What cases have there *actually* been of someone else 'stealing' a First Discovery ?

[Athan]

I ask because there's a combination of ED Market Connector and EDSM options that can cause data to at least be delayed going over EDDN, if it ever goes make it over EDDN at all. This causes a real impact on the data that third-party tools see. I know Spansh performs a monthly import of systems/bodies fromthe EDSM dumps that never made it over EDDN, but that cadence does mean data can be 'missing' for up to a month.

Keep in mind that EDSM has been culling old/stale/unclaimed data for a while now. I believe it deletes any data that is only associated with an account that hasn't been used in at least 2 years. This appears to even affect permit-locked named systems. So, you can't rely on the data even being in EDSM. Spansh really is the only source of 'all the data' we have now (EDDB long since stopped recording new bodies).

So, with all that said, does anyone actually have examples of someone else definitely stealing a first discovery from under them because the 'original' discoverer sent the data over EDDN ?

If it was a single isolated incident then I'm inclined to believe it would have been coincidence. Even a handful of them could have been if two explorers just so happened to be in the same volume of space at some point before one of them docked and sold data.

I can also see that, perhaps, some alleged cases of this were actually associated with the discovery being shared in some other manner, e.g. streaming or sharing on other social media.

Has this whole scenario actually only ever been a 'bogey man' of players' invention and not actually a valid worry?

Could we, possibly, just move forward and remove this delayed sending in both EDMC and EDSM so as to benefit the ED community as a whole ?

 

[goemon]

iirc there have been some of those incidents relatively early in the game (when first discoveries where more likely closer to sol AND jumpranges have been lower).

there is of course now a possibility of simply using a road to riches route planner anyways going from somewhere to somewhere and being routed through first discoveries before those are handed in.

and than there is the point cmdrs in squadrons holding on for data much longer to hand them in to win a squadron trophy.

so i think the option in edmc is still valid, and probably a reason why some commanders use that tool at all only with the option of delayed sending. my fear would be people turning it off to secure their first discoveries - in that case there would be no data loss, but less data send. that's what already happened in parts of trading, and in certain situations of bgs-gameplay.

that said - i personally stopped using that option after hearing which problems might come from it many years ago. maybe others might do the same if those problems are communicated more openly (for exampel by a warning or pop-up when enabling).

 

[Eahlstan]

I found the biggest O star known to date. I didn't realise it and continued exploring for quite a while. When I finally sold my data the star already had the tag of a different user.
Not that it bothers me, but it's most likely an example of FD sniping.

 

[kail]

Most of my exploration was done earlier on in my Elite career, but given the way exploration data is handed in, there is no way I would even notice.

 

[varonica]

So, with all that said, does anyone actually have examples of someone else definitely stealing a first discovery from under them because the 'original' discoverer sent the data over EDDN ?

Yes, KOI 1701. If you check on the galmap you will see my name on every body in the system, shortly after I arrived there (about 30 minutes, my carrier needed to do 1 jump to get there) I sold the data to UFC so my tag would appear on the bodies and not be recorded by someone else who noticed the gravity record pop up on any sites and rushed out. At the time I checked and my name was recorded in EDSM as the first visitor to the system. It now has a different name in EDSM as the first visitor, so that was changed after the fact.

You will notice when you go into the planetary details every single body has first reported by by me, KOI 1701 1 had first recorded and mapped by me, and yet there is a different name on first visitor to the system, they must have jumped in and only recorded the main star details and jumped out.

 

[Mooing]

Yes, KOI 1701. If you check on the galmap you will see my name on every body in the system, shortly after I arrived there (about 30 minutes, my carrier needed to do 1 jump to get there) I sold the data to UFC so my tag would appear on the bodies and not be recorded by someone else who noticed the gravity record pop up on any sites and rushed out. At the time I checked and my name was recorded in EDSM as the first visitor to the system. It now has a different name in EDSM as the first visitor, so that was changed after the fact.

You will notice when you go into the planetary details every single body has first reported by by me, KOI 1701 1 had first recorded and mapped by me, and yet there is a different name on first visitor to the system, they must have jumped in and only recorded the main star details and jumped out.

This is almost certainly a bug on EDSM's end. The same happened with Shaulai DL-P d2-274. It initially showed Orange! as the first uploader, but after some time, it showed another commander. And after they deleted the bad flight log entry, it then showed someone else.

 

[varonica]

This is almost certainly a bug on EDSM's end. The same happened with Shaulai DL-P d2-274. It initially showed Orange! as the first uploader, but after some time, it showed another commander. And after they deleted the bad flight log entry, it then showed someone else.

Looking at the flight map of the cmdr in question does show some...questionable....flights, it could indeed be a mistake on EDSM's part with some incorrect ID64's, I have had that happen to me and have a couple of funny spikes on my own travel map, that green spike on the left is the one that appears to just jump straight out to KOI 1701, how would I go about getting this corrected?

 

[cmdr milesred]

I discovered and mapped Oochoxt MY-Y d1-3 in 2019
when I sold the data(right away) it was still clear. for about 1 game session it remained in my name
then next time I looked someone elses name was on them all.
I mentioned that once in another thread long ago.
it became mine again sometime after.
no idea at the time other then I chalked it up to a glitch
it only bothered me because it is another crystal garden, which was actually why I had spent weeks and weeks out there.

I also had over a dozen ELW's and neutron stars change hands in almost the same way in 2016.

I don't use any third party tools for the reason of nothing is secret if everything is shared.
for me it is for BGS reasons. publicizing is not a wise tactic.
and I made my own, long ago.

 

[gumbie]

I think the most notorious case was the system where the beaglepoint guy and the sidewinder guy met up.

 

[Athan]

I found the biggest O star known to date. I didn't realise it and continued exploring for quite a while. When I finally sold my data the star already had the tag of a different user.
Not that it bothers me, but it's most likely an example of FD sniping.

Or just of a coincidence. There are anecdotes of Cmdrs bumping into each other way out in the black.

 

[Athan]

Yes, KOI 1701. If you check on the galmap you will see my name on every body in the system, shortly after I arrived there (about 30 minutes, my carrier needed to do 1 jump to get there) I sold the data to UFC so my tag would appear on the bodies and not be recorded by someone else who noticed the gravity record pop up on any sites and rushed out. At the time I checked and my name was recorded in EDSM as the first visitor to the system. It now has a different name in EDSM as the first visitor, so that was changed after the fact.

You will notice when you go into the planetary details every single body has first reported by by me, KOI 1701 1 had first recorded and mapped by me, and yet there is a different name on first visitor to the system, they must have jumped in and only recorded the main star details and jumped out.

But, given how you're relating this, you didn't do this on purpose, nor did you use data someone else had already sent over EDDN to hone in on it, right ? It was just an unfortunate coincidence of timing (and your FC availability) for the other Cmdr.

 

[Athan]

Looking at the flight map of the cmdr in question does show some...questionable....flights, it could indeed be a mistake on EDSM's part with some incorrect ID64's, I have had that happen to me and have a couple of funny spikes on my own travel map, that green spike on the left is the one that appears to just jump straight out to KOI 1701, how would I go about getting this corrected?

There has been some recent speculation that EDSM is incorrectly tracking Fleet Carriers.

1. The FC in question is 'seen' in system A by EDSM. e.g. someone docked at the FC whilst it's in this system.
2. The FC moves on to system B, but data about this doesn't make it to EDSM.
3. 'You' dock at the FC in system B, either not sending data at all, or just enough of a delay for EDSM to record your location as "on that FC, which we know is in system A".
4. Subsequently you send other data placing you in system B, or an adjacent system, and EDSM records you correctly, but leaves the "big jump and back" in your flight log.

As for correcting it, you can look manually in your EDSM flight log, find the entry/ies and delete them, and/or ask Anthor (EDSM developer) to fix things via the EDSM Discord.

Longer term Anthor does need to track down why this happens, when it's not something to do with CQC systems (which is another bug he still needs to nail down).

 

[Athan]

I discovered and mapped Oochoxt MY-Y d1-3 in 2019
when I sold the data(right away) it was still clear. for about 1 game session it remained in my name
then next time I looked someone elses name was on them all.
I mentioned that once in another thread long ago.
it became mine again sometime after.
no idea at the time other then I chalked it up to a glitch
it only bothered me because it is another crystal garden, which was actually why I had spent weeks and weeks out there.

I also had over a dozen ELW's and neutron stars change hands in almost the same way in 2016.

I don't use any third party tools for the reason of nothing is secret if everything is shared.
for me it is for BGS reasons. publicizing is not a wise tactic.
and I made my own, long ago.

This sounds like a server-side glitch, possibly related to PC versus console Cmdrs ? If the game said you were First Discoverer and then changed it to someone else that's definitely a game bug, rather than someone 'sniping' it. Once the game records a First Discovery it's meant to be done, no backsies, no "prior claim"s changing things.

 

[alterNERDtive]

I would be very surprised to find any cases of first discovery stealing that were based on EDDN/EDSM data. If there are any, you can probably count them on one hand.

I’m not denying it’s not a thing; all I’m saying is that the vast majority of cases will be from the player leaking stuff themselves, either telling others “privately” e.g. in Discord or publicly talking about it on forums / reddit / whatever.

IMO the option to delay sending stuff out in EDMC (and EDSM which has a similar feature) should never have become a thing and be dropped ASAP.

 

[varonica]

This sounds like a server-side glitch, possibly related to PC versus console Cmdrs ? If the game said you were First Discoverer and then changed it to someone else that's definitely a game bug, rather than someone 'sniping' it. Once the game records a First Discovery it's meant to be done, no backsies, no "prior claim"s changing things.

The game has recorded the first discovery, it's EDSM that hasn't. It hasn't changed in game, only on EDSM.

 

[alterNERDtive]

my fear would be people turning it off to secure their first discoveries - in that case there would be no data loss, but less data send. that's what already happened in parts of trading, and in certain situations of bgs-gameplay.

People turning off sending sucks. But in the end you can’t do about it, and enabling any such behaviour is the wrong move, IMO.

Yes, KOI 1701. If you check on the galmap you will see my name on every body in the system, shortly after I arrived there (about 30 minutes, my carrier needed to do 1 jump to get there) I sold the data to UFC so my tag would appear on the bodies and not be recorded by someone else who noticed the gravity record pop up on any sites and rushed out. At the time I checked and my name was recorded in EDSM as the first visitor to the system. It now has a different name in EDSM as the first visitor, so that was changed after the fact.

You will notice when you go into the planetary details every single body has first reported by by me, KOI 1701 1 had first recorded and mapped by me, and yet there is a different name on first visitor to the system, they must have jumped in and only recorded the main star details and jumped out.

That’s probably intended. EDSM will change the first discovered / first mapped tag if later on a jump/scan/map event is uploaded with an earlier timestamp. That is actually there to prevent people from stealing discoveries just by virtue of uploading first. So in this case the guy that just jumped in and out was probably there first.

You can obviously still forge journal events to “steal” stuff after the fact, that’s an unfortunate side effect. IDK if Anthor has any measures in place to prevent that, but ultimately he can’t really.

This is almost certainly a bug on EDSM's end. The same happened with Shaulai DL-P d2-274. It initially showed Orange! as the first uploader, but after some time, it showed another commander. And after they deleted the bad flight log entry, it then showed someone else.

See above. Though “bad flight log entry” (if you know there was one) would indicate a bug. Another explanation would be someone deleting their (EDSM) account, I guess.

 

[alterNERDtive]

The game has recorded the first discovery, it's EDSM that hasn't. It hasn't changed in game, only on EDSM.

Well … the game goes by who sells data first (which causes the entire “stealing” mess in the first place). EDSM goes by who jumps into the systems / scans a body / maps a body first, and will retroactively correct name tags if “new” data with earlier timestamps comes in.

 

[varonica]

I would be very surprised to find any cases of first discovery stealing that were based on EDDN/EDSM data. If there are any, you can probably count them on one hand.

I’m not denying it’s not a thing; all I’m saying is that the vast majority of cases will be from the player leaking stuff themselves, either telling others “privately” e.g. in Discord or publicly talking about it on forums / reddit / whatever.

IMO the option to delay sending stuff out in EDMC (and EDSM which has a similar feature) should never have become a thing and be dropped ASAP.

I disovered KOI 1701 and all planets, confirmed it by checking EDSM and my name was recorded as the first visitor, 30 minutes after that I sold my data to UC. Even if anyone could have traced the system down from the data I posted they wouldn't have been able to beat me there and record first discover data with EDSM because the data was uploaded as soon as I arrived. EDSM even has my name as first discoverer of the star, the only incorrect detail is the CMDR name recorded as first visitor to the system. How could that have happened that he got first visitor but nothing else?

 

[alterNERDtive]

the only incorrect detail is the CMDR name recorded as first visitor to the system. How could that have happened that he got first visitor but nothing else?

He just jumped in, auto scanned the star, jumped back out. And apparently that was before you ever visited the system. And then they only uploaded the relevant journal data after you were there.

Edit: if that were a case of “stealing” … they would have stolen the entire thing, no?

 

[varonica]

He just jumped in, auto scanned the star, jumped back out. Obviously. And apparently that was before you ever visited the system.

If he autoscanned the star it would be recorded on EDSM as his first discovery, since it's clearly recorded in my name on EDSM then he didn't autoscan the star, he can't have EDDN report as first visitor without it recording the star as well;

I have been in plenty of system where only the star was recorded in EDSM, if you are reporting the data then it should also report the star as being discovered and not just the system visited.