Allow the VR '2D screen' to be disabled?

[VR Golgot]

Hello lovely devs!

This suggestion is based on some major assumptions, but it would be great if it were possible.

Initial Assumptions:

• That the stereoscopic render used for ships & SRVs in EDO functions in Legs mode.
• That the 2D screen mode for Legs can be set to toggle on or off.

Suggestion:

Allow players to set the 2D projected screen to 'off' by altering an option file. (In the same way that players can alter their HUD colours by editing the existing XML file, for example.)


Advantages of this approach:

• It could allow very basic VR access to EDO Legs, prior to full official support.
• Only the most dedicated EDVR players would learn of it and want to try it.
• It's a very clear 'opt in' process, where you can't do it by mistake
• It wouldn't be an officially launched or marketed function.
• It would hopefully require a low level of dev work & support at this stage.

Caveats:

I'm sure there are a ton of other considerations which might conflict with this idea (technical stability, impacts on non-VR players) and so make it a non-starter.

And the experience for the VR player would clearly be very rough, even if it were to prove even partially functional. (It would only work for those with their 'VR legs', would doubtless have real issues with UI, and would be unlikely to facilitate full EDO gameplay by any means).


Reasons to do it:

If this system allowed those of us with our 'VR legs' to take in the scale of our ships from the outside, or appreciate a station NPC 'in the round', or even do some basic exploration using classic controls, this would be a massive boon for the veteran EDVR community. The current pause in access to EDVR content is an unusual circumstance. This unusual approach could perhaps act as a temporary bridge to fuller, official support.

---

EDIT: A guesstimate of what might be possible:

Spoiler

• First Person: Headlook Solutions
  • Opentrack could allow us to use native headlook support (IE TrackIR etc).
    • This could be useful if VR headlook doesn't track the character, or if it is tied to the aiming reticule alone [?]
    • If EDO has extensive TrackIR settings for FPS gameplay, this could definitely help.
    • See these examples from another game: menu options 1 / menu options 2 / gameplay).

• First Person: Quality of Life
  • If the core game includes no-HUD options for first person gameplay, that could be helpful.
    • (Classic on-screen UI tends to appear very close to the face in VR, making it uncomfortable for eye accommodation etc.)

• Third Person: Vanity Cam
  • Could be the most comfortable experience.
  • Camera view should be able to track with the character.
  • (NB the vanity cam is getting adapted to work on foot).
  • Not designed for gameplay, but could work for exploring environments.
  • EDIT: Already possible in the alpha!

Any knowledgeable dev or VR heads, please do chip in if you see errors, or other positives / negatives to add

 

[VR andysonofbob]

Hey dude!

Obvs a big +1 from me!

You might want to pre-empt/debunk/address the usual VR advantages vs pancake in FPS concerns that will no doubt ensue?

 

[VR Golgot]

Hey dude!

Obvs a big +1 from me!

You might want to pre-empt/debunk/address the usual VR advantages vs pancake in FPS concerns that will no doubt ensue?

Cheers man

Yeah I kind of left it vague in the OP ('impacts on non-VR players'), but it's a good one to hash out in the thread.

We don't need to have the classic 'are motion controllers better/worse than mouse aiming' debate, as this wouldn't involve their addition. Controller options would be the same for all.

So that just leaves headlook...

Would head-clipping or unusual viewing angles confer any kind of advantage?

In terms of 'competitive advantage' I suspect that answer is no. VR players would doubtless have massive competitive PvP disadvantages, in terms of UI being inaccessible or obscuring vision. (Which is why a no-HUD option may be preferable for the in-game display). And in terms of headlook likely being tied to the aiming hand (which is pretty disorientating, even if doesn't make you nauseous). So even if we were able to peak around corners, or clip our head into safe spaces to deny head-shots, or peer through walls, I really doubt we'd be particularly efficacious on the field.

Too many unknowns right now...

Worst case you could imagine a VR player acting as an intel gatherer of sorts. But ultimately we need to see the full feature set in the alpha to truly know if there are any advantages to be had. (And to know exactly what functionality basic legs + VR access would involve.)

Like, I could see a scenario where the 'sphere of combat' has objectives ('get the passcode', then 'disable the defences'), where clipping your head through a wall could bypass stages and cause an issue. And equally, if EDO features 'locked door' spoilers or puzzles, where if we can shove our head through the door, that could also be a problem. But it's all conjectural at this point. And theoretically resolvable using the existing clipping 'black out' function from the vanity camera?

 

[Old Duck]

I thought this was about forcing a 2D representation of what I'm seeing in VR onto my laptop screen (which seems a waste of GPU to me), and I was ready to say, "YES!". I have zero need to have anything on a physical flat screen that I can't see anyway, and I'll take all the spare GPU I can get for VR.

 

[Arioch]

We’re asking for what is essentially the mouse-look to be tied to our viewpoint, correct?

If that’s what we ask for, and everything else is the same as the flatscreen game, then I can’t see any “VR-advantage” complaints. Ensure that the player’s avatar is stuck below the headset position (so no wandering away from your headless body) and I think you’ve solved any “scouting” worries - any attempt at ghosting though surfaces would result in a stuck view as the avatar meets collision detection. It’d also mean only having the standing/crouching heights via controls - any attempt at physically ducking would otherwise mean our heads sinking into our chests

 

[VR Golgot]

We’re asking for what is essentially the mouse-look to be tied to our viewpoint, correct?

Sorry, just to clarify the pitch...

The main ask from my perspective is this:
Allow the native VR render view for the otherwise unchanged EDO gameplay. (On the understanding that it's doable via low dev resourcing, and so is inkeeping with the current 'not ready to dedicate to full VR support and dev').

But yeah, my understanding is the result would likely be that the VR view would be tied to the camera norms of the flatscreen game. IE our VR view would turn with the aiming reticule. (Whether steered by mouse of controller stick).

And yeah, if they could implement a head fix fairly painlessly, then that would fix the head-clipping issue too

 

[Arioch]

But yeah, my understanding is the result would likely be that the VR view would be tied to the camera norms of the flatscreen game. IE out VR view would turn with the aiming reticule. (Whether steered by mouse of controller stick).

Just to clarify - is what you’re asking for going to be like the SRV turret, ie. you can look around with VR freedom but if you want to move the aiming reticule then you have to use standard controls? Or will our viewpoints be “fixed” and could only be moved by mouse or controller?

Personally, I’d rather have the reticule tied to where I’m looking - so like HMD relative direction movement in other VR games (even though I prefer controller relative if it’s available). The one time I tried PSVR was with DOOM and a PS4 controller - I thought “headguns!” due to my characters arms being tied to where I was looking, but I’d be very happy if we got something similar with EDO

 

[VR andysonofbob]

Just to clarify - is what you’re asking for going to be like the SRV turret, ie. you can look around with VR freedom but if you want to move the aiming reticule then you have to use standard controls? Or will our viewpoints be “fixed” and could only be moved by mouse or controller?

I would like this, that would be awesome in fact.

But I would be happy for even less as a test case, as in have 'aim' linked to mouse/hotas/controller controls (however it is done for pancake). So the only change is the addition of a standard-for-VR barrelled stereoscopic view instead of the cinema view that is currently planned.

That would be enough for me.

 

[Arioch]

I would like this, that would be awesome in fact.

But I would be happy for even less as a test case, as in have 'aim' linked to mouse/hotas/controller controls (however it is done for pancake). So the only change is the addition of a standard-for-VR barrelled stereoscopic view instead of the cinema view that is currently planned.

That would be enough for me.

If we can enable 3D for the non-VR flatscreen game (like we can do now with the SBS option) I’ll be pleased, especially if it can be enabled for the in-helmet cinema mode screen*.

If not in-helmet, I’ve got a 3DTV that will do

*Edit: I’ve tried this with Crysis 2 in SBS mode with BigScreen and it felt pretty good. Nothing like full fat immersion VR, but still pretty cool.

 

[VR Golgot]

Just to clarify - is what you’re asking for going to be like the SRV turret, ie. you can look around with VR freedom but if you want to move the aiming reticule then you have to use standard controls? Or will our viewpoints be “fixed” and could only be moved by mouse or controller?

My suspicion is that the SRV turrets are a designed solution, and that this basic fix might involve VR view being entirely tied to the camera inputs. But it’s just a half-educated guess at this point (Based on existing games with buried native VR which got activated etc)

Personally, I’d rather have the reticule tied to where I’m looking - so like HMD relative direction movement in other VR games (even though I prefer controller relative if it’s available). The one time I tried PSVR was with DOOM and a PS4 controller - I thought “headguns!” due to my characters arms being tied to where I was looking, but I’d be very happy if we got something similar with EDO

Yeah some form of head-look aiming could be a very neat solution for now, for example. (And could have utility as a gameplay option for a released build). But I think we’re quickly sliding into requests which call for more dev than they’re prepared to commit. Probably best to keep expectations/requests as slimmed down as possible for now.

 

[Arioch]

My suspicion is that the SRV turrets are a designed solution, and that this basic fix might involve VR view being entirely tied to the camera inputs. But it’s just a half-educated guess at this point (Based on existing games with buried native VR which got activated etc)




Yeah some form of head-look aiming could be a very neat solution for now, for example. (And could have utility as a gameplay option for a released build). But I think we’re quickly sliding into requests which call for more dev than they’re prepared to commit. Probably best to keep expectations/requests as slimmed down as possible for now.

Ah, I’d probably not go for the static head view only moved by other controls. One of the major things in VR for me is having a right good look around

Even with my fairly well-developed VR-legs, I still feel a momentary whuurrrpp if my view ever freezes due to technical issues and doesn’t follow where my head is moving.

 

[VR Golgot]

Ah, I’d probably not go for the static head view only moved by other controls. One of the major things in VR for me is having a right good look around

Even with my fairly well-developed VR-legs, I still feel a momentary whuurrrpp if my view ever freezes due to technical issues and doesn’t follow where my head is moving.

Yeah free head-look is a major thing for me in VR. But I figure it’s a step by step thing. And a 'something is better than nothing' thing

(Given the other head-tracking tech supported like TrackIR etc I do wonder whether players might be able to finangle a solution in the interim, even if view is locked to controls initially).

 

[Dude McDongle]

+1 from me. Anything would be better than a floating 2d screen. Make it optional, lock the head in place and only give us free headlook similar to arma.

 

[Chaz]

This gets my vote, so +1 from me too.

I've played a good few classic FPS games like this, either through mods or Vorpx, seated with standard M&K controls and just free head look. So something similar for EDO would be great. To be honest that's all I've been wanting from the get go with this, as essentially that's mostly what we've got with ED at the moment anyway. Yes you need good VR legs for playing like this, but then quite a few other activities in ED in VR require good VR legs anyway. And by VR legs, I do of course mean that you have overcome your nausea issues with the movement. Just thought I'd clarify that, in case any non VR types get confused by what I meant.

Frontier have said that they didn't want to implement VR in EDO until they could be sure of doing something that's properly implemented. But I've always argued right from the start of this, that the VR implementation in ED as it stands is pretty basic and is far from being a fully fledged VR implementation. In fact it still has a lot of unaddressed bugs and problems as is. My keyboard and mouse still gets a lot of use during my ED VR sessions, by necessity. So I expect a similarly basic implementation in EDO, would probably be quite acceptable for the vast majority of current ED VR users.

I do understand where their reluctance to do something like this comes from though, as they would probably not want to or feel they would be able to then market it as having VR support, as new VR users might end up buying the game expecting a fully fledged VR experience. Would they feel comfortable having EDO on the Oculus Store for instance?

 

[VR Golgot]

To be honest that's all I've been wanting from the get go with this, as essentially that's mostly what we've got with ED at the moment anyway.

I'm just going to flag here that I do hope they go for a fuller Legs implementation, as they suggest they will. IE a more industry standard motion controller conversion.

(As much as I agree that the cockpit experience is 'headlook + UI' in many respects, it's still industry standard for a flight sim. Character gameplay requires a lot more dev to hit that quality baseline.)

I do understand where their reluctance to do something like this comes from though, as they would probably not want to or feel they would be able to then market it as having VR support, as new VR users might end up buying the game expecting a fully fledged VR experience. Would they feel comfortable having EDO on the Oculus Store for instance?

Yeah it's this basically.

As it stands EDO isn't on the Oculus store, and the Steam version isn't marked as VR-ready. (Unlike ED/Horizons). So they're clearly not marketing the current hybrid-VR version as VR-ready.

I reckon on those grounds having an early Legs option 'hidden in the files' could work. It'd act as fan service, without attracting new casual VR fans necessarily (who would feel underserved).

 

[VR Golgot]

Now with lovely signature banner for mild rabble rousing

 

[Chaz]

I'm just going to flag here that I do hope they go for a fuller Legs implementation, as they suggest they will. IE a more industry standard motion controller conversion.

As it stands EDO isn't on the Oculus store, and the Steam version isn't marked as VR-ready. (Unlike ED/Horizons). So they're clearly not marketing the current hybrid-VR version as VR-ready.

I reckon on those grounds having an early Legs option 'hidden in the files' could work. It'd act as fan service, without attracting new casual VR fans necessarily (who would feel underserved).

Totally, I of course also hope that at some point they do a proper more industry standard VR implementation, but then I've been hoping that for the past few years now. The cockpit would have been the best place to start with that though. Some thing like reach out and grab the controls NMS and VTOL VR style and being able to interact with the panels by touch would be great. So too would Minority Report style control of the Gal Map and System maps, oh and a virtual keyboard would not go amiss either.

The problem is that I don't see that happening any time soon, even after EDO's release. Unless they actually dedicate a small team of 2 or 3 to doing VR support, then there will always be something more important that needs doing by the development team at large than VR.

So right now I'll take any option that allows me to be in the game world with my boots on the ground in VR and not just some 2D screen. I want to be able to look up and see my ship or stand on a mountain top and look out over the surface of a moon at the rings of the near by gas giant its orbiting, all from a proper human scale. You can kind of do that with the free cam, but it's not really quite got that same level of presence as standing there in a suit would have, and it's often hard to gauge what your scale is with your surroundings.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

Hello lovely devs!

This suggestion is based on some major assumptions, but it would be great if it were possible.

Initial Assumptions:

• That the native VR support used for ships & SRVs in EDO functions in Legs mode.
• That the 2D screen mode for Legs can be set to toggle on or off.

Suggestion:

Allow players to set the 2D projected screen to 'off' by altering an option file. (In the same way that players can alter their HUD colours by editing the existing XML file, for example.)


Advantages of this approach:

• It could allow very basic VR access to EDO Legs, prior to full official support.
• Only the most dedicated EDVR players would learn of it and want to try it.
• It's a very clear 'opt in' process, where you can't do it by mistake
• It wouldn't be an officially launched or marketed function.
• It would hopefully require a low level of dev work & support at this stage.

Caveats:

I'm sure there are a ton of other considerations which might conflict with this idea (technical stability, impacts on non-VR players) and so make it a non-starter.

And the experience for the VR player would clearly be very rough, even if it were to prove even partially functional. (It would only work for those with their 'VR legs', would doubtless have real issues with UI, and would be unlikely to facilitate full EDO gameplay by any means).


Reasons to do it:

If this system allowed those of us with our 'VR legs' to take in the scale of our ships from the outside, or appreciate a station NPC 'in the round', or even do some basic exploration using classic controls, this would be a massive boon for the veteran EDVR community. The current pause in access to EDVR content is an unusual circumstance. This unusual approach could perhaps act as a temporary bridge to fuller, official support.

---

(PS, if you're considering some no-HUD options for EDO gameplay, that could also be helpful )

I'd like to see this happen PLease make it so, I'll give you all my easter eggs...

 

[Kyokushin]

Surely thats will be better than silly 2D flat screen projection in 3D VR helmet. Facegun like in Subnautica is enough for me in ED.

 

[Franc Kaos]

I reckon on those grounds having an early Legs option 'hidden in the files' could work. It'd act as fan service, without attracting new casual VR fans necessarily (who would feel underserved).

I would be ecstatic just to have this implementation; HMD as mouselook and firing reticule tied to game controller / M&K. Hidden switch in a text file somewhere so it couldn't be turned on without looking for it. Absolves Fdev having to support it and they can get on with more planet types / scoopable gas giants.
Plus PS5 is getting a new VR headset so - you never know...