The slow orbital cruise approach causes a host of problems.

[Jmanis]

So, to state similar with Odyssey missions, i might grab a couple of assassinations, a massacre, a couple of salvage missions, maybe a heist/theft mission if i'm lucky.

And basically repeat what you just said adjusted for Odyssey gameplay. However, the missions themselves will likely take longer than their space based counterparts.

Wrong. Go back to the numbers I put up before.

Horizons: Grab a bunch of activities in the one system.
1 minute arriving in-system
30 minutes doing the various activities. There is no "wait" between activities, as you'll be interrupted by the various wrinkles, dynamic events (NPC pirate spawns), even other missions etc.
2 minutes to return to the mission provider. Rinse/repeat.

Odyssey: Grab a bunch of activities in the one system.
2 minutes arriving to the first activity (add one minute as it's a surface mission)
10 minutes doing one activity.
5 minutes moving to the next activity in that system
10 minutes doing the next activity
5 minutes moving to the next activity in that system
...etc.

In the Horizons case, that's 30 minutes of activity, 3 minutes of travel... a 10:1 ratio of time doing things vs time waiting.

In the Odyssey case, you're looking at 10-15 minutes per activity then 5 minutes moving to the next... that's a 3:1 ratio at best, 2:1 at worst... substantially more idling time compared to your activity time.

To emphasise, if departure travel times were lower there'd be a much better ratio and more balance to activity vs idling.

 

[HansAcker]

However, planetary departure and inter-system movement, yes, that's a bigger deal.

I find supercruise in general to be the. most. boring. thing. in Elite, by far.
Make it more dangerous, they say, but it's still taking too long. Nobody wants to go out 10kLs, 100kLs, a meelion light seconds to an outpost (except for a mug, maybe).

The last light second is always the longest.
I keep my fingers crossed that SC is going to be the key thing to be changed. Screw engineering, I want to see that outer planet but I don't have all day.

 

[Ronzer]

Sure there are some things done wrong in Elite, but this area I think they have right. Of course it's going to be faster to land at an orbiting station than landing on a surface. If you learn how, the difference isn't even that big. The one thing landing on a surface changes is you dont have to drop from SC...it drops you out, for you, if you're not going too fast, into that awesome glide mode. And when they add thicker atmospheres, it'll take even longer and may require aerodynamics. These are things that make sense, to me.

 

[GroG79]

Hurray for drop pods from super cruise!

 

[B1rdy]

I don't think players always consciously make decisions based on things like this, but they absolutely do make on-the-fly choices that tend to correlate with efficiency, even if they don't realize it.

In psychological studies it has been observed, that humans tend to behave this way and it is part of the enjoyment of a game, to learn the rules and become more skilled at it. Of course this varies from game to game, story-focussed "walking-simulator" is obviously less affected than a complex strategy game, like Civilization.

It's not a game, it's a simulation. Flight simulations would be more "fun" without all that tedious flying? Would angling be more fun if you threw dynamite in the water and all the dead fish floated up to the surface?

Ultimately it does not matter how it is called, it comes down to what the devs want to make of it. Fdev choose the game world to be above everything else most of the time. As mentioned, Multicrew breaks this rule not only for the sake of convenience, but probably also to be a viable choice for players. Because the question "why not bring my own ship" is pretty relevant in this regard.

Is it a problem necessarily? I don't know... it's slow, and there's nothing you can do but wait.

The question is, what do these slow travel times in general add to the game? What benefits do they bring? Are they worth sacrificing accessibility?
Part of the problem is EDs modular design, consisting of many elements that are only connected by their result, if at all. Thus Supercruise is sort of "in the way" of most activities, as it does not add to them. So it seems like an interactive loading screen most of the time.
I know it was a question asked in the DDF how to implement in-system travel and I am on the fence if it was worth it, as the interaction in SC is very limited (but nonetheless dynamic). Therefore I think it would be worthwhile for FDev to find ways to improve this game loop as it would improve the game overall (more than another new ship would do btw.).

 

[MickyG1982]

3 minutes?

Have you tried a steeper approach?

Or simply a better one...

 

[zimms]

Or simply a better one...

I assume that includes everything. If you compare a cargo delivery mission to a space port vs a surface settlements, the estimate of additional 3 minutes might be a bit on the high side, but it's not ridiculous. The departure from the planet is the real time sink in this case.

 

[vanFace]

Seems like Bethesda got it right in proclaiming that seamless transition between space and ground is "not so important for players".
Personally, I don't have a big problem with landing - especially not on low-G planets - after working out a very fast approach style. For me it is almost as fast as approaching (and docking to) a low-orbit station, including all the gravity-well disadvantages (SC is slow). Same goes for departure.
I'd hate to see ED converted to a kind of Mass Effect by means of replacing the landing process with a "land" button.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Wrong. Go back to the numbers I put up before.

I disagree with your assessment based on my own experience of doing Odyssey missions.

 

[vanFace]

It's not a game, it's a simulation. Flight simulations would be more "fun" without all that tedious flying? Would angling be more fun if you threw dynamite in the water and all the dead fish floated up to the surface?

While I share the sentiment of your statement, I don't think that we should call Elite a space simulation. Space simulators are something like Orbiter or even KSP, but not Elite.
It is a bit in-between a game and a simulation, with the emphasis on immersion. However, even on that last part SC enthusiasts would wildly disagree. I think there is no proper term for this kind of software yet, besides the very misleading "space-sim" (without the spelled out "simulator" or "simulation").

 

[MDHansen]

(..)
players will tend to choose the space-based mission
(..)

I'm gonna assume you have the data to back this up

For me this is untrue, and I know a lot more players on this forums that won't agree with you


MDH

 

[Jmanis]

I disagree with your assessment based on my own experience of doing Odyssey missions.

Sure. I'd be interested to know your numbers. I'd concede there may be inaccuracy in my numbers, but not their proportions. Inner- system travel is significantly, measurably slower[1], and it's impact on the amount of idle time moving between planet- based activities compared to space based ones is significant.

That much is unquestionable, as far as I'm concerned.

[1] this was measured by myself and others during Odyssey's alpha.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

Sure. I'd be interested to know your numbers. I'd concede there may be inaccuracy in my numbers, but not their proportions. Inner- system travel is significantly, measurably slower[1], and it's impact on the amount of idle time moving between planet- based activities compared to space based ones is significant.

That much is unquestionable, as far as I'm concerned.

[1] this was measured by myself and others during Odyssey's alpha.

Well, as i said, time to land in most cases isn't significant, certainly nowhere near what OP suggested in his first post, which i feel is intentionally exaggerated.

My most enjoyable activities in Odyssey are those that take time to do on the ground. While i might run courier missions (space based or Odyssey) when working the BGS, its not what i'd consider fun, its just crunching numbers, and since you can't stack ground courier missions to the same destination, unlike space ones, i think there is a good argument to increase the reward (credit/material/rep/inf) for doing Odyssey missions, rather than changing how ground approach works.

But the missions i do in Odyssey tend to be Theft/hiest missions or assassination missions which require finding the target and getting away cleanly (without raising alarms or killing people necessarily). Also massacre missions, which can involve going around the base carefully and taking people out without alerting the base as to what is going on. Those missions can easily take 20 minutes or more (depending on the target).

Most space mission are fairly quick to complete, even the most involved ones. Except for obvious things like mining missions (which i don't do, because why tie myself to a mining mission and not simply just go mining and chill?). Even something like a salvage mission usually takes no more than a minute or so of actual mission time. An assassination mission is usually over in under a minute. The rest of it is just A to B flying (in my experience).

 

[HansAcker]

I'd hate to see ED converted to a kind of Mass Effect by means of replacing the landing process with a "land" button.

I'd settle for a "warp-to" button that brings cruise time down to EVE-levels. Call it a technological breakthrough, thanks to Sirius Research.
Interdictions would need a re-design but that's why it would be an "overhaul", not just an adjustment.

And while we're copying, interdictors could then set up "supercruise traps" in lol-sec systems and anarchies. System authorities would detect and quickly destroy them in high- and medium-security systems.

 

[Jmanis]

Well, as i said, time to land in most cases isn't significant, certainly nowhere near what OP suggested in his first post, which i feel is intentionally exaggerated.

This is not my claim. My claim is the departure times are a much more significant issue.

My most enjoyable activities in Odyssey are those
But the missions i do in Odyssey tend to be Theft/hiest missions or assassination missions which require finding the target and getting away cleanly (without raising alarms or killing people necessarily). Also massacre missions, which can involve going around the base carefully and taking people out without alerting the base as to what is going on. Those missions can easily take 20 minutes or more (depending on the target).

I disagree with that timeframe, even for clean/ no alarm missions. That said, individual times aren't a good measure, you have to average it... otherwise do we mark off the person who takes an hour to do this. You claim 20, i claim 10. 15 is the baseline I'm using in that case.

Most space mission are fairly quick to complete...

... and moving between space based objectives is very stick. But number of activities is not the measure here. Time actively playing the game is.

You also need to compare like with like... megaship missions, hijacks, massacres, they're much more involved as well. (And then there's the wrinkles)

If, in another world, space individual space missions to the same length of time as an Odyssey mission, the time idle still wouldn't change; moving between activities in space is dramatically faster than moving between Odyssey activities... as such drastically more time is spent idle in odyssey as a proportion of play time, because of how long it takes to leave a planet's gravity well and reach a decent supercruise speed.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Yeah well lets destroy even that one bit of semi-realism game has to keep bang bang pew pew going. I mean does anybody look what speedometer says while going towards planets. Most of time one has pretty hefty velocity, like in tens of kilometers per second. Planets and moons just are well...BIG. But of course we need instant stop from system cruise speeds. So that one can have fast missions.

 

[alexzk]

Problem of the game is people playing it wrong.
Since Ody was announced I tend to do mostly ground things. I'm not bothered with drop down things, because I'm not in rush at 1st place. In fact, [auto]docking to the station annoys me most. Some things could really use radio channels, like mission board could be transmitted in 10kms station zone or markets. I think in 1st Elite it was enough to jump into system to see markets.
I observe what future humanity may get and big space around.

 

[thistle]

First the 'Grind' Now the 'Rush'. It's meant to take time. Would you be happy with a pop up screen that says 'land?' when you get into orbit? Also if people run out of time trying to dock, then they simply need to keep trying until they get better, or use a DC, not want it completely removed from the game. In VR, landing manually is one of the best parts, the massive scale becomes apparent the closer you get. It's immersive. I have a cockpit to sit in with Buttkickers and other transducers and the whole landing segment and the vibrations are immense. If you ever experience it, you'd never have made this thread. Again, the more you put into Elite, the more you get out of it. Imagination, immersion. As you said, it's not the only game out there. It has already been nerfed to hell over the years to placate other users, some I agree with on reflection, This I definitely do not. The time it takes for the various things in the game reflect how enormous the play area is. I love NMS, but Launch / Landing is arcade. Just leave it as it is. The majority are happy.

Exactly. The core of the game is the mechanics that are being dismissed in this thread as taking too long.

 

[thistle]

Why not just have the game played from the station menu?

Choose next mission.
Press X to complete mission. Receive payment.
Choose next mission.
Press X to complete mission.

 

[HansAcker]

Most of time one has pretty hefty velocity, like in tens of kilometers per second.

Realistically, those are rookie numbers even in real space. It takes 11km/s just to get out of Earth's gravity well.
We don't have hard facts on how gravity wells affect a theoretical frame shift drive. For the game, it's just points on a curve that someone defined once and that could be changed.

But of course we need instant stop from system cruise speeds.

We don't. Instant stop damages the FSD and hull.
Outside the game, there is no unity about what happens when an Alcubierre drive stops and if a gamma burst would kill everyone on the planet ahead or the next system over.