What cases have there *actually* been of someone else 'stealing' a First Discovery ?

If he autoscanned the star it would be recorded on EDSM as his first discovery.
Oh, you have the star, too. Missed that, my bad.

Well that leaves two likely explanations, either they uploaded a jump but not a scan event; that can and has happened to me for game crashes during / right after jumps, when loading back in puts you way out from the main star. Or … well, EDSM bug I guess.

I don’t think that this is likely to be an attempt at “stealing” the discovery. If it is, it’s a pretty bad one :)
 
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I have been in plenty of system where only the star was recorded in EDSM, if you are reporting the data then it should also report the star as being discovered and not just the system visited.
Not, if the visit was done before FSS became a thing. To discover the star you had to target it and point your ship at it for about 5 seconds. If the traveller was just passing by and didn't stop to scan the star, they wouldn't have discoveret it.
 
Even first discoveries seem to get overwritten on the Fdev side sometimes
And of course this is super difficult to track/prove

When FCs released. I went up to set the height record (Which I lost to the rackham discoverer) Some first discoveries are overwritten by other CMDRs.
 
Not, if the visit was done before FSS became a thing. To discover the star you had to target it and point your ship at it for about 5 seconds. If the traveller was just passing by and didn't stop to scan the star, they wouldn't have discoveret it.
It is also possible to jump into a system in a carrier and be far enough away from the main star that the star is not detected by the carriers autoscan and then the carrier jumped into another system. The carriers scan will be put into their awaiting reporting list in cartographics as a system without any star details.
 
Not, if the visit was done before FSS became a thing. To discover the star you had to target it and point your ship at it for about 5 seconds. If the traveller was just passing by and didn't stop to scan the star, they wouldn't have discoveret it.

Yes that's true, however KOI 1701 did NOT appear in the list of catalogue systems from Spansh that had a location recorded but no main star recorded, there were quite a few of those in the KOI catalogue, but KOI 1701 wasn't among them. It was September last year that I first entered the system, the FSS was introduced 3 years before that, this means the CMDR in question would have needed to sit on the data for 3 years, before the FSS was introduced, now granted that's not impossible for dedicated explorer, but his travel map on EDSM show no log entries for an extended period, the last entry in his log book was from October 18 2020.

In fact tracing down his visit to KOI 1701 and checking jump lengths it looks like the only way he could have visited was by Fleet Carrier, which was the same time as the introduction of the FSS;

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So it all seems rather strange. It appears from his flight map he was there, and visited exactly 3 stars. he visited no stars between KOI 1701 and the bubble, so he must have at the very least arrived there by Fleet Carrier, after visiting KOI 1701 and 2 other systems he returned to the bubble, visiting no systems on the way back, and never bothered scanning any of the planets and stars. He basically appears to have jumped directly from Rikbakshmi to KOI 1701, jumped to 2 stars and back to KOI 1701, and then directly back to Rikbakshmi in the bubble. Also according to the plot he seems to have made that exact same trip 3 times from a couple of different locations in the bubble, out to KOI 1701 and back to the same location, strange.
 
Or just of a coincidence. There are anecdotes of Cmdrs bumping into each other way out in the black.
True, but since this was (and still is) a galactic record and EDSM has a records page especially pointing out those, it's the most likely snipe I could think of.
 
It is also possible to jump into a system in a carrier and be far enough away from the main star that the star is not detected by the carriers autoscan and then the carrier jumped into another system. The carriers scan will be put into their awaiting reporting list in cartographics as a system without any star details.

Yeah that is true, in this CMDR's case they must have left the carrier because they jumped to a couple of other systems, so you would at least honk I would have thought. Ah, now that's interesting, on that same trip when he visited KOI 1701 he also visited Sifoae UU-O e6-0, curiously enough that's a system I also visited whilst out there, on that same trip, same date of visit, 1 jump away from KOI 1701, and guess who is listed as first discovery? Me! Curiouser and curiouser.
 
In fact tracing down his visit to KOI 1701 and checking jump lengths it looks like the only way he could have visited was by Fleet Carrier, which was the same time as the introduction of the FSS;
Seems like you're misremembering, fleet carriers were introduced much later than the FSS. To recap, the FSS was introduced in 2018. Dec., the 3.4 Beyond Chapter Four update, while carriers were added in 2020. Jun., the 3.7 Fleet Carriers update. Maybe you recalled that the fleet carriers were supposed to come then, but were delayed significantly. They've also been completely revised during that time, as they were originally said to be squadron assets, then later it was revealed that functionality would be added via adding a support ship. Frankly, I much prefer this current system, I would rather not have had to choose between carrying only one set of services or another set.
But yeah, that was a delay of 1.5 years: does this throw off those logbook entries though? You did mention that the final one was in 2020. October, and that would have been after the 3.7 update.
 
Spansh really is the only source of 'all the data' we have now (EDDB long since stopped recording new bodies).
Unless I'm wrong, EDAstro's data (see here) does the same, so it's there too. The EDSM data backup dumps there are weekly though, not monthly.


On to the main point of discussion then: sure, I've seen it happen, although I don't have any numbers on how many times it might come up, so this is just an anecdote. Bear in mind though that these delayed sending features were added long before fleet carriers though, so rushing back to sell data was a much longer affair then.

Then there's also that there are (or at the very least were) some people watching the Codex for new Green Gas Giants, and rushing to new entries with the aim of getting their tags on them.
This can't be circumvented by delaying upload, of course, but it is much easier to watch EDDN for new GGGs than it is to watch the Codex. The former is automated, the latter isn't. However, with carriers being all over the galaxy, the discoverer does have a significant head start over whoever might be racing to nab the tag.

There's also that that when mapping was added, there were people who went after uploaded ELWs, to tag them en masse. I've had quite a lot of mine mapped by the same two (or three?) other CMDRs. I imagine this is only an issue whenever a new tag is introduced, or when a body type suddenly becomes of more interest than before. Such as thin water atmospheres did with Odyssey's release.
Of course, there's no good solution to this. The only way is to rush out to your discoveries to tag them first, if they are ones you care about.
 
Seems like you're misremembering, fleet carriers were introduced much later than the FSS. To recap, the FSS was introduced in 2018. Dec., the 3.4 Beyond Chapter Four update, while carriers were added in 2020. Jun., the 3.7 Fleet Carriers update.

Ah you're right, just did a quick lookup and thought they were introduced at the same time, but yeah they did go through a few revisions didn't they, I still miss my support ship from the exploration FC, that would have been epic to have had trailing around the galaxy after you lol.

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I think the most notorious case was the system where the beaglepoint guy and the sidewinder guy met up.

Yep this.

The system is called Rendezvous Point. Frontier named it after the famous meeting that occurred there back in the day. If I remember correctly, Kamzel (the CMDR who discovered Beagle Point) met CMDR R4nger0 in the Scutum Arm at the system that became known as Rendezvous Point. It was big news at the time, being the most distant encounter ever made. I think Galnet and some online magazines wrote about it. Sadly R4nger0 never got his name on any of the worlds in that system that he and Kamzel surveyed as other players who read about the meetup in galnet rushed out there and tagged them, and got back to the bubble before he did. R4anger0 was in a stock Sidewinder so didn't stand a chance sadly. Luckily Kamzel made it back before some people so he deservedly got his name on some of the worlds in that system he discovered.

I think it was that incident that made explorers more wary and guarded about prematurely posting system names and POIs they'd discovered, and not before getting back and cashing in on them themselves.

Edit: and I just checked on EDSM and Rendezvous Point first discovery has been given to CMDR Altilnil, who was one of the guys who rushed out there after the system name was revealed on Galnet. In reality it was Kamzel or R4anger0 who first visited that system.
 
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Yep this.

The system is called Rendezvous Point. Frontier named it after the famous meeting that occurred there back in the day. If I remember correctly, Kamzel (the CMDR who discovered Beagle Point) met CMDR R4nger0 in the Scutum Arm at the system that became known as Rendezvous Point. It was big news at the time, being the most distant encounter ever made. I think Galnet and some online magazines wrote about it. Sadly R4nger0 never got his name on any of the worlds in that system that he and Kamzel surveyed as other players who read about the meetup in galnet rushed out there and tagged them, and got back to the bubble before he did. R4anger0 was in a stock Sidewinder so didn't stand a chance sadly. Luckily Kamzel made it back before some people so he deservedly got his name on some of the worlds in that system he discovered.

I think it was that incident that made explorers more wary and guarded about prematurely posting system names and POIs they'd discovered, and not before getting back and cashing in on them themselves.

Edit: and I just checked on EDSM and Rendezvous Point first discovery has been given to CMDR Altilnil, who was one of the guys who rushed out there after the system name was revealed on Galnet. In reality it was Kamzel or R4anger0 who first visited that system.
Of course the 'sideband' here wasn't EDDN, was it ? It was "this is all over the various social media channels to do with the game". So, as famous as this is, it's not actually an example of such sniping.
 
I'm not really sure of the point of this thread as you'll never prove someone had tags stolen in the way your asking without someone explicitly stating it. You can always just blame "coincidence" or "they told their friends" or whatever. Just do away with the option and people will have to get used to it, or not.

I will say I have stolen tags though, and have had tags stolen. I didn't go out of my way to do so, but it has happened. I regularly use the neutron plotter and have been directed to systems that are untagged many times. Some of these are harvested from NavRoute but others have EDSM tags despite no in-game tags. I have ended up tagging at least some of those systems. I'm also convinced I've lost a couple of tags this way too. I've no real problem with this, I prefer a wider network of neutrons to aid travel and if I lose a few tags because of it, who cares? I probably stole a similar amount to those I lost.

My bigger issue that someone already mentioned is GGGs. There are people on this forum who admit to sniping tags of GGGs. Yes, the information is immediately entered into the Codex so if they regularly check it they will see new entries. There is even a document with a weekly update of all Codex entries. But EDDN ensures that a whole host of discords and other places are aware within just a few seconds of it happening - not whenever someone happens to check. Push vs pull. FWIW, I don't think sniping is the bigger problem here. People want to see and confirm new GGGs but it means potential inadvertant tag stealing. I know for a fact that a commander is sitting on exploration data of a GGG that someone else discovered because they've not sold it yet. That one wasn't found through EDDN but it would have meant more people being aware of it sooner.



I have some counter queries.

Why is the month delay a problem?

Why doesn't more software add functionality for delayed transmission? Surely if the data gets there "eventually", that's better than not getting the data?

Why doesn't spansh have a direct API for submissions (and an option to hide our data for x period of time) given EDSMs increasing irrelevance?

Why are there not options in software for which data I send over EDDN?
 
The delay is specifically a problem because EDSM doesn't send the data over EDDN when it's un-hidden there. Any site wanting to attempt to have that data has to process the regular EDSM data dumps, and as I said somewhere in this thread, that can have a race condition causing the data to never make it into such.
 
I have some counter queries.

Why is the month delay a problem?

Why doesn't more software add functionality for delayed transmission? Surely if the data gets there "eventually", that's better than not getting the data?

Why doesn't spansh have a direct API for submissions (and an option to hide our data for x period of time) given EDSMs increasing irrelevance?

Why are there not options in software for which data I send over EDDN?
Answering these in order
  • I have no issue with a delay, it could be 6 months for all I care. I mainly want to ensure the data comes through EDDN eventually. The problem is that when people configure a delay on EDSM it doesn't get sent through EDDN at all and I end up having to pull the data directly from EDSM logs which means I get any errors EDSM caused within the data and I have no easy way of cleaning those up.
  • Perhaps we could utilise something like Journal Limpet for delayed journal sending, potentially with a plugin (or a new default send) for ED:MC and or ED:Discovery which allows them to automatically upload there.
  • I'm trying to stay away from non EDDN based data, the developers who deal with the journal have spent a long time ensuring everything is processed correctly and any game based weirdness is handled well, I'd probably end up doing a worse job than them.
  • You'd have to talk to the developers of those apps, it's likely because they don't realise exactly which data is precious (not just scans, only scans of x, y and/or z) a lot of us don't actively play the game these days so our knowledge is limited.
 
Yeah I always report directly, it can in some areas be a little annoying having your discoveries come up immediately, for instance during the beta I was the first player to find and report Lagrange Clouds, I posted pictures on the forums minus location data, however I forgot about the codex, so minutes later it was all over reddit and the forums where they were, so no chance of keeping it to myself to grab first discovery on a half dozen types of Lagrange Clouds in that particular region, the place would have been swarming with CMDR's eager for the kill when the beta ended!

So I also went and found the first Crystal Spikes in the game and deliberately didn't scan them or anything, then when the beta ended I was sat in orbit around that planet ready to get the first galaxy wide discovery of Crystal Spikes. You win some, you lose some, but that's the way it is, I will always report directly, and with my Fleet Carrier nearby with UC it's not such a problem, with KOI 1701 1 it was 1 jump away, no chance of anyone grabbing that before me!
 
Yeah I always report directly, it can in some areas be a little annoying having your discoveries come up immediately, for instance during the beta I was the first player to find and report Lagrange Clouds, I posted pictures on the forums minus location data, however I forgot about the codex, so minutes later it was all over reddit and the forums where they were, so no chance of keeping it to myself to grab first discovery on a half dozen types of Lagrange Clouds in that particular region, the place would have been swarming with CMDR's eager for the kill when the beta ended!

So I also went and found the first Crystal Spikes in the game and deliberately didn't scan them or anything, then when the beta ended I was sat in orbit around that planet ready to get the first galaxy wide discovery of Crystal Spikes. You win some, you lose some, but that's the way it is, I will always report directly, and with my Fleet Carrier nearby with UC it's not such a problem, with KOI 1701 1 it was 1 jump away, no chance of anyone grabbing that before me!

Yep, 99.99% of the time it's fine. It's the 0.01% that I care about though.

Majority of the time I will also send data - but notably I specifically turned off EDDN during the recent ATEG expedition. On the off chance I had found the elusive GGG (and, you know, the codex wasn't bugged for that specific type of GGG in the end :rolleyes: ), it would've been broadcast everywhere with quite literally hundreds of commanders around and the very real possibility of tag sniping, intentional or otherwise. (Yes, I know we're back to theorheticals not actual things with evidence).
If the software had given me the option of not sending Codex entries over EDDN, I could simply of unticked that and all other data would've been sent. Instead my choice was "untick EDDN".

It also shouldn't be necessary to drag a carrier round with you "just in case" (but I also do this now. Just in case).

I really like the idea of Journal Limpet being able to send journals after a period of time.

I still think EDMC and EDSM should remove the current delay options if they cause so many problems though - we don't pay for these services/software and the developers should do what they need to do for the greater good.
 
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