Shield Booster Diminishing Returns- Stop the Stack

[Elpapo]

There we go again....


PVE'ers are fine with current state of shield stackin since its makin them feel OP, and they are not as easy to gank, thanks to it. I can understood them. But...
PVP'ers, on other hand, some are fine with it since they can use TC meta in order to counter that insane shielding.... yet, they are narrowed only to very few bulids.... and thats where problem arise, since they might not remeber or being too new to experince variety of PVP that elite once had. This is kind of big problem, since if someone have wanna do PVP, there is not much of choice to play with. Not everyone wanna fly primatics 5 booster FDL with just PA's in order to be competitive, its very limited in my eyes, yet if wanna PVP, since its main meta, cant use anything else, or have to rely on wing otherwise.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Right ... so why not have a PvP-only server where all engineering is removed and then the rest of us can get on with our lives?

You must have missed the part about PvE.

 

[tolm]

You must have missed the part about PvE.

Er, wasn’t the original post about it taking 23 minutes to take down a CMDRs shields?

Or have I got my threads confused? That’s very possible ...

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

The point is that any perceived issue with the current meta is ENTIRELY within the control of the PvP community to change. If you want quicker matches with no engineering ... the game will allow you to do that.

Without removing the option to engineer the cr@p out of ships for those that also want to do that.

What is being proposed here is to remove choice for other people simply because another set of people won’t/can’t make a grown-up decision for themselves and feel they - and everyone else - should instead be forced into it.

Nonsense. The bulletsponge is already there in the AI environment. Because of engineering and its ridiculous range of improvements.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Er, wasn’t the original post about it taking 23 minutes to take down a CMDRs shields?

Or have I got my threads confused? That’s very possible ...

It's "only" 5-10 minutes vs NPC but the problem is the same.

 

[DemiserofD]

Well, it seems like the first fix that should be made is to nerf Thermal Conduit. That will make the problem very clear, which will require it being fixed. You definitely won't want to nerf shields but leave TC as it is, or things will get extremely broken in very short order.

Frankly, a 60% damage bonus on an experimental effect is pretty bonkers. I find it hard to understand how such massive bonuses keep slipping through the cracks.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

Nonsense. The bulletsponge is already there in the AI environment. Because of engineering and its ridiculous range of improvements.

That's not true. Player power and AI ship power could be mutually exclusive, they don't HAVE to be relational. That was simply a choice.

I think Elite level and Dangerous level NPC's could have their HP toned down a bit, or at least we could have that conversation. But for everything else? They aren't bullet spongy at all. Of course I use Engineering instead of spending years on forums crying about Engineers, so mileage will vary

 

[Brrokk]

Nonsense. The bulletsponge is already there in the AI environment. Because of engineering and its ridiculous range of improvements.

Unless you're referring to SpecOps ships in CZs, this is incorrect.

 

[photomankc]

How long do you want to shoot at someone's shields? 1 minute? 2 minutes? 10 minutes?

https://s.orbis.zone/coue (My build)
This build can handle 23 minutes of 200 mostly absolute damage per second coming at it. The counters to waiting 30 minutes to drop the shields is to use Reverb Torps or Mines, both of which can be countered easily, or building a super DPS machine like this (https://s.orbis.zone/couj) that has 1200 DPS a second yet still takes a minimum of 8 whole minutes of overheating to drop the shields. Nobody wants to fight for upwards of forty minutes.

This one can handle again, 22+ minutes of constant damage per second, with the only counters better DPS or reverb cascade torpedoes or mines. Nobody wants to fight for 40 minutes.

This is not fun; who wants to wait 30-45 (accounting for breaks while in jousting, etc.) minutes to drop the shields on a cutter? I propose a solution; Make the shield booster and engineering have greatly increased yields for the first 2-4 boosters, (depending on ship) but exponentially decrease returns for the rest. This is to give greater incentive to players to take advantage of other utilities, and to give greater diversity. Fdev could even use this to create new content, like new combat utilities that can be used for certain things. Second, if implemented correctly, this change would drastically change the abnormally high kill times for ships of large and medium sizes, and allow for quicker, yet still long enough battles.

Hypothetical shield booster values:
1a G5 HD
1x +55%
2x +60%
3x +64%
4x +50%
5x +39%
6x +24%
7x + 20%
8x +12.5%
Even this may not be enough to stop the shield meta, since a 200% increase in shields with 4 boosters is still extremely high.

So don't fight Cutters. Like don't take a technical to try to shoot through an Abrams. You'll either need the rest of the gun barrel's useful life, the likely shorter measurement of the rest of your life, or specialty weapons meant to open the tin can.




ETA: The bigs should be hard as heck to work through. It should be a multiplayer endeavor to peel them open. The Cutter's reason to exist is to be a shield monster. Its compromised in nearly everything else so that it can be that. It's also a roving mass-lock that's a PITA to get away from so a pirate's friend. I honestly wouldn't have a hissy over diminishing returns on the boosters or limits of one SCB, or limits of HRP in non-military ships. To me, filling the entire ship with reinforced concrete so you can ram your opponent to death is just as absurd as the all boosters and SCBs shield tanks.

Of course I also believe there's no way you should be able to hold Fed/Imp/Alliance ranks all at the same time. That missiles should actually be a concern and be far more scarce to carry. That no way in this galaxy should you be able to land and take off from 4G worlds and above. So I have some unpopular opinions too.

I really think so many things are now out of kilter including the speed at which everyone can be in a cutter/vette/conda that it makes these problems more glaring. Sorta like making a GTA like MMO game but everyone in it drives a Brinks armored truck because it's available to everyone in the first 5 hours. If it can't reasonably be jacked then everyone will be driving them. Does that mean that armored cars should be easy to pop or maybe something else is wrong?

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

Unless you're referring to SpecOps ships in CZs, this is incorrect.

My first and only death in my Vette was from a threat level 6 Elite pirate in an FDL. Now that was a bullet sponge!

I too get frustrated at times with NPC HP but hard stuff is meant to be hard. Plus it's pushing me to better myself like joining PP for some Cytoscramblers and hammers etc etc.

 

[Rat Catcher]

The point is that any perceived issue with the current meta is ENTIRELY within the control of the PvP community to change. If you want quicker matches with no engineering ... the game will allow you to do that.

When I mentioned that all i got was being berated by the 'elite' crowd as why should someone deliberately 'nerf' their ship...

You must have missed the part about PvE.

You could play on that unengineered server also, you know...

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

There we go again....


PVE'ers are fine with current state of shield stackin since its makin them feel OP, and they are not as easy to gank, thanks to it. I can understood them. But...
PVP'ers, on other hand, some are fine with it since they can use TC meta in order to counter that insane shielding.... yet, they are narrowed only to very few bulids.... and thats where problem arise, since they might not remeber or being too new to experince variety of PVP that elite once had. This is kind of big problem, since if someone have wanna do PVP, there is not much of choice to play with. Not everyone wanna fly primatics 5 booster FDL with just PA's in order to be competitive, its very limited in my eyes, yet if wanna PVP, since its main meta, cant use anything else, or have to rely on wing otherwise.

So instead of nerfing EVERYONE with a shield nerf, just buff weapons. I mean it's clear that Engineering has benefited defenses more than offensive equipment. So the simplest solution is to bring weapons back up. Starting with the sorry state our "sci fi" laser weapons are in currently.

It fixes everything. New players won't struggle so much with NPC HP bloat, and maybe you PVP guys will give us all a break on here as well.

 

[DemiserofD]

So instead of nerfing EVERYONE with a shield nerf, just buff weapons. I mean it's clear that Engineering has benefited defenses more than offensive equipment. So the simplest solution is to bring weapons back up. Starting with the sorry state our "sci fi" laser weapons are in currently.

It fixes everything. New players won't struggle so much with NPC HP bloat, and maybe you PVP guys will give us all a break on here as well.

Doesn't make much sense to buff every weapon in the game, rather than just nerfing one experimental effect and one module.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

Doesn't make much sense to buff every weapon in the game, rather than just nerfing one experimental effect and one module.

Makes perfect sense. Think, think hard about it.

People HATE nerfs. People have spent dozens and hundreds of hours building the ships you are talking about obliterating overnight. We can achieve the EXACT same goal, however, with buffs. Which everyone loves.

So why would you want the nerfs? It's just out of spite, that's why.

 

[DemiserofD]

Makes perfect sense. Think, think hard about it.

People HATE nerfs. People have spent dozens and hundreds of hours building the ships you are talking about obliterating overnight. We can achieve the EXACT same goal, however, with buffs. Which everyone loves.

So why would you want the nerfs? It's just out of spite, that's why.

I mean, if you think about it, the result on the players getting nerfed are the same either way.

Either way, their effectiveness compared to other ships will go down. Just in one version, the devs spend hours tweaking the stats of dozens of modules, and in the other, they spend a few minutes tweaking the stats of two modules.

Logically speaking, a nerf is the right way to go.

 

[Starshot_Jigawatts]

I mean, if you think about it, the result on the players getting nerfed are the same either way.

Either way, their effectiveness compared to other ships will go down. Just in one version, the devs spend hours tweaking the stats of dozens of modules, and in the other, they spend a few minutes tweaking the stats of two modules.

Logically speaking, a nerf is the right way to go.

I don't play a space game for logic. I play it to have fun and to be rewarded. Nothing your ideas do for me, at all. Because I don't care about your PVP concerns.

My idea is win-win for everyone. Yours is a win-lose. No thanks.

 

[DemiserofD]

I don't play a space game for logic. I play it to have fun and to be rewarded. Nothing your ideas do for me, at all. Because I don't care about your PVP concerns.

My idea is win-win for everyone. Yours is a win-lose. No thanks.

Lets walk through this slowly, okay? I want to make sure there are no misunderstandings.

Case one: We buff every module and weapon. For example, C1 Beam Lasers go from 7 DPE to 11 DPE, and from 7.9 DPS to 12 DPS.

You do this to every module in the game, EXCEPT for Shield Boosters and weapons with Thermal Conduit. They remain unchanged.

This means that, compared to other weapons in the game, Shield Boosters and weapons with Thermal Conduit will be about 33% worse than before.

Case two: We nerf Shield Boosters and weapons with Thermal Conduit by about 33%.

Result: Shield boosters and weapons with Thermal Conduit will be about 33% worse than before.

Do you see that either option has exactly the same end result?

 

[Rat Catcher]

Or we just leave the nerf hammer at home and let the PvP community sort out their own ills?

Despite how terrible it sounds, the player can actually control the 'strength' of their builds... It takes a great deal of courage, obviously, to ignore the meta...

They won't 'nerf' their builds, but want everyone to suffer a 'nerf' because they are upset?

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

I don't play a space game for logic. I play it to have fun and to be rewarded. Nothing your ideas do for me, at all. Because I don't care about your PVP concerns.

My idea is win-win for everyone. Yours is a win-lose. No thanks.

In this case the nerf is necessary. Buffing weapons instead would only increase the disparity between full engineering and vanilla, which is worse enough already.

 

[Rat Catcher]

In this case the nerf is necessary

But only for PvP players...