Create two versions of Open: One each for PvP (Enabled) & PvE (PvP Disabled)

Some players make suggestions - other players comment on suggestions, whether in favour or in opposition. As players, we don't all want the same things, yet we all bought (or backed) the same game. Some bought a game that suits them and are happy with it; some bought the game then realised that its design means that their preferred play-style is not possible so want it changed to suit them, with little or no regard to the players that would be affected by such changes.
Is it not curious that the objections to segregating the players who wish to just play PvE from the others who wish to do both PvP & PvE are coming from the latter group?
I'd have thought that they would welcome such a suggestion, unless, of course, their idea of PvP requires PvE players to present a suitable challenge - which appears somewhat odd. Splitting modes would also permit the removal of the block list (apart from Comms, of course) as players would be deliberately selecting their mode, rather than having the current compromise.

Perhaps the ones objecting most strongly prefer relatively harmless targets, which would be removed should the suggestion be put into practise?
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Is it not curious that the objections to segregating the players who wish to just play PvE from the others who wish to do both PvP & PvE are coming from the latter group?
I'd have thought that they would welcome such a suggestion, unless, of course, their idea of PvP requires PvE players to present a suitable challenge - which appears somewhat odd. Splitting modes would also permit the removal of the block list (apart from Comms, of course) as players would be deliberately selecting their mode, rather than having the current compromise.

Perhaps the ones objecting most strongly prefer relatively harmless targets, which would be removed should the suggestion be put into practise?
It's not really that surprising - given that there are those who consider that Solo and Private Groups should not exist and / or should have no effect on the galaxy. We all, however, bought a game where we all affect the galaxy and where playing among other players is optional.

Some insist that Open is for all players but players should just make a few changes to how they play the game to accommodate those who want to attack without a care whether the target has any fun in the encounter. This may well be acceptable to some players, however some other players have no interest in changing their game to accommodate those who want to engage them in PvP.

Whether or not Frontier chose to remove / change the block feature would remain to be seen - given that they've only strengthened its effects and made it easier to use over the years.
 
I've been recently playing Titanfall 2 on my Twitch channel (shameless plug), it's one of the most brutal, fast, no holds barred pvp shooters out there. (Vastly underrated and killed by EA, RIP, still has active playerbase to this day). And you know what? It has no friendly fire. Oh my god, muh immershun? I can literally shoot anything that moves, because if it's friendly, no harm will come to them. Destiny 2 - no friendly fire in 95% of the game (except Crucible). Oh my god, muh immershun? Warframe. No friendly fire. Overwatch - no friendly fire (and god do I wish FF existed in that game sometimes 😈 ). You can probably see where I'm going with that:

To all "muh immershun" guys... git gud with your feelsies, life's gonna get better for you.

As for "ingenious ways to grief", well I never particularly liked ramming as a tactic so I won't miss it at all. And the pad griefing etc. is really simple to solve, make stations the hubs they pitch for odyssey, safe / no fire zones, if someone tries to land at your hitbox, just nudge them to the side etc. etc. If they come up with more ingenious ways to grief, just plug them one by one as we go, and maybe handing bans in the process. Take the actual responsibility for managing the game. The popularity of Mobius shows clearly there is a huge need for a system like this. Question is, why wasn't it implemented yet? Costs? Unwillingness to put resources in? Numbers saying otherwise? [e.g. Open is 100x bigger then Mobius + solo for example?]

It's just a thought experiment. We know fully well that doesn't listen and doesn't want to get their hands dirty with their "MMOptional" moderation, and modes are sacred yadda yadda.

PS: I enjoyed PvP in pre-engineering times. Now I just can't be bothered, because I won't be slaving 20 days to rngesus to find some :poop: an engineer requires, and gimping my ship in the process, thus making everything even slower. I tried, and I don't like playing a second job after my daily one.

PS: PS: It's a GAME. About Pixel Spaceships. It's not a NASA grade simulator. It has p2p networking which is inferior, and a sleeve of balancing problems. Stop treating it like it's sacrum. It isn't. Your life won't stop if this changes. Armageddon won't come. Cows will still give milk. Etc. Git gud and grow up 😂
 
Also it's a bit...telling that the only player interaction in open that's described on this forum is player vs player violence. Not players grouping to collaborate on objectives or any of the normal things done in every other online game.

Far more a reflection of the forums than the actual game, where such collaboration, organic and otherwise, is common place...even in the absence of 3rd party organizational tools (which I rarely use).

And this shouldn't be surprising. People come to places like this primarily to complain about what they don't like, which also shouldn't be surprising, because there is little point in lauding what's good and what one doesn't think needs to be fixed...unless someone comes along and suggests the activities you've spent literally thousands of hours doing somehow can't happen.

I can log on, go to any well trafficked in-game area, and find a couple of total strangers who would be willing to go off on some adventure; head to a popular RES and wing up with some people to bounty hunt; or go to some of the closer Guardian ruin sites and find people looking to unlock some blueprints or salvage materials who would appreciate some company...etc and so forth. Or, I can ask any of the people online on my friends list (who are mostly on there because our CMDRs met while pursuing convergent goals some time in the past, and is large enough for there to almost be people available) if they need a hand with anything they're up to, and few of them will refuse.

Most of the people who deny that these things exist or think they are minority interactions are mostly avoiding Open and have very little basis for their idea of what goes on. They either put too much stock in external sources of sensationalism, or they had a few unpleasant experiences that colored the rest of their interactions negatively...you can see these types in system chat spouting of accusatory paranoia from other modes (it's the main reason I moved system chat to a separate tab).

Is it not curious that the objections to segregating the players who wish to just play PvE from the others who wish to do both PvP & PvE are coming from the latter group?
I'd have thought that they would welcome such a suggestion, unless, of course, their idea of PvP requires PvE players to present a suitable challenge - which appears somewhat odd. Splitting modes would also permit the removal of the block list (apart from Comms, of course) as players would be deliberately selecting their mode, rather than having the current compromise.

Perhaps the ones objecting most strongly prefer relatively harmless targets, which would be removed should the suggestion be put into practise?

I see three primary assertions here, and I don't think any of them are well founded ones.

I doubt most people fall into either group mentioned and those that do would primarily be coming from the former group, because the game, as it exists now, has a Open mode that does not try to segregate PvP from non-PvP activities. The block functionality also wasn't intended as a PvP filter, so it's presence has little to do with any proposed mode setup. And the people objecting aren't necessarily looking for targets at all.

And you know what? It has no friendly fire. Oh my god, muh immershun? I can literally shoot anything that moves, because if it's friendly, no harm will come to them. Destiny 2 - no friendly fire in 95% of the game (except Crucible). Oh my god, muh immershun? Warframe. No friendly fire. Overwatch - no friendly fire (and god do I wish FF existed in that game sometimes 😈 ). You can probably see where I'm going with that

None of these games try to simulate credible worlds/settings and aren't at all analogous to Elite: Dangerous.

Even my tabletop AD&D game is closer to Elite than any of those titles...in that I'm trying to create a world for player characters to explore and interact with, where a modicum of internal consistency is important to that depiction. I generally expect the party of PCs to be allies and to not kill each other, but I wouldn't dream of making the 33k cubic feet of white hot flame unleashed by a fireball not burn those foolish enough to be caught in it, or the arrow loosed by a jumpy character at some shadow in the dark not be able to harm that shadow because it turns out it was another PC.

Even in the sorts of games you refer to, I wouldn't play in a FF-off server had I the option to do otherwise, as it would remove constraints that are important to the experience I'd be looking for. I might expect those who deliberately attack teammates without cause to be banned, but the effects enabled by FF are critical and cannot be omitted without radically changing (and in my case degrading) the experience.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
The block functionality also wasn't intended as a PvP filter, so it's presence has little to do with any proposed mode setup.
Is it, however, suitable to remove players who persist in PvP actions against a player from their instance in Open, noting Sandro's comments on the topic just before the game was launched:
Hello Commanders!

In this instance, blocking the Commander might prove quite useful.

When you block somebody, a couple of things should happen.

Firstly, you will receive no communications from them.

Secondly, during any transition where matchmaking is at work (so basically, hyperspace jumps, entering and exiting super cruise) you are much less likely to be matched with the blocked Commander.

Blocking becomes weaker when it comes up against friends (and next year, player wings), because if a blocked Commander is in the same session as a friend (say, because they haven't blocked the Commander, the blocking effect is overruled by the friendship matchmaking.

Outside of this case though, blocking should work fine.
.... and the block feature has only ever been strengthened and made easier to use since then.
 
I see three primary assertions here, and I don't think any of them are well founded ones.

I doubt most people fall into either group mentioned and those that do would primarily be coming from the former group, because the game, as it exists now, has a Open mode that does not try to segregate PvP from non-PvP activities. The block functionality also wasn't intended as a PvP filter, so it's presence has little to do with any proposed mode setup. And the people objecting aren't necessarily looking for targets at all.
So, ignoring the 'primary assertions' that you believe are in contradiction to your perception - as I am obviously presenting observations from my own perception...

Block appears to be used willy-nilly to prevent unwanted PvP interaction if one takes any notice of the comments made on this very forum - this may not be its design purpose, but apparently 'common useage' is exactly that - that players not wishing to participate in PvP but still wishing to enjoy the social potential of open will mould their game experience using this function.

We play this game differently and our perceptions of the game world differ, I present the game I see - does that make my perception incorrect?
 
Most of this debate is a yawn from me, but I'll comment on one point which I consider interesting...

I'm pretty certain that FD do intend Block to be used as a PvP filter. They've known for years that the game has a gank image problem. Traditional MMO solutions would be a PvE world or a PvP flag. Instead of doing either of those, they instead supported Mobius in creating larger and larger PGs until the present limit was reached; it's probably now limited by server capability. This was essentially outsourcing the problem and has the downsides which come from that: Mobius admins have inadequate admin tools and can make mistakes; they're also not directly answerable to FD.

Alongside this, FD chose to beef up the block function by making it control instancing. Most recent tweaks have involved fixing what they've called "edge cases", making the effect on instancing more certain. A couple of years ago a dev (I forget the name) actually recommended Block for this. It all looks very intentional and this accords with FD's view of the single galaxy offering different game experiences through instancing options.

I consider all this unsatisfactory and wish that they'd bite the bullet and use one of the better known MMO solutions: PvE mode or PvP flag. I'd prefer the mode for immersion. Whatever; I'm sure what we have is intentional as far as it goes, rather than just a case of players finding out that they can use Block in this way.
 
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Block appears to be used willy-nilly to prevent unwanted PvP interaction if one takes any notice of the comments made on this very forum - this may not be its design purpose, but apparently 'common useage' is exactly that - that players not wishing to participate in PvP but still wishing to enjoy the social potential of open will mould their game experience using this function.

Block can be used for any reason, or none.

Removing one of many de facto uses for it wouldn't likely prompt Frontier to reconsider it's inclusion. Even if Open were split, I'd expect blocking to be frequently used in both of the modes you've proposed.

We play this game differently and our perceptions of the game world differ, I present the game I see - does that make my perception incorrect?

You may not be seeing the game as clearly or completely as you assume. Think of the allegory of the cave, or the blind men and the elephant.

We all have our subjective perspectives and biases, but that doesn't make all of them equal.
 
I've been recently playing Titanfall 2 on my Twitch channel (shameless plug), it's one of the most brutal, fast, no holds barred pvp shooters out there.

Is that you playing odysee?

Can you really see people doing that in elite? Wow, it will be a different place around here that's for sure.

Yeah i haven't played a fps since infinite warfare... lol what is this odysee?? I'm really keen to see how they go even fitting that into the elite universe. How it feels and how it looks. Its a spaceship game...
 
Is that you playing odysee?
No, that would be cmdr Thrust from Bradford 😁 I am only a humble Titan pilot 🙂. If they include a decent sniper rifle in Odyssey then I may or may not shoot from cover, shouting in the system chat "if you won't implement VR properly I will be shooting people in the face repeatedly" with each kill 😂

As for Odyssey I still think the majority of the shooting will be PvE, like in Destiny, with PvP in selected areas. Also if Odyssey has mechs and wallrunning, I might even get over lack of VR 🤣

To answer your more serious question - no, I don't think it will be a regular PvP warzone everywhere. Titanfall 2 matches are very structured, here you would just have a wild west kinda situation? Also there will be no-fire-zone hubs as we know. We will have to wait and see.

PS: no, SRV does not count as "mech" 😂
 
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I come from an EVE background and I like the idea of a single, persistent universe where PvE and PvP happen at once. I do understand that some people do not want that and I wouldn't dare force them into it or tell them that they're wrong.

This somewhere in between stance that ED has taken is the thing I don't actually like. In my opinion, the devs should decide which direction the game needs to take and man up to it. Unless this is the direction they want of course..
 
This somewhere in between stance that ED has taken is the thing I don't actually like. In my opinion, the devs should decide which direction the game needs to take and man up to it. Unless this is the direction they want of course..
Their direction is firmly "blaze your own trail". Want to play ED the way of the old games ? Solo is for you. Want to interact with other humans, no matter what that interaction might look like ? Open is for you. Want to interact with other humans, but shape the interactions in a certain way ? Private group or the blocklist are for you. All modes are equal, your actions matter the same way in regards to the galaxy, no matter which mode you choose. Player choice and player freedom. The freedom of one player ends where the freedom of another starts.
 
Their direction is firmly "blaze your own trail". Want to play ED the way of the old games ? Solo is for you. Want to interact with other humans, no matter what that interaction might look like ? Open is for you. Want to interact with other humans, but shape the interactions in a certain way ? Private group or the blocklist are for you. All modes are equal, your actions matter the same way in regards to the galaxy, no matter which mode you choose. Player choice and player freedom. The freedom of one player ends where the freedom of another starts.
I see this as important. ED really appeals to widely different types of player. It therefore has a much bigger player base and is better funded than either a solo game or a player-combat-only game could have had. To get the game we have now and improvements we hope for, we need each other.
 
Their direction is firmly "blaze your own trail". Want to play ED the way of the old games ? Solo is for you. Want to interact with other humans, no matter what that interaction might look like ? Open is for you. Want to interact with other humans, but shape the interactions in a certain way ? Private group or the blocklist are for you. All modes are equal, your actions matter the same way in regards to the galaxy, no matter which mode you choose. Player choice and player freedom. The freedom of one player ends where the freedom of another starts.
Which is fair and I do like, but then how do we balance the needs of the different player groups. Take this specific thread and the one about the shield boosters as an example. While I understand that you can't make everyone happy, you should at least strive for most of the players. This decision to have separate instances for different players seems to exacerbate some, in my opinion unfounded, internal divisions.
 

Robert Maynard

Volunteer Moderator
Which is fair and I do like, but then how do we balance the needs of the different player groups.
Players who prefer PvP need player targets. The same cannot necessarily be said of those who prefer PvE as they may completely eschew PvP. How can those needs be balanced?
 
Players who prefer PvP need player targets. The same cannot necessarily be said of those who prefer PvE as they may completely eschew PvP. How can those needs be balanced?
We can't, really. My experience over the past 7 years is that it's the PvP players that eventually get bored and leave. Not all, but many. Some were originally PvE players that turned to PvP because they got bored of PvE, some were always primarily PvP. The game's instancing doesn't help the cause much either.
 
We really aren't, you know. That's a popular idea spread by the PvP enthusiasts ascribing it to others, but no-one is saying that.

Are you sure? In a recent thread started by a new player who wants to play in Open, there was lots of good advice (from other PvE players on how to navigate Open safely), but also the fully expected 'Block everyone with an FSDi' and these gems..

"Starbrow said: Open Play is basically PvP server. Why would you go there, as a new player? Of course you will get PKed on every corner. No one go's there solo."
(note: after being called out this poster edited their posts and changed their forum name)

And...

" You can gear up, skill up, hiwake away from where you intended to go - but there really is no Open PVE in Elite Dangerous.
...
The last 5 times I have logged in engaging in PVE activities in Open, I have had a pvp encounter
."

It may not have appeared in this thread (yet), but it's always out there.
 
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