The problem with Consoles

[Factabulous]

This is my secret hope.
I also hope you didnt jinxed it

Seems very unlikely. In that case they could make the $$$ in this year by pushing the standard version this financial year and working on the next-gen in peace for 6 months. Much more likely it is issues with devs getting access to Console Dev Kits (as other studios have mentioned in reasons for game delays).

Edit: Or fdev is evil and just hates consoles - as some seem to think

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The problem with Consoles is that they are not PC's.

The xbox is more or less a PC, just with fixed hardware and limitations on what you can and cannot do.

This is why i don't get the "waaaa, they did graphical downgrades for PC" because ED supports much worse graphics than you can have on consoles though its settings.

I simply don't buy the whole graphical downgrades business, because FD support much worse hardware for PCs and yet we can still ramp up the graphics to get better graphics than on older hardware or console.

If there is a limit being imposed, then its being imposed by FD's support of older PC hardware, not consoles.

 

[Rubbernuke]

The xbox is more or less a PC, just with fixed hardware and limitations on what you can and cannot do.

This is why i don't get the "waaaa, they did graphical downgrades for PC" because ED supports much worse graphics than you can have on consoles though its settings.

I simply don't buy the whole graphical downgrades business, because FD support much worse hardware for PCs and yet we can still ramp up the graphics to get better graphics than on older hardware or console.

If there is a limit being imposed, then its being imposed by FD's support of older PC hardware, not consoles.

Hands off my GT 1030.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Hands off my GT 1030.

A tad better than my 960.

 

[Wrecked]

my point exactly - the consoles are not really affecting the PC game.
We consolers get our game toned down, while we usually pay more for the game than the master race does.

And then we still get blamed for whatever delays the PC version gets.

Edit:
Also check this if you want a clear picture (pun intended) about asteroid density on consoles vs pc

Spot the Differences (Where are my Asteroids?)

So lately, as in one-month-lately, i was mining LTDs a lot on my PC account (no, don't ask why). Then last weekend i decided to fill with LTDs a Cutter on my XB account with the idea to sell it when prices are good. So I did, but while i was in the ring i had a strong impression that there...

forums.frontier.co.uk

Sounds like a horrible life. Why do you console folks do this to yourselves? You should get a PC and join the high society of gamers

But seriously, getting the game “toned down” may affect other platforms more than people think. There may be a slider for some elements that increase or decrease certain quality aspects of the game, but others may need to be built for the lowest common denominator.

I can’t say exactly what that might be, only FDev knows. However, there are documented instances where the quality of the game got “reduced”, as Obsidian Ant pointed out in one of his videos. We just can’t definitively say why. It could have something to do with consoles or it could be due to some other aspect of the game changing that created more demand on the hardware which forced other areas to change to accommodate.

I suspect we’ll never know the real answers to these questions.

 

[Rubbernuke]

A tad better than my 960.

I view this like the original Half Life. Rather than just use Glide and lock it to Voodoo GFX Valve instead made it playable to as many people as possible- software, Glide, Open GL - for ED to thrive, it needs bums on space seats. Limiting your audience to top end machines ultimately limits the scope of the game.

 

[Wrecked]

The xbox is more or less a PC, just with fixed hardware and limitations on what you can and cannot do.

This is why i don't get the "waaaa, they did graphical downgrades for PC" because ED supports much worse graphics than you can have on consoles though its settings.

I simply don't buy the whole graphical downgrades business, because FD support much worse hardware for PCs and yet we can still ramp up the graphics to get better graphics than on older hardware or console.

If there is a limit being imposed, then its being imposed by FD's support of older PC hardware, not consoles.

not really, the base PS4 and XBox are at about the technical capabilities of the minimum PC specs, which according to FDevs minimum PC spec description is targeting 720p at 30fps. With the current game, I can’t see how they can introduce better graphics, better lighting, higher resolution textures, and more geometry without affecting performance at the bottom of their supported platforms.

PC is easier to get around when it comes to minimum specs because the dev can explain away poor performance due to the variance in people’s configurations. They can’t do that with consoles.

 

[TheSisko]

not really, the base PS4 and XBox are at about the technical capabilities of the minimum PC specs, which according to FDevs minimum PC spec description is targeting 720p at 30fps. With the current game, I can’t see how they can introduce better graphics, better lighting, higher resolution textures, and more geometry without affecting performance at the bottom of their supported platforms.

PC is easier to get around when it comes to minimum specs because the dev can explain away poor performance due to the variance in people’s configurations. They can’t do that with consoles.

Both the base consoles target 1080p:

Is Elite Dangerous on PlayStation the definitive console version?

Frontier Developments' celebrated Elite Dangerous arrived on PlayStation 4 recently, joining the already established PC…

www.eurogamer.net

At the base level, both the base PS4 and Xbox One versions of Elite Dangerous operate using a sub-set of the PC's expansive range of graphics options, with all versions delivering a native 1080p resolution.

Both base consoles meet or exceed 30fps too:

On the positive side, 60fps is the preferred target for all versions, and with the latest 1.3 update in place, everything runs with v-sync enabled on PS4, more in line with Xbox One. However, the evidence does seem to suggest that the Microsoft platform benefits from triple-buffering in place, while the PS4 and Pro versions use double-buffering, leading to some surprising results in head-to-head performance comparisons.

Navigating through complex space stations, frame-rate buckles on both machines, but remarkably, Xbox One is consistently in the lead in performance, seemingly capable of reaching the limits of GPU performance. Meanwhile, the PlayStation 4 game dips down hard - dropping from 60fps to 30fps under stress points - a signature impact of double-buffer v-sync. In practice, this means that we can see Xbox One delivering a 40fps performance level in these areas, with PS4 running 10fps slower. It's not particularly ideal in either case, but for intricate docking manouevres, it'll be Xbox One that gives you improved visual feedback and controller response. It's a similar story with planetary landings - sudden drops to 30fps territory on PS4, while Xbox One fluctuates between 30 to 50fps. Bearing in mind the Sony hardware's more capable GPU, this is an unexpected result.

So, base last-gen Consoles > Minimum PC spec for Elite Dangerous. That's from the Digital Foundry analysis of v1.3, and I know there have been performance improvements on consoles since then, at least on Xbox where I been playing for years, and I'm sure on Playstation too.

Don't blame the consoles. Blame potato PCs.

 

[Wrecked]

Both the base consoles target 1080p:

Is Elite Dangerous on PlayStation the definitive console version?

Frontier Developments' celebrated Elite Dangerous arrived on PlayStation 4 recently, joining the already established PC…

www.eurogamer.net

Both base consoles meet or exceed 30fps too:



So, base last-gen Consoles > Minimum PC spec for Elite Dangerous. That's from the Digital Foundry analysis of v1.3, and I know there have been performance improvements on consoles since then, at least on Xbox where I been playing for years, and I'm sure on Playstation too.

Don't blame the consoles. Blame potato PCs.

I think an actual potato could get 60 fps in open space in this game .

However, from that Digital Foundry video... the console performance in Horizons becomes poor when going into anything with actual detail behind it. Odyssey is nothing but more detail, on par with or better than the current station graphics. Couple that with lighting improvements, geometry improvements, and new effects... I don't know, it'll be a surprise to not see performance drop to unplayable in certain situations.

Even worse when you have a simple outpost on a planet in view. The LOD on this outpost is incredibly low at this distance and both consols struggle greatly. In this sceen, there isn't atmospheric lighting effects, NPCs walking around, a bunch of different buildings with greater detail, moving parts, etc... With the Odyssey planets having even more detail and better visual fidelity... again, I can't see it being possible to get an experience remotely close to next gen consoles or mid range PCs on the minimum spec or old consoles.

Just looking at the videos and images we have from Odyssey so far, it seems the base PC and old consoles will need a miracle to maintain 30 FPS for Odyssey content.

But maybe we'll all be pleasantly surprised... guess we'll have to wait until December to find out (Well, for consoles).

 

[TheSisko]

I think an actual potato could get 60 fps in open space in this game .

However, from that Digital Foundry video... the console performance in Horizons becomes poor when going into anything with actual detail behind it. Odyssey is nothing but more detail, on par with or better than the current station graphics. Couple that with lighting improvements, geometry improvements, and new effects... I don't know, it'll be a surprise to not see performance drop to unplayable in certain situations.

View attachment 204611

View attachment 204612

Even worse when you have a simple outpost on a planet in view. The LOD on this outpost is incredibly low at this distance and both consols struggle greatly. In this sceen, there isn't atmospheric lighting effects, NPCs walking around, a bunch of different buildings with greater detail, moving parts, etc... With the Odyssey planets having even more detail and better visual fidelity... again, I can't see it being possible to get an experience remotely close to next gen consoles or mid range PCs on the minimum spec or old consoles.

View attachment 204613

Just looking at the videos and images we have from Odyssey so far, it seems the base PC and old consoles will need a miracle to maintain 30 FPS for Odyssey content.

But maybe we'll all be pleasantly surprised... guess we'll have to wait until December to find out (Well, for consoles).

I'm aware, just pointing out that base consoles exceed minumum PC spec - those PCs will also see dips in performance I imagine when in stations or on planets too.

 

[Misty_Dark]

I was not that worried that Odyssey would raise of the hardware requirements, and then I thought about Horizon, that required more powerful hardware for the planet stuff...

Now as I have understood it, planet surfaces are more detailed, and that suggests that this will require more powerful hardware... Now FDev could have been lazy and not used the hardware to it fullest potential and thus can negate some or even all of that increased hardware requirements due to optimizations in their code, but I would not hold my breath on this being the case...

I have no doubt that indoor areas would work fine, it is the outdoor I believe are where we most likely will notice this.
I do not expect the Horizon part and flying our ships in space will be affected, but if they update stations interiors, this could increase the requirements in this part.


So I do believe we will see a drop on performance on previous gen consoles, as I believe they have added more details in various places, and even if they try to reduce this on consoles and low end PC machines, I doubt they will be able to negate all this. But I do not expect this to be as bad as Cyberpunk 2077, where you have alot of details, Odyssey seems very plain in comparison, and I doubt we will be able to walk from the interior of a station to the outside, as everything sofar have hinted at we will have to visit an "airlock" and choose to exit the station and then have a, hopefully, short loading screen, and you are outside, just like how leaving/entering your ship on foot appears to be...
Indoor areas are easier to optimize to reach performance goal, like a minimum frame rate, compared to outdoor areas.
So where I expect to see problems are outdoor areas, with ships in the air, etc. and I expect it to be even worse when do combat with other players in the same instance...




Of course this is just my own speculations on this matter, and I can be totally wrong here....

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Limiting your audience to top end machines ultimately limits the scope of the game.

cough Star Citizen cough

 

[Pigletslastand]

Thank you @Wrecked that's great info you brought to the table there and visually described what I was thinking.. you said it much better than I but thanks for the great info.
Would love to hear fdev comment on this!

 

[Northpin]

Seems very unlikely. In that case they could make the $$$ in this year by pushing the standard version this financial year and working on the next-gen in peace for 6 months. Much more likely it is issues with devs getting access to Console Dev Kits (as other studios have mentioned in reasons for game delays).

Edit: Or fdev is evil and just hates consoles - as some seem to think

I dont think they will ask money for the version supporting the nextgen consoles - hence the delays. Working "pro bono" means very low priority

 

[Factabulous]

I dont think they will ask money for the version supporting the nextgen consoles - hence the delays. Working "pro bono" means very low priority

Well yeah, which is why I can't see them delaying the (money making) DLC for PS4/Xbox for that reason But fdev are inscrutable, so maybe

 

[thistle]

I'm aware, just pointing out that base consoles exceed minumum PC spec - those PCs will also see dips in performance I imagine when in stations or on planets too.

They do.

 

[Northpin]

However, from that Digital Foundry video... the console performance in Horizons becomes poor when going into anything with actual detail behind it. Odyssey is nothing but more detail, on par with or better than the current station graphics. Couple that with lighting improvements, geometry improvements, and new effects... I don't know, it'll be a surprise to not see performance drop to unplayable in certain situations.

I'm pretty sure they can tone down a lot more things that we might actually imagine.
Having less asteroids in a ring being one that never crossed my mind.

So pretty much they might go to having less detailed buildings, less rocks, crappier shadows and whatever is necessary to get the targeted FPS on last gen consoles.
Lets not forget their Cobra Engine is versatile enough to allow them to launch JWE on Nintendo Switch

 

[TheSisko]

I dont think they will ask money for the version supporting the nextgen consoles - hence the delays. Working "pro bono" means very low priority

They won't - they didn't when the patch for Xbox One X was released which fulfilled my 'iCutter in native 4K' dream. Most studios haven't chaged extra for next-gen console patches.

They do.

Expected. And while a uncooked, fresh potato could run this game at 60fps, at what resolution would that be? Compared to min. spec PCs, base consoles have 4 more CPU cores, faster clocks and support DX12 (or whatever the equivalent API is on PS4) vs DX11. If anything, the hardware for both base consoles are closer to the recommenced spec for PCs, with frame rate dropping in busy areas while maintaining 1080p output:

Does my computer meet the minimum requirements to run Elite Dangerous?

SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS Below you can find the minimum and recommended system requirements for Elite Dangerous as well as Elite Dangerous: Horizons on Windows.The system requirements for Elite Dangerou...

customersupport.frontier.co.uk

Our recommended requirements aim to produce an average of 60 frames-per-second at 1080p (1920x1080). This may fluctuate in more intensive areas and on planets (Horizons-only)

....which is exactly what's happening now as Digital Foundry and @Wrecked point out.

I'm pretty sure they can tone down a lot more things that we might actually imagine.
Having less asteroids in a ring being one that never crossed my mind.

So pretty much they might go to having less detailed buildings, less rocks, crappier shadows and whatever is necessary to get the targeted FPS on last gen consoles.
Lets not forget their Cobra Engine is versatile enough to allow them to launch JWE on Nintendo Switch

Plus they could reduce draw distance, use dynamic resolution scaling and reduce the number of NPCs outside settlement buildings - the latter would reduce the hit on the old Jaguar CPUs while the first two options would reduce the hit on GPUs

 

[pegasus912]

It can't be overstated just how weak the previous gen's CPUs (PS4/pro and Xbox one/XbX) are. They are as weak as netbook CPUs from 2012. I'm actually amazed at what some developers have been able to do with them. They do NOT meet the minimum spec on PC, GPU does sure but not the CPUs.

 

[CMDR D Noize]

Much more likely it is issues with devs getting access to Console Dev Kits (as other studios have mentioned in reasons for game delays).

I was literally about to say the exact same thing.

Only yesterday did I read an interview with CD Projekt Devs who said one of the main issues they had with the console versions of CP 2077 was limited access to Console Dev Kits due to Covid 19 restrictions in Poland over the last year.

Those Dev Kits cost thousands & thousands of Pounds so I can’t imagine FDevs management are going to let their staff take them home.
And seeing as the UK has gone into yet ANOTHER lockdown (cheers Bojo & Covidiots ) it probably means all they can do for now is sort out the PC version until their Devs can get back into the studio whenever that may be.

Being a “Console Peasant” myself the news of a massive delay was heartbreaking but unsurprising, I just hope it doesn’t get delayed any further