Now now, don't split hairs. You understood what I meant. Let's rephrase, people flying ships fitted for cargo space.
Incrementally Improving PowerPlay - Make PowerPlay Open-Only
- Thread starter CMDR Foursyth
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Now now, don't split hairs. You understood what I meant. Let's rephrase, people flying ships fitted for cargo space.
Its minor to you- but its an important distinction. Powerplay paints a target on you, and its expected that you'll be under attack from either NPCs or players at some point. Your power suffers if you fail, and part of Powerplay depends on that fine balance of sucess and failure. PP NPCs have not kept pace with players, and modes / features that allow you to bypass players to the point where that fine balance is disturbed.
I'm afraid that you have to split hairs on this one. With opposing powers up against you, you really should have to set your ship as a Blockade Runner, not a big fat min/max trader (BFT). In open, if you come across a hostile player and you're in the BFT then you are toast and that's the way it should be across all play modes. The Issue for me has always been the ease which a BFT can do cargo runs in solo or pvt without at least one interdiction, that's why I would prefer the game mode to have the hybrid open only model. However, you make it so hard that BFT builds (and any bot ships) are impossible in Powerplay, I'd probably be a lot happier.
However, my emphasis for open only is still for somewhere where consensual PvP is accepted as part of the game and you're not shouted down as a griefer for a genuine powerplay action.
Have you ever played an MMO like this before?
What you’re describing isn’t a “massive amount of effort.” What you’re describing was a trivial task for a bot... in the 1990s. These days, it’s even easier. There’s no way an honest player can compete with a cheating bot that’s online 24/7, unless they cheat themselves.
That's why your solution won't work. Because the top ten players won't be players, but the throw away account bots of the fifth columnists.
Fifth columnists aren't playing to "win" an unwinnable scenario. They're playing because they consider it fun to ruin the efforts of players trying to play honestly. They love all the salt it generates. The solution for 5th column activity isn't handing leadership over to the players who can generate the most merits, by means both fair or foul... because those foul means will win every time. The solution is to change the rules of the game that make it possible for this activity to happen in the first place.
It's funny... back in 2013, I was of the opinion that Frontier had actually studied how to make an MMO, understood the past mistakes of the early MMOs of the 80's and 90's, and come up with a novel solution to a most persistent problem. These days, I'm of the opinion that they pulled a Homer because they keep making the same ancient mistakes over and over and over again.
Isn't that the situation now? I mean, I'm by no means a fantastic pilot, but once I learned how Supercruise worked, I rarely got interdicted by players, let alone NPCs, unless I wanted to get interdicted.
The "problem" with the interdictions, is that that most players failed at avoiding interdiction long before the interdiction tether first connects to their ship. Heck, the most commonly offered Supercruise technique shouldn't be called the "seven second" rule, but the "How to waste your time and get interdicted every time" rule.
Imagine if there was actual blockade running in this game... that would be interesting!
Interdiction is another example of a feature that was never though through and left by the wayside. Personally I think more things should happen in normal space, if there was things like navigation and pirate hazard in normal space also, there would not be so much weight placed on SC, where many game features are disabled. I think that would strengthen the game. You can't do that, though, if the community can't even handle a station dropout distance of 20 km like in the beta... I never understood why 'long travel time' was so horrible, but 80 trade runs per session with no interesting events and spending most of the time docking/undocking or in starport interface is ok? But this is maybe not what the thread is about... or maybe it is. Sometimes I feel like many suggestion threads are all skirting around the same issue: that while FD are fine with making a game that seems opaque and scares away beginners, they seem completely unwilling to make a game that actually kicks back when you are experienced and know how the game works. How will you ever get good risk/reward if the game doesn't step up and tries to hurt you?
Interdiction is another example of a feature that was never though through and left by the wayside. Personally I think more things should happen in normal space, if there was things like navigation and pirate hazard in normal space also, there would not be so much weight placed on SC, where many game features are disabled. I think that would strengthen the game. You can't do that, though, if the community can't even handle a station dropout distance of 20 km like in the beta... I never understood why 'long travel time' was so horrible, but 80 trade runs per session with no interesting events and spending most of the time docking/undocking or in starport interface is ok? But this is maybe not what the thread is about... or maybe it is. Sometimes I feel like many suggestion threads are all skirting around the same issue: that while FD are fine with making a game that seems opaque and scares away beginners, they seem completely unwilling to make a game that actually kicks back when you are experienced and know how the game works. How will you ever get good risk/reward if the game doesn't step up and tries to hurt you?
Isn't that the situation now? I mean, I'm by no means a fantastic pilot, but once I learned how Supercruise worked, I rarely got interdicted by players, let alone NPCs, unless I wanted to get interdicted.
The "problem" with the interdictions, is that that most players failed at avoiding interdiction long before the interdiction tether first connects to their ship. Heck, the most commonly offered Supercruise technique shouldn't be called the "seven second" rule, but the "How to waste your time and get interdicted every time" rule.
The other problem with inderdictions is that when they happen there is an expectation that you are going to win them all the time, rather than a view that winning is just a first line of defence with your ship and skills being the next line.
This is a problem in the main game that has leaked into Powerplay- station drop zones are far too small, meaning NPCs can't attack here (you drop inside the stations guns range and the NPC dutifully flies away)- NAVs are vestigial for hauling in all but a few edge cases. In total there are vanishingly few places to attack, piling on the burden in SC.
I had a thought about this, and for Powerplay at least had this idea I posted on another thread which would work well here in either Open or Solo:
... I never thought of that! I just thought that pirates dropping on your wake when you go to the station was unintended behaviour... but it actually made sense for pirates to do a last-ditch attempt, back when you dropped out at 20-ish km from the station. Good times... I remember going to Freeport and actually being worried that someone might attack me!
Okay, I've caught up with this thread, and rather than reply to individual points about interdiction, both accurate an misinformed, here's what I've done to avoid interdictions:
1) Don't fly straight to your destination. The plane of the ecliptic is where all the mass in a system is, which slows you down. This is also what interdictors expect. If you don't do that, you'll gain valuable distance from them, especially if they assume your destination. Finally, by moving away from the plane of the system, it makes it a lot easier to detect potentially hostile ships, both player and NPC. If all the objects in the system are crowded to one side of your scope, then it becomes easy to see if there's another ship on your side of the scope.
2) Don't fly distracted. Not only is it not a safe thing to do, when there are ships that may attack you at any moment, but it also blinds you to opportunities to gather engineering components... assuming it's safe to do so, of course. Shut off youtube, twitch, or Netflix, and pay attention to the game.
3) Don't ignore other ships. If you see a ship where it's not supposed to be, namely out of the plane of the ecliptic and near you, target them. Pay attention to their orientation relative to you. If they're head on towards you, fly perpendicular to the plane of the ecliptic. If they change orientation relative to you again, then you know they're after you. At which point, you need to decide how you're going to handle the situation. At least you bought yourself enough time to actually do so.
4) Don't throttle down, and don't fly in a straight line. Seriously, by flying in this manner, you're simply making it easy for a would-be interdictor to have an insurmountable advantage over you when they do pull the trigger. I don't know who came up with the idea of "Avoid the loop of shame. Fly slowly in a straight line." It's slow, and makes it easy for you to be interdicted, even by NPCs. Even the "loop of shame," is faster and safer. While I doubt it was gankers who came up with the idea, because it predates the interdictor module itself, but I suspect they're the ones who keep this concept alive.
5) Use gravity braking to slow down your ship. Fly as close to a planet as you can, and use twists and turns to bleed off speed. This has a number of advantages. First and foremost, if you're successful, this leaves a would be interdictor far from you, or crashed into a planet. By the time they recover, you're safely docked. If you're unsuccessful, they're still very likely to be badly out of position, unless they're very good. Finally, while you're maneuvering, it's extremely difficult to start interdicting you in the first place.
6) Don't wait until the last second to either fight or submit to an interdiction attempt. Regardless of whether you've made some mistakes, or they're just that good, as long as you're not flying slowly in a straight line, you've bought yourself time to react to the situation. Use it. Quite frankly, as long as you're not flying a tin foil ship with underpowered engines in order to squeeze a few extra tons of cargo and a few tenths of a light year of jump range, submitting is the faster and safer choice. But if you know your ship is more maneuverable than your opponent's (you did target them, right?), and you believe that you made the mistakes, feel free to make the attempt. Just remember, they probably have more practice at the mini-game than you do... but then again, you'll never get to practice against a human opponent if you submit all the time.
In Powerplay, the bulk of your time isn't spent at your destination, but traveling to and from your pickup point. The time they waste waiting for you to arrive is much greater than the time you waste evading them... unless you don't arrive at your destination. As long as you safely deliver, you've come out ahead.
1) Don't fly straight to your destination. The plane of the ecliptic is where all the mass in a system is, which slows you down. This is also what interdictors expect. If you don't do that, you'll gain valuable distance from them, especially if they assume your destination. Finally, by moving away from the plane of the system, it makes it a lot easier to detect potentially hostile ships, both player and NPC. If all the objects in the system are crowded to one side of your scope, then it becomes easy to see if there's another ship on your side of the scope.
2) Don't fly distracted. Not only is it not a safe thing to do, when there are ships that may attack you at any moment, but it also blinds you to opportunities to gather engineering components... assuming it's safe to do so, of course. Shut off youtube, twitch, or Netflix, and pay attention to the game.
3) Don't ignore other ships. If you see a ship where it's not supposed to be, namely out of the plane of the ecliptic and near you, target them. Pay attention to their orientation relative to you. If they're head on towards you, fly perpendicular to the plane of the ecliptic. If they change orientation relative to you again, then you know they're after you. At which point, you need to decide how you're going to handle the situation. At least you bought yourself enough time to actually do so.
4) Don't throttle down, and don't fly in a straight line. Seriously, by flying in this manner, you're simply making it easy for a would-be interdictor to have an insurmountable advantage over you when they do pull the trigger. I don't know who came up with the idea of "Avoid the loop of shame. Fly slowly in a straight line." It's slow, and makes it easy for you to be interdicted, even by NPCs. Even the "loop of shame," is faster and safer. While I doubt it was gankers who came up with the idea, because it predates the interdictor module itself, but I suspect they're the ones who keep this concept alive.
5) Use gravity braking to slow down your ship. Fly as close to a planet as you can, and use twists and turns to bleed off speed. This has a number of advantages. First and foremost, if you're successful, this leaves a would be interdictor far from you, or crashed into a planet. By the time they recover, you're safely docked. If you're unsuccessful, they're still very likely to be badly out of position, unless they're very good. Finally, while you're maneuvering, it's extremely difficult to start interdicting you in the first place.
6) Don't wait until the last second to either fight or submit to an interdiction attempt. Regardless of whether you've made some mistakes, or they're just that good, as long as you're not flying slowly in a straight line, you've bought yourself time to react to the situation. Use it. Quite frankly, as long as you're not flying a tin foil ship with underpowered engines in order to squeeze a few extra tons of cargo and a few tenths of a light year of jump range, submitting is the faster and safer choice. But if you know your ship is more maneuverable than your opponent's (you did target them, right?), and you believe that you made the mistakes, feel free to make the attempt. Just remember, they probably have more practice at the mini-game than you do... but then again, you'll never get to practice against a human opponent if you submit all the time.
In Powerplay, the bulk of your time isn't spent at your destination, but traveling to and from your pickup point. The time they waste waiting for you to arrive is much greater than the time you waste evading them... unless you don't arrive at your destination. As long as you safely deliver, you've come out ahead.
Do you want to debate the effectiveness in PvP between a ship that sacrifices defensive internals for cargo modules?
Seriously, just take it as an issue of wording. Replace where i said traders with blockade runners, and problem solved.
In Powerplay, the bulk of your time isn't spent at your destination, but traveling to and from your pickup point. The time they waste waiting for you to arrive is much greater than the time you waste evading them... unless you don't arrive at your destination. As long as you safely deliver, you've come out ahead.
Yes and no- in a tight hauling race time is important as well. Falling behind for whatever reason can result in failure.
The possibility of victory always needs to exist, especially against the AI which is not subject to the same limitations of human physiology and input device design as a real player.
And whatever happens before or after the interdiction minigame doesn't absolve the minigame itself of the requirement to provide that. The minigame should provide a situation where the superior skill wins, with ship loadout and design having providing aid or hindrance*. Right now it doesn't.
*Like what if Increased Range FSD were worse in the interdiction and Shielded were better, that would be another point of decision and compromise for both the hauler and the interdictor. A weakness of supercruise in general in the game is that nothing in the player's control interacts with it meaningfully.
If you mean that there should always be the possibility of escape (which dependant on your objectives, might be considered a victory. I whole heatedly agree.
Yes, there should always be the possibility of escape within the minigame itself.
How hard that is to achieve should depend on your ship, your modules and engineering, and your skill vs. the skill, ship, and modules and engineering of the person interdicting you.
That means modules and engineering should also affect supercruise performance, as a tradeoff with jump range.
And again I agree with you- interdiction has to be a game of skill. It would benefit the whole game if grade, engineering, ship and pilot affected things.
No offense, but isn’t some of that the opposite of skill? Grade and engineering aren’t a matter of skill, but a matter of playtime. As for ship... one if the reasons why I’m a huge fan of Supercruise is that small, inexpensive ships have the maneuverability advantage there, and thus an advantage in “speed.”
It depends how its done. It could be that capture distance at super long ranges is not as powerful, ship mass disparities etc help balance things out- in the end though it has to count for something because you put the time in to get the gear.
On the flipside, supercruise agility is baked into the hull and nothing the player does can change it, despite one of the big interactions in the game being fiddling with the innards of your ship by upgrading and engineering.
(It's not always smaller lighter ships that have the advantage, the Clipper is down there with the Eagles in terms of supercruise profile)
I like every part of this post. I especially like the last part, but the only issue would be preventing the hauling player from just self destructing.
Except Merit Acquisition would be via missions now, which cant effectively be botted.
In any case, the solution to botting isn't and shouldn't be shifting responsibility to players.
Next question.
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