General / Off-Topic The Covid vaccine must be mandatory ?

[Stigbob]

Apparently a not insignificant number of people were wearing the Star of David to show how their lockdown "persecution" is like what Jewish people suffered in the Holocaust.

Morons, their understanding of politics and history is as shaky as their scientific and medical knowledge. If they want lockdowns lifted they should be protesting against antivax psudoscience.

Never mind though thanks to those of us who are not dangerously thick we've hit the 50% vaccinated mark.

 

[Wotthe Dickens]

Re the london protest: According to a recent uk survey, 4/10 people believe our gov is untrustworthy (https://www.theguardian.com/politic...the-conservatives-are-untrustworthy-says-poll)
Am trying to not be political here, as all parties are guilty, but with this level of distrust, I guess I’m not really surprised that some will believe the opposite of what comes out of the politicians mouths- so along with some truths they believe a heap of nonsense too.
We can see around the world that our govs don’t really appear to hold our well-being at heart and the response to that is to doubt everything they say.
It’s a general distrust of our authorities which lead to these protests, maybe the best way to overcome this is for our govs to be held accountable for the untruths and to be transparent across the board.

 

[Stigbob]

Re the london protest: According to a recent uk survey, 4/10 people believe our gov is untrustworthy (https://www.theguardian.com/politic...the-conservatives-are-untrustworthy-says-poll)
Am trying to not be political here, as all parties are guilty, but with this level of distrust, I guess I’m not really surprised that some will believe the opposite of what comes out of the politicians mouths- so along with some truths they believe a heap of nonsense too.
We can see around the world that our govs don’t really appear to hold our well-being at heart and the response to that is to doubt everything they say.
It’s a general distrust of our authorities which lead to these protests, maybe the best way to overcome this is for our govs to be held accountable for the untruths and to be transparent across the board.

I know our government are untrustworthy Johnson was sacked for lying twice before he even ran for office it's sickening he's even allowed to be considered for it let alone got voted in.

With lockdowns they were too slow and went with "herd immunity" the most dangerous for the public and cheapest option effectively whats happening in India and Brazil. They told us masks didn't work to cover their shoddy preparedness whilst we now know they were setting up mask manufacturing contracts for themselves. Everything changed when Johnson caught covid and suddenly it wasn't just poor people dying but a risk to the posh dingbat himself. Tory governments in the UK have always collapsed under the weight of their own sleaze, this one is only different in that they killed thousands of us and upped the amount of money they skimmed for themselves by several orders of magnitude.

Lockdowns and vaccines are still a good idea though .

 

[Wotthe Dickens]

Lockdowns and vaccines are still a good idea though .

I know that, you know that, the majority know that.
But it doesn't stop a minority not believing that! :-D
Amongst the less orthodox friends I have, I've got a pretty intellegent engineering colleague with whom I chat with regularily and over the pandemic I've been kinda shocked at his beliefs regarding the source of covid and his denial of the numbers of people hospitalised with covid.
When asked for his evidence which contradicts what I believe to be scientific data, he sprouts a heap of theories, some of which could be close to the mark and others which are (to me) clearly rebuttable. When I ask him to explain his often contradictions, he jumps from one theory to the next, which I think you have pointed out previously as being a common trait with 'deniers'.
It's a very strange, I dunno, syndrome? I'm not a professional psychologist but I am quite empathetic and can see some sectors of society that have had years of being side-lined by every government going and appears to lead to an instinctive doubt that we are being told the truth.
As a sometimes wearing educator hat person, from kids through to doctorates, I strongly believe that 'levelling up' should start with equal opportunities and access to education, with critical thinking high up the agenda! But we really need to enstate a better method of inclusive government so that all people are represented and have their say.
We can see from this thread(s) that personal belief trumps scientific data, so I guess it's better to help people have the means to understand their beliefs objectively.
But damn, that's hard We don't need to look any further than religion to see how problematic it is for the human race to figure the facts :-D
How much do we value teachers? It seems we have our societal reward system topsyturvy!

 

[Arry]

I know that, you know that, the majority know that.
But it doesn't stop a minority not believing that! :-D
Amongst the less orthodox friends I have, I've got a pretty intellegent engineering colleague with whom I chat with regularily and over the pandemic I've been kinda shocked at his beliefs regarding the source of covid and his denial of the numbers of people hospitalised with covid.
When asked for his evidence which contradicts what I believe to be scientific data, he sprouts a heap of theories, some of which could be close to the mark and others which are (to me) clearly rebuttable. When I ask him to explain his often contradictions, he jumps from one theory to the next, which I think you have pointed out previously as being a common trait with 'deniers'.
It's a very strange, I dunno, syndrome? I'm not a professional psychologist but I am quite empathetic and can see some sectors of society that have had years of being side-lined by every government going and appears to lead to an instinctive doubt that we are being told the truth.
As a sometimes wearing educator hat person, from kids through to doctorates, I strongly believe that 'levelling up' should start with equal opportunities and access to education, with critical thinking high up the agenda! But we really need to enstate a better method of inclusive government so that all people are represented and have their say.
We can see from this thread(s) that personal belief trumps scientific data, so I guess it's better to help people have the means to understand their beliefs objectively.
But damn, that's hard We don't need to look any further than religion to see how problematic it is for the human race to figure the facts :-D
How much do we value teachers? It seems we have our societal reward system topsyturvy!

The first issue, is the 'a little knowledge' thing. As in, the teenagers think they know far more then their teachers.
The second issue, is giving these 'fools' an audience. You let them keep talking and think others are really listening and they will go on and on and on.
The third issue, is these fools, now have basically unrestricted access to millions, through their cheap P.C. screens.

 

[Stigbob]

I know that, you know that, the majority know that.
But it doesn't stop a minority not believing that! :-D
Amongst the less orthodox friends I have, I've got a pretty intellegent engineering colleague with whom I chat with regularily and over the pandemic I've been kinda shocked at his beliefs regarding the source of covid and his denial of the numbers of people hospitalised with covid.
When asked for his evidence which contradicts what I believe to be scientific data, he sprouts a heap of theories, some of which could be close to the mark and others which are (to me) clearly rebuttable. When I ask him to explain his often contradictions, he jumps from one theory to the next, which I think you have pointed out previously as being a common trait with 'deniers'.

It's called a gish gallop you spout so much nonsense so quickly nobody has time or can be bothered to fact check you on all the rubbish, anything that goes unchallenged is therefore claimed as proven. Named after a creationist called Duane Gish.

It's pretty much Alex Jones and the rest of the far rights entire schtick.

It's a very strange, I dunno, syndrome? I'm not a professional psychologist but I am quite empathetic and can see some sectors of society that have had years of being side-lined by every government going and appears to lead to an instinctive doubt that we are being told the truth.
As a sometimes wearing educator hat person, from kids through to doctorates, I strongly believe that 'levelling up' should start with equal opportunities and access to education, with critical thinking high up the agenda! But we really need to enstate a better method of inclusive government so that all people are represented and have their say.
We can see from this thread(s) that personal belief trumps scientific data, so I guess it's better to help people have the means to understand their beliefs objectively.
But damn, that's hard We don't need to look any further than religion to see how problematic it is for the human race to figure the facts :-D
How much do we value teachers? It seems we have our societal reward system topsyturvy!

Post truth society. It's convenient for people when they want to lie unchallenged but the rise of things like qanon show how truly dangerous it is. We need to teach critical thinking and fact checking at a basic school education level instead of leaving it to university only.

 

[StanleyDunkan]

 

[Stigbob]

And then what?
In UK people are already lining up for their 3rd short, same will be in US. And of cours every one else will follow.
Is this the end game? We replaced annual Flu with Covid shots?

Why can't we do it like in China and Taiwan? 90k cases / 4,6k dead after 16 month of Global Pandemic.
Why aren't we adapting Chinese model of fighting Covid? Their Economy didn't collpased after it. You don't see Chinise protesting on the streets. They sat quitly for few month, eradicated Covid from their country and now living happily ever after.
Why can't we get the same happy ever after end game?

People breach lockdowns ignore the hygiene advice think they are immune or it doesn't apply to them and think they know best leading to the virus spreading. We could eradicate the virus if we all followed the WHO's advice for a couple of weeks, it can't survive outside the body for long. We just have too many people getting it wrong or forcing others to get it wrong for various daft, criminal or just selfish reasons.

People in China do what they are told or else so it's much easier to implement. Elsewhere it's a matter of education which doesn't work at all on the really thick and comes from official sources which we all know can be really dodgy. You also have religions, political parties, scammers and cults all spreading rubbish about it.

So vaccines are about all the hope we have. It's probably here to stay just like polio.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Greece vaccinates the inhabitants of its islands to have the designation "Covid-free" for the tourists.

The goal is to create an immunity wall of 70% of the population to be able to welcome tourists.

"We will soon complete the vaccination on islands of less than a thousand inhabitants before accelerating the operation on the largest islands", said the secretary general of health insurance

Greek civil aviation last Monday lifted the mandatory seven-day quarantine - in effect until then - for travelers who are permanent residents of member countries of the European Union, the Schengen area, the United Kingdom, United States, Israel, Serbia and United Arab Emirates.

Visitors must have a vaccination certificate or a negative coronavirus test less than 72 hours old.

"The Identity 'Covid-Free' is a privilege for our island, and reassures the tourists", says hotel owner.

Conclusion : For all the tourists from the countries mentioned in this post (UK included), Greece will not ask for compulsory vaccination and there will be no quarantine for the people who have a negative Covid test.

Happy holidays everyone and long live democracy.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Visitors must have a vaccination certificate or a negative coronavirus test less than 72 hours old.

"The Identity 'Covid-Free' is a privilege for our island, and reassures the tourists", says hotel owner.

The cruise ships tried the same thing. Failed in 5 days.

The only way to be disease free is to vaccinate most/all of the population first, and then worry about the economy. Any success made here isn't because of political systems, it's because of the simple application of basic science.

So they are on the right track doing their population. What happens if 50% democratically refuse? Easy to predict. Democracy leads to failure if the people are not informed.

 

[Wotthe Dickens]

The first issue, is the 'a little knowledge' thing. As in, the teenagers think they know far more then their teachers.
The second issue, is giving these 'fools' an audience. You let them keep talking and think others are really listening and they will go on and on and on.
The third issue, is these fools, now have basically unrestricted access to millions, through their cheap P.C. screens.

I think I get what you're saying, but my point isn't to give a voice to conspiracy ideas but that maybe these people wouldn't take to these conspiracies if other, quite valid aspects of their lives were respected within our society and governments.

 

[Patrick_68000]

The cruise ships tried the same thing. Failed in 5 days.

The only way to be disease free is to vaccinate most/all of the population first, and then worry about the economy. Any success made here isn't because of political systems, it's because of the simple application of basic science.

So they are on the right track doing their population. What happens if 50% democratically refuse? Easy to predict. Democracy leads to failure if the people are not informed.

The Greeks seem willing to be vaccinated up to 70% to save their economy and save themselves.

But that was not the main topic of my post.

The subject was that there will be no need for tourists to be compulsorily vaccinated then a negative test covid will suffice.

So for the destination "Greece" the vaccine passport is still dead / born once more.

No doubt other countries will do the same as Greece.

Finally, we come back to the concept of a green Covid status certificate of the EU, which is by far the best and most intelligent solution.

Everything else is authoritarianism, segregation, extremism. all that is detestable.

 

[Wotthe Dickens]

The subject was that there will be no need for tourists to be compulsorily vaccinated then a negative test covid will suffice.

So for the destination "Greece" the vaccine passport is still dead / born once more.

Hey but Patrick, I think there isn't anybody contesting that? Yes, you can pay for a test.... that's the key word here, pay. Here in the UK, I think that costs about £140 but not certain about that.
So the point is that you won't have to pay if you're vaccinated. But yes, you can buy a test if you'd prefer or need to.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Hey but Patrick, I think there isn't anybody contesting that? Yes, you can pay for a test.... that's the key word here, pay. Here in the UK, I think that costs about £140 but not certain about that.
So the point is that you won't have to pay if you're vaccinated. But yes, you can buy a test if you'd prefer or need to.

It seems to me that Boris had announced two free tests per week for each British.

 

[Patrick_68000]

Hey but Patrick, I think there isn't anybody contesting that? Yes, you can pay for a test.... that's the key word here, pay. Here in the UK, I think that costs about £140 but not certain about that.
So the point is that you won't have to pay if you're vaccinated. But yes, you can buy a test if you'd prefer or need to.

The subject was that a host country does not require compulsory vaccination to come on holiday to its home. It is a very important nuance.

Compulsory vaccination in a country is a national matter in the country concerned.

Here we are talking about a country that receives foreigners, and does not require these tourists to be vaccinated. It's a fundamental difference.

If the UK (or another country) wants to force its people to be vaccinated, that is their affair.

But if the UK (or another country) does not force its people to be vaccinated, the most important thing is that the destination country (here Greece) does not require it also. .

 

[Patrick_68000]

I'm not an anti-vaxxer by any means, but this vaccine IMO was rushed to the point of guinea pig status on society.

No thanks, I'll pass - for now at least. Some of you should honestly be ashamed of yourselves for your "suggestions" on how to "handle" people that aren't ready/don't want to take it. You either live in a Communist society or just can't wait for any herd immunity to kick in.

So true.

I don't see what I can say more.

 

[Wotthe Dickens]

It seems to me that Boris had announced two free tests per week for each British.

I don't think those cheap antigen ones are sufficient for the entry - you need the more expensive PCR test.

 

[Patrick_68000]

European Union countries agreed this month to launch Covid-19 travel passes that would allow people vaccinated against the disease, recovered from infection or tested negative, to travel more easily.

 

[Patrick_68000]

I don't think those cheap antigen ones are sufficient for the entry - you need the more expensive PCR test.

It's possible.

But for people who go once a year or once every 2-3 years to a foreign country and do not wish to be vaccinated, this PCR test can be included in the budget.

 

[Robin of Spiritwood]

Not going to complain, but boy taking MMR before OAZ has really amped up the response. Got a 3 cm bump at the site, fever etc.

I can barely walk after 24 hours. Struggling in the ER. Will have to take tomorrow off and sleep all day. It's good though, intense immune response, like the second dose. If this doesn't make me stronger, I wish it would hurry up and kill me.