Gankers' rights movement?

[Morbad]

But, if it wasn't for a certain 'playstyle' perhaps it would be used far less indiscriminately?

I'm not certain of that. Despite it's prominence as a forum bogeyman, contextless ganking, as part of a ganking 'playstyle', is not common.

Some people will not countenance anything they perceive as an obstacle, no matter how legitimate the obstacle, nor how out of place the lack of obstacles would be. Other's simply have no comprehension of their own characters' ability to influence the game and by virtue of that ignorance cannot place the actions of others in context, thus always assume the worst. Still more block not on behavior, but on the oft mistaken presumption of such behavior.

The problem is that Frontier left such determinations in the hands of individual players, many of whom are ignorant of likely contexts and/or wholly inconsiderate of others players....then gave them a tool that can force everyone their characters instance with to abide by their personal choices. Worse than the lack of constraints on player behavior, which is problematic enough, is the ability for players to impose their own arbitrary constraints on everyone else.

 

[SergMx]

The game has too many kinks to the side of the gankers.

 

[Rat Catcher]

I'm not certain of that. Despite it's prominence as a forum bogeyman, contextless ganking, as part of a ganking 'playstyle', is not common.

Some people will not countenance anything they perceive as an obstacle, no matter how legitimate the obstacle, nor how out of place the lack of obstacles would be. Other's simply have no comprehension of their own characters' ability to influence the game and by virtue of that ignorance cannot place the actions of others in context, thus always assume the worst. Still more block not on behavior, but on the oft mistaken presumption of such behavior.

The problem is that Frontier left such determinations in the hands of individual players, many of whom are ignorant of likely contexts and/or wholly inconsiderate of others players....then gave them a tool that can force everyone their characters instance with to abide by their personal choices. Worse than the lack of constraints on player behavior, which is problematic enough, is the ability for players to impose their own arbitrary constraints on everyone else.

Well, I won't visit Deciat in open in an unengineered ship... but that is just common-sense

There have been several good explanations of the side-effects of blocking here on the forum, it would be good if they were read and considered more by the members who might need their understanding of consequences refreshed.

It still boils down to the same old debate, really: If a player doesn't want the 'risk' of a random encounter resulting in the loss of their ship (plus cargo /data if appropriate) the correct mode should be chosen - even if real risk is only in a couple of systems and possible risk in the PP key systems...

 

[Old Duck]

Worse than the lack of constraints on player behavior, which is problematic enough, is the ability for players to impose their own arbitrary constraints on everyone else.

Switch to Solo - problem solved!

#iBlock

 

[SergMx]

Open game is a game not for ALL ! It is a game only for PVP players, as there is a lot of unfairness for ordinary players who just play the game and perform any missions in the game.

 

[Old Duck]

Open game is a game not for ALL ! It is a game only for PVP players, as there is a lot of unfairness for ordinary players who just play the game and perform any missions in the game.

Block brings the balance you seek.

 

[Morbad]

Switch to Solo - problem solved!

Block brings the balance you seek.

Not if you want to play with others, without excluding others from playing with others.

 

[Morbad]

Open game is a game not for ALL !

I would be, if not for block and other methods of interfering with instancing.

It is a game only for PVP players, as there is a lot of unfairness for ordinary players who just play the game and perform any missions in the game.

I only occasionally go out of my way to have my CMDR fight other CMDRs. 95% of the time he's just going about his business...and the presence of hostile CMDRs is not in any way, shape, or form, an 'unfairness'.

Well, I won't visit Deciat in open in an unengineered ship...

I will, and my CMDR has never been shot down in Deciat, or any other Engineer system.

Simply knowing that he is more likely to be attacked inspires enough situational awareness to make the odds of a successful attack, irrespective of ship, virtually non-existent.

It still boils down to the same old debate, really: If a player doesn't want the 'risk' of a random encounter resulting in the loss of their ship (plus cargo /data if appropriate) the correct mode should be chosen - even if real risk is only in a couple of systems and possible risk in the PP key systems...

Sure, but that would require initiative and discretion that many players evidently lack...and they are still left with tools that enable them to lash out indiscriminately.

 

[Old Duck]

Not if you want to play with others, without excluding others from playing with others.

In a game that splits the player base into many multiple instances in busy systems anyway, your Princess and the Pea argument just doesn't move me. You're going to be excluded from playing with others regardless, so whether the glass shatters at my block list or by random "instance A and B are full, so you get put in instance C" is a moot point IMO, and much ado about nothing.

So no, I don't "give a whit" about this silly argument of yours. But if it bothers you so much, complain to Frontier - it's their system after all.

 

[Chrystoph]

Make Open Opt-In instead of Opt-Out

 

[Morbad]

In a game that splits the player base into many multiple instances in busy systems anyway, your Princess and the Pea argument just doesn't move me. You're going to be excluded from playing with others regardless, so whether the glass shatters at my block list or by random "instance A and B are full, so you get put in instance C" is a moot point IMO, and much ado about nothing.

The problem is not with my argument, it's with your fallacious grasp of the block feature and it's implications.

"But there are instances anyway" is false equivalence. All of the the other instancing weights are either technical in nature (and thus largely unavoidable), or are slanted toward inclusion, rather than exclusion (a positive effect for a mode where the purpose is to encounter others). Blocking is the only facet players are given control of that splits up the Open population more than it otherwise would be. Far from being a mitigating factor, the denser traffic in a busy system exacerbates the negative effects of blocking, because there are more CMDRs who are blocked/blocking present.

Your block list is fundamentally different than a full instance or a poor quality connection, in a rather profound way.

So no, I don't "give a whit" about this silly argument of yours.

I know you don't. That is self-evident by the manner in which you've chosen to use the block functionality. Unfortunately, those who wish to use Open as intended have no ability to exclude you, without compounding the very issues your CMDR's presence creates.

Ultimately, you are entitled to be indiscriminate, but your refusal to acknowledge that you are making the game tangibly worse for others, including some you have not blocked, is at best, willful ignorance.

But if it bothers you so much, complain to Frontier - it's their system after all.

That's what every post of mine on this topic, and every reply to them, is doing.

 

[Old Duck]

Ultimately, you are entitled to be indiscriminate, but your refusal to acknowledge that you are making the game tangibly worse for others, including some you have not blocked, is at best, willful ignorance.

There are MANY videos of griefers making ED "tangibly worse" for players who want to play in Open but are forced into Solo because of them. I've yet to see a video demonstrating how my block list is making the game tangibly worse. It doesn't. This is a boogey man that lives in your head, not reality. Are you also terrified of butterflies because they can theoretically cause tornadoes?

Even if I tried to make your own game tangibly worse by strategically using block against you, I seriously doubt I could. Thankfully I don't need to - I just have to type some words in a forum to ruin your game. Go me!

 

[SergMx]

The problem is not with my argument, it's with your fallacious grasp of the block feature and it's implications.

"But there are instances anyway" is false equivalence. All of the the other instancing weights are either technical in nature (and thus largely unavoidable), or are slanted toward inclusion, rather than exclusion (a positive effect for a mode where the purpose is to encounter others). Blocking is the only facet players are given control of that splits up the Open population more than it otherwise would be. Far from being a mitigating factor, the denser traffic in a busy system exacerbates the negative effects of blocking, because there are more CMDRs who are blocked/blocking present.

Your block list is fundamentally different than a full instance or a poor quality connection, in a rather profound way.



I know you don't. That is self-evident by the manner in which you've chosen to use the block functionality. Unfortunately, those who wish to use Open as intended have no ability to exclude you, without compounding the very issues your CMDR's presence creates.

Ultimately, you are entitled to be indiscriminate, but your refusal to acknowledge that you are making the game tangibly worse for others, including some you have not blocked, is at best, willful ignorance.



That's what every post of mine on this topic, and every reply to them, is doing.

Yes, I understand that blocking is bad. But before you remove the lock you need to clean up the game.
For example in PVE if someone intercepts me I just leave him. In the PVP on any ship against any ship it is easier to give up and then fly away. Why so ?
Why in the open game there is a separation of the NPC and people ?
And there are a lot of such utterances.
Remove many wrong things in the game and you will not need a lock !

 

[Morbad]

There are MANY videos of griefers making ED "tangibly worse" for players who want to play in Open but are forced into Solo because of them.

No one is forced into Solo.

I've yet to see a video demonstrating how my block list is making the game tangibly worse. It doesn't. This is a boogey man that lives in your head, not reality. Are you also terrified of butterflies because they can theoretically cause tornadoes?

You want video evidence proving a negative? I can prove how block works, but that's not the same as demonstrating it's the cause of someone's empty or suspiciously weighted instance, and you know this.

If blocking didn't do what I'm saying it does, you wouldn't use it because it would do anything. This is both self-evident and easily demonstrable.

Your argument is essentially that block only works from your perspective, which is even more idiotic than your analogy.

Even if I tried to make your own game tangibly worse by strategically using block against you, I seriously doubt I could.

Your doubt changes nothing about the effect your block list has. If my CMDR is in your instance, he's automatically excluded from anyone in your block list and anyone they happen to be with. This is tangibly harmful to my game experience in a rather objective way.

Thankfully I don't need to - I just have to type some words in a forum to ruin your game. Go me!

Your CMDR being in the same system as mine, if anyone on your CMDR's block list is around, makes my game experience worse (we are extremely likely to be instanced together because of our geographical locations). Proving my point on the forum does not.

Why in the open game there is a separation of the NPC and people ?

Because NPCs are deliberately handicapped and people are not.

I've always been for improving the threat NPCs are capable of providing.

 

[Old Duck]

If my CMDR is in your instance, he's automatically excluded from anyone in your block list and anyone they happen to be with. This is tangibly harmful to my game experience in a rather objective way.

Counter-points:

1) Instances are very short lived. Just because I'm in the same system doesn't mean we'll be in the same instance for the duration. If I'm at the station when you jump in to the system in supercruise, you'll be in a different instance. If you drop out at the station and I'm leaving, we'll pass each other, sharing that instance for perhaps a minute, and then I'll leave your instance as I go my way and you go yours, meaning that I have a one minute window to block someone else from entering your own instance.

2) Friends take priority, so if your worried that I may have blocked your friend, don't be, because if they are your friend in game, you'll be instanced with them rather than me. If you want to be instanced with gankers I may have blocked, just friend them! Problem solved.

3) If you are worried that you are not being instanced with some random unknown dude, well that's just silly, because any number of factors may prevent you from being instanced with some random unknown dude. That's like me getting mad at stop lights in Washington DC because they might per chance keep me from sharing the road with some random important politician. Now if later it comes out that through shear random chance you were prevented from being instanced with Henry Cavill for the 90 seconds we were both in supercruise together (which is silly, because I would never block Henry Cavill), well go ahead and post the video and I'll say, "I'm sorry!"

You act like a single instance is the entire game shard, when in reality we are popping in and out of instances every couple of minutes. The only reason you would be "stuck with me" in an instance for any great length of time is if we were winged up or something. Heck, even a CZ doesn't last very long!

The only valid complaint I can see you leveraging from this is if the majority of players in Open were to block the gankers, which would basically create "friendly open" and "hostile open", at which point your argument might carry some weight. I'm pretty sure we're not there yet. If anything, forcing everyone into Solo does the same thing, except that you don't even get the chance to instance with those folk.

 

[Morbad]

Here, this is the closest thing I've got to 'proof' on hand (good thing I keep backup of my logs and can match time stamps to screen shots):

If block works, Old Duck has magnanimously (that's sarcasm, for the record) extended his benevolent reality distortion field around my CMDR, meaning that anyone who has shot down CMDR Old Duck was not going to be able to try themselves against my CMDR's shieldless trade corvette during it's approach (I recall seeing Old Duck repeatedly in SC when I took that screen shot, before I shot him a friend request) to that station (which is moderately well trafficked). This is certainly a negative, for me, and for those who would care to have their CMDR attack mine, or intervene in such an attack, or witness it, or just talk to CMDRs actually present.

Counter-points:

1) Instances are very short lived. Just because I'm in the same system doesn't mean we'll be in the same instance for the duration. If I'm at the station when you jump in to the system in supercruise, you'll be in a different instance. If you drop out at the station and I'm leaving, we'll pass each other, sharing that instance for perhaps a minute, and then I'll leave your instance as I go my way and you go yours, meaning that I have a one minute window to block someone else from entering your own instance.

2) Friends take priority, so if your worried that I may have blocked your friend, don't be, because if they are your friend in game, you'll be instanced with them rather than me. If you want to be instanced with gankers I may have blocked, just friend them! Problem solved.

3) If you are worried that you are not being instanced with some random unknown dude, well that's just silly, because any number of factors may prevent you from being instanced with some random unknown dude. That's like me getting mad at stop lights in Washington DC because they might per chance keep me from sharing the road with some random important politician. Now if later it comes out that through shear random chance you were prevented from being instanced with Henry Cavill for the 90 seconds we were both in supercruise together (which is silly, because I would never block Henry Cavill), well go ahead and post the video and I'll say, "I'm sorry!"

You act like a single instance is the entire game shard, when in reality we are popping in and out of instances every couple of minutes. The only reason you would be "stuck with me" in an instance for any great length of time is if we were winged up or something. Heck, even a CZ doesn't last very long!

The only valid complaint I can see you leveraging from this is if the majority of players in Open were to block the gankers, which would basically create "friendly open" and "hostile open", at which point your argument might carry some weight. I'm pretty sure we're not there yet. If anything, forcing everyone into Solo does the same thing, except that you don't even get the chance to instance with those folk.

1. Instances last as long as they are held open (in well trafficked areas this can be days at a time...some people idle inside stations from server reboot to server reboot), and preferential weight is given to CMDRs previously instanced with. I know from experience that we personally are very likely to be placed together, repeatedly...even before I added your CMDR to my friends list.

2. Friending does not override a block; it has a much lower weight. If I wind up in your instance first, I will be excluded from those I've friended, or even those I'm winged with. More importantly, I'm not playing in Open to play with just the tiny fraction of the population I'm willing to friend. I want to play with as many people as possible, even those I would never want on my CMDR's friends list because I don't want them tracking him around. My CMDR isn't an idiot and doesn't give his enemies his transponder codes...but that doesn't mean I don't want to play a game where the characters of other players cannot be enemies of mine.

3. Barring technical issues or a maxed out instance, my CMDR is very likely to be instanced with any other CMDR present. In instances with populations below a dozen or so, I will reliably be instanced with everyone who is in NA or Western Europe who doesn't have a broken network. On a good day, everyone in Open in the system chat will be in the same instance. Being unconnectable or having an excessive ping are the main factors, other than block, that will prevent instancing.

There is no requirement for the majority of players to block to cause problems; even a few in a populated area will cause issues because they all overlap, creating mutual exclusions. Indeed, the more people that are around the more likely it is that a block is responsible for the presence of any given instance.

It only takes one blocker to cover an entire instance, so the more people, the more chances that someone present will have a block that applies to someone else. The moment that happens, there is another instance that would not otherwise be there, which is a clear dilution of the Open population, above and beyond all other factors.

If the goal is to encounter as many people as possible--which I think is entirely rational for Open--a one in four chance of encountering someone is objectively better than a one in six, or one ten. Four instances of fifteen people is objectively better than six of ten, or ten of six.

Not being able to pin down the precise reason for any failed pairing does absolutely nothing to detract from the argument I've been making.

 

[Old Duck]

1. Instances last as long as they are held open (in well trafficked areas this can be days at a time...some people idle inside stations from server reboot to server reboot), and preferential weight is given to CMDRs previously instanced with.

This is the only point you make that I find worthy of arguing with. Yes, an instance is held open for a long time, but my block only affects that instance for the duration that I am in that instance. So okay, if I sit on the landing pad for three hours at the CG's prime station and prevent you from instancing with anyone on my block list during your quick visits to and from that station, well I suppose I can see how that totally and completely ruins the game for you. Thing is, I don't do this - I fly in, drop off my goods, and fly out again. I might be in the station for a few minutes maximum. So for my block to work against you, you, I, and the person I am blocking all need to be in the instance at the same time. Let's say that happens - you don't get to see CMDR Purple Hair while you are dropping off a single run of cargo (or whatever you do at the station), but the odds of all three of us arriving at the station at the same time EACH time is remote at best.

Now if I wanted to weaponize block, I could just sit in supercruise all day at a CG and hope that you'll instance with me rather than the gankers, but even then, your time spent in supercruise should be short. Even without blocking, the odds of being instanced with a group of gankers is a roll of the dice. Back when I was purposefully baiting gankers in my Hauler, I often would be sent to a different instance because their instance was full (as they tend to wing with each other to form pretty large gank squads at CGs).

As for your "I want to encounter as many CMDRs as possible" argument, I'd argue that I would see way more CMDRs if they used block to get rid of a few bad apples than I do now with the majority of them forced into Solo. Yes, FORCED. I've talked to countless CMDRs in Borann who felt no choice but to go to Solo, because of these gankers. Once I explained to them how block works, I was able to talk more of them over into Open, and guess what - the number of CMDRs I interacted with INCREASED. So I'm not buying this argument of yours. I'm beginning to wonder if you're just a creepy ganker yourself salting over a lack of targets. It's no coincidence that it's the "I like to kill people" CMDRs who are most opposed to blocking.

And on that note, I've made my case. Like it or not, I block, and neither your elegant arguments nor your pithy insults will change that. And not only do I block, but I'll continue to preach my gospel to all who have been forced into Solo by grief-gankers.

 

[Screemonster]

For some reason, all I can think is... what if the act of blocking affected the priority of the instances, giving preference to instances that didn't have someone in them excluding others?

If a player in instance A has another player on their block list, and a blocked player is forced into a new instance B as a result, then instance A would be flagged as a blocking instance and placed at a lower priority, making instance B the default for subsequent players. If one of those players has someone in instance B on their blocklist, they'll be shuffled into the next available instance, which would be A.

Yes, this means that blocking people will mean you're less likely to meet other players.
If a lot of people are all blocking one particular person though, all the people blocking that person would get instanced together.

 

[SergMx]

Talk a lot about the blocking mechanism, but nobody asks why this particular person got into the block.

 

[Morbad]

I might be in the station for a few minutes maximum. So for my block to work against you, you, I, and the person I am blocking all need to be in the instance at the same time. Let's say that happens - you don't get to see CMDR Purple Hair while you are dropping off a single run of cargo (or whatever you do at the station), but the odds of all three of us arriving at the station at the same time EACH time is remote at best.

We don't all need to arrive at the station at the same time, all that needs to happen is a small degree of overlap that would prompt the creation of additional instances.

Now if I wanted to weaponize block, I could just sit in supercruise all day at a CG and hope that you'll instance with me rather than the gankers, but even then, your time spent in supercruise should be short.

My CMDR's time spent in SC won't be short if I do happen to be looking for someone, and even if I'm not, chances are I'd be placed in your SC instance any time you are around, and thus be excluded from encountering anyone on your block list.

As for your "I want to encounter as many CMDRs as possible" argument, I'd argue that I would see way more CMDRs if they used block to get rid of a few bad apples than I do now with the majority of them forced into Solo. Yes, FORCED. I've talked to countless CMDRs in Borann who felt no choice but to go to Solo, because of these gankers. Once I explained to them how block works, I was able to talk more of them over into Open, and guess what - the number of CMDRs I interacted with INCREASED. So I'm not buying this argument of yours.

All of your points here are wholly subjective and heavily biased. A few anecdotes (and there are examples on both sides) cannot override the facts behind what blocking does.

Your definition of 'bad apple' should not apply to my game.

Your definition of "forced" is also backwards. Someone may find they cannot have their in-game character operate as freely as they like in Open, but that hardly implies they are 'forced' to another mode. The only thing that could rationally be construed as being forced out of Open are severe technical issues where the instance selected by matchmaking cannot be connected to. Anything short of that is a choice. What is an example of actually being forced is being excluded from interacting with others because of a third-party block.

I'm beginning to wonder if you're just a creepy ganker yourself salting over a lack of targets. It's no coincidence that it's the "I like to kill people" CMDRs who are most opposed to blocking.

I'm the most opposed to blocking and any accusation of me playing a ganker is baseless (if you want to take a look at my netlogs, I have about 100GB of them saved since 2017). That you need to assume that someone is looking for targets to have an honest problem with players being able to force their playstyles on others is ignorant and paranoid.

Of course, that's all beside the point. Who is against blocking and why does not change what the function actually does.

Like it or not, I block, and neither your elegant arguments nor your pithy insults will change that.

I have neither insulted you nor implored you to change your stance. I've corrected a few of your fallacies and outlined how your policies are an overt and oft unwanted imposition of your subjective preferences on others.

You are entitled to play the game however you can getaway with playing the game. I accept that just as I accept the occasional combat logger, hacker, or BGS bot. However, since you have publicly detailed how you personally abuse the block functionality, it makes you a useful exemplar. I do not for one second believe that your use is in accordance with Frontier's original intent, or their vision for the game, and being the optimist I am I still hold out hope that Frontier will reevaluate their decision to allow players such control over others in Open. Of course, my expectations do not align with my hopes, and I suspect that Frontier's general apathy to anything that doesn't directly impact their bottom line will continue...but that's no reason not to bring up the issue when opportunities to do so present themselves.

For some reason, all I can think is... what if the act of blocking affected the priority of the instances, giving preference to instances that didn't have someone in them excluding others?

If a player in instance A has another player on their block list, and a blocked player is forced into a new instance B as a result, then instance A would be flagged as a blocking instance and placed at a lower priority, making instance B the default for subsequent players. If one of those players has someone in instance B on their blocklist, they'll be shuffled into the next available instance, which would be A.

Yes, this means that blocking people will mean you're less likely to meet other players.
If a lot of people are all blocking one particular person though, all the people blocking that person would get instanced together.

I know they've fiddled with the instancing weights in the past, but their system doesn't seem sophisticated enough to do what you propose. Even if it is, I'm not sure they'd be willing to put in the work at this point.

Blocking people also already means that you're less likely to meet other players, because there is a chance the CMDR one has blocked has the instance matchmaking will find preferable for others entering, or already present in, the area.

Talk a lot about the blocking mechanism, but nobody asks why this particular person got into the block.

Because it's not relevant.