as a PVE game as it is now.

Variant 2 would be wide open to abuse.

 

[Northpin]

Powerplay as it is now is a game that combines both PVE and PVP and allows people who enjoy to do different things to work together for a common goal.

Yes, but it does that on a voluntary basis
Some people find some activities more enjoyable in open with oposition.
Some do not.

And as it is now, both player types can enjoy the game.
So it's all based on personal choice not based on forced open only or by penalizing players for certain play choices (as in playing in solo)

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Open only PVP will lose some solo mode players, I think most will adapt. Overall it will make the game more interesting and make casual sabotage more difficult. We will see who is hauling 300K merits to bad expansions to ruin our Princess. We will see who is AFK bot grinding combat expansions in solo mode.

- I fortify ALD most weeks. Hauling is more exciting if there is a possibility of being hunted and killed in Kamadhenu. NPCs in this game are a joke, it's fun to try a real challenge. Other players.

Thanks for the response.

But i'm not sure if it will help with bots. With how easy credits are, someone could leave a bot to run 24/7 and eat rebuys without an issue. There will be huge gaps in any defenses at various times of the day, plus the vargaries of instancing come in to play. Furthermore, if someone is willing to cheat using bots, they will totally be willing to cheat using firewall rules. You'd still never see them. And, if in fact, being open only would reduce the amount hauled by regular players (which is the expected outcome right, due to people being stopped), that would then tip the scales even further in favour of those running bots.

Let's assume for example, that the most flagrant botters are supporting your beloved princess (yes yes, i know, the bad people are always on the other side, everyone on our side is good. Everyone on our side is already in open. Its the other side hiding in solo... i've heard it all before) then those botters will benefit your side by a decent margin. Furthermore, it will upset the other sides when they see massive gains on your side when they don't see the ships, so you would start getting accusations that your side are cheating.

Food for thought perhaps?

 

[Northpin]

Variant 2 would be wide open to abuse.

The current mode is also open to abuse by botters, isn't it?
Like pretty every game feature in a competitive game where there is no active policing.

Variant 2 would be quite hard to be abused if people would be prevented from Power hopping so easily.
For example, if you leave a power, you cannot join another one for 4 weeks.
Sure, the means to gain PP modules would have to be changed as well.