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Thread: The Open v Solo v Groups thread IV - Hotel California

  1. #4501
    Originally Posted by Rubbernuke View Post (Source)
    Is this still going?
    This debate will be going until one of two things happen, either:

    1. Elite Dangerous dies and the servers go offline

    or

    2. Frontier implements an official Open PvE mode as an option

    While a C&P system implemented into the game might help the situation, it won't solve it. There are too many people who just want a cooperative multiplayer experience rather than a gankfest of a galaxy, and there are too many commanders who just want to kill other commanders for zero reasons other than they simply can.

  2. #4502
    I'll fight ye. Cigars and cognac at 3 metres

  3. #4503
    Originally Posted by Mengy View Post (Source)
    This debate will be going until one of two things happen, either:

    1. Elite Dangerous dies and the servers go offline

    or

    2. Frontier implements an official Open PvE mode as an option

    While a C&P system implemented into the game might help the situation, it won't solve it. There are too many people who just want a cooperative multiplayer experience rather than a gankfest of a galaxy, and there are too many commanders who just want to kill other commanders for zero reasons other than they simply can.
    Open PVE? What would that be - players ghosting through other ships, unable to interact with them? That may actually be a nice replacement for solo - ships could appear as blue circles on radar and have a bright blue aura etc when in that game mode.

  4. #4504
    Originally Posted by Gunnet View Post (Source)
    You can't win anything significant with direct (i.e. shooting) PvP. Your prize for shooting somebody in the face is merely not paying a rebuy yourself. Or at best, negligible value in cargo for a pirate and an only slightly less negligible bounty for a bounty hunter.

    All the game's mechanics which pit players against each other for a meaningful reward hinge entirely on PvE activities. The BGS, PP and competing CGs are all capable by design of motivating and rewarding indirect (i.e. not shooting) PvP. It's really not a stretch at all to say that these are the core PvP experience in ED.

    It was made that way deliberately. The degree to which the game incentivises indirect PvP while disincentivising direct PvP is actually quite masterful. They just unfortunately failed to take into account the number of players who receive an intangible, out of game reward for destroying ships. Although with all the talk of overhauling C&P and introducing a karma system it seems they're aiming to correct that.
    Originally Posted by Jason Lightning View Post (Source)
    Disagree, maybe you get some enjoyment out of playing background shuffle, but personally pirating is far more fun and meaningful than any form of BGS or PP. I even make decent money off it as the pirated cargo can sell decently and gives me points for CG contribution. Last few weeks of piracy alone have made me a nice tidy profit.

    Edit: autocorrect put PP as PvP, what a mistake that was
    You're both correct.

    Gunnet is correct that however enjoyable a player finds it, direct PvP combat has no more persistent impact on the galaxy than PvE combat does. Therefore those players that count "score" by "winning" CGs, by the local primacy of their power or their chosen minor faction etc, cannot "win" over other players by PvP combat - the "better PvE players" will win all those things that have a persistent effect, because to succeed over other players in all those things you must be better at PvE than they are, PvP combat is actually a losing strategy in that regard.

    That's one of the primary reasons for this thread's existence, because quite a few dedicated PvP combat pilots don't like that and particularly don't like that the three matchmaking modes effectively disconnect their PvP efforts from any and all persistent galactic effect.

    Jason is also correct. It's not necessary to "win" any of those things to have fun and progress personally in ED and if you're "keeping score" by that rather than by any of those background-related measures then yes, PvP can be positively rewarding. Because we set our own goals in this game and only we can decide whether we've met them or not then it's quite possible to set oneself a goal that can be achieved by primarily PvP combat. That's great, we need more PvP pirates as opposed to random murder-hobos. IMHO the game doesn't do enough to encourage them and rewards them too lightly. Sure, some of them would be out to get me when I'm trading but I'm no slouch at avoiding folks and don't fly defenseless eggshells, so if they can catch me in a ship I can neither outrun nor outfight then they've earned a few cans of whatever I'm carrying.

    If all the PvP pilots took Jason's attitude, this thread either wouldn't exist or would be a lot shorter than the 4th iteration of a maxed out megathread.

  5. #4505
    Originally Posted by Jason Lightning View Post (Source)
    I get there was more to your post besides this statement, but I think maybe you should clarify what you meant exactly? As someone who does a fair bit of shooting people in the face, often for cargo, I was under the impression that shooting someone was what PvP actually meant. Perhaps I misunderstood you though and you aren't saying that shooting someone isn't PvP?

    Sorry for not getting back to this but your question was answered by a couple of others..with one small addition.

    Even if you want to PVP, in this game, you have to grind out excessive amounts of PVE to be even competitive with those that want to PVP...and have to continue to grind out PVE goals to keep your ship up.

    Piracy is definitely a way to 'make money'...but honestly...do you really feel like trying to find enough PC's to make 40 or 50 millions credits? Or are you including PVE piracy in the activity of pirating? And if that is the case...how much crap PVE do you have to do to have that singular experience of pirating one PC? Is it really worth the effort?

  6. #4506
    Originally Posted by Roybe View Post (Source)
    Sorry for not getting back to this but your question was answered by a couple of others..with one small addition.

    Even if you want to PVP, in this game, you have to grind out excessive amounts of PVE to be even competitive with those that want to PVP...and have to continue to grind out PVE goals to keep your ship up.

    Piracy is definitely a way to 'make money'...but honestly...do you really feel like trying to find enough PC's to make 40 or 50 millions credits? Or are you including PVE piracy in the activity of pirating? And if that is the case...how much crap PVE do you have to do to have that singular experience of pirating one PC? Is it really worth the effort?
    Oh you mean the RNG engineer grind, preaching to the choir on that one, it sucks but is a necessary evil just to be competitive. I'm totally for anything that would help fix that insanity.

    As for piracy, no I don't pirate NPCs, that's boring and they can't be forced to comply with demands. CGs are the primary source of piracy income, since the CMDRs are plentiful, the security players are inexperienced, and all my seized cargo counts for most CGs, if not at least the abandoned ones do. I've gotten some very nice rewards at CGs by placing decently high in contribution, all without ever actually making the trip myself.

  7. #4507
    Originally Posted by Jason .Lightning View Post (Source)
    .. CGs are the primary source of piracy income, since the CMDRs are plentiful, the security players are inexperienced, and all my seized cargo counts for most CGs, if not at least the abandoned ones do. .....
    And this is the life blood of this thread/topic / personal hell we call S.O.G.4

    Should human players get fed up being shot at / stolen from at CGs, they can just pop over to a private group (or solo) and carry on.
    Making up the cash they lost to you and some profit on top. Then you are left with fewer and fewer targets.

    Heck, you don't want to see a CG in the Mobius private groups, docking is a nightmare. Though the banter is great and folks are generally friendly.
    So the 30 / 45-minute wait to dock isn't so bad when you've got people to talk to while waiting.

    We did have a spate of complaint threads from player pirates a while back saying how they were getting fed up of the "slim pickings" at CGs and how it was getting worse.
    Most of the names are in S.O.G 1 & 2 calling for the removal of Solo / Group play. Which is how we landed here today.

  8. #4508
    Originally Posted by Jockey79 View Post (Source)
    And this is the life blood of this thread/topic / personal hell we call S.O.G.4

    Should human players get fed up being shot at / stolen from at CGs, they can just pop over to a private group (or solo) and carry on.
    Making up the cash they lost to you and some profit on top. Then you are left with fewer and fewer targets.

    Heck, you don't want to see a CG in the Mobius private groups, docking is a nightmare. Though the banter is great and folks are generally friendly.
    So the 30 / 45-minute wait to dock isn't so bad when you've got people to talk to while waiting.

    We did have a spate of complaint threads from player pirates a while back saying how they were getting fed up of the "slim pickings" at CGs and how it was getting worse.
    Most of the names are in S.O.G 1 & 2 calling for the removal of Solo / Group play. Which is how we landed here today.
    And? I can't do anything about that since they will quit open anyway at the first sign of trouble, even though I take great pains to not blow up traders because I want cargo.

    Fact is they aren't cut out for Open if they can't deal with a pirate, not even a murder hobo but a simple pirate.

  9. #4509
    Originally Posted by Jason Lightning View Post (Source)
    CGs are the primary source of piracy income, since the CMDRs are plentiful
    Originally Posted by Jockey79 View Post (Source)
    And this is the life blood of this thread/topic / personal hell we call S.O.G.4
    Should human players get fed up being shot at / stolen from at CGs, they can just pop over to a private group (or solo) and carry on.
    Frankly, should human players tire of being shot at they can just avoid CGs altogether. I spent the entire weekend trading in my Python. Nearly the same build as Rinzler's "Git Gud T-7". I started in a popular spot, spent some time there hauling and picking up rares, then went down to another rares cluster, spent some time there outbreak trading, even called the nearly unmodded T-9 down and ran the outbreak run in that a couple of times before I sold it and jumped back in the Python. There were CMDRs here and there, but no trouble ensued. I could have very well run into a gank squad, but it didn't happen. In the end, I don't know how much I made because when I sold the T-9 and the modules it screwed up my bookkeeping, but made at least top 75%-50% CG numbers between the trading, the hauling, the bounties from interdictors, and explo data. Could have been more had I really focused more on the trade runs.

    My point is, outside of places like CGs other CMDRs are hard to come by, and in general everyone just wants to be left to do their thing.

  10. #4510
    Originally Posted by Jason Lightning View Post (Source)
    And? I can't do anything about that since they will quit open anyway at the first sign of trouble, even though I take great pains to not blow up traders because I want cargo.

    Fact is they aren't cut out for Open if they can't deal with a pirate, not even a murder hobo but a simple pirate.
    The circular nature of this argument...if the number of players increase to a majority that end up being cut out fer open, then perhaps open is not cut out fer the players. The perception being that the murder hobos outnumber the simple pirates...whether thats accurate or not really isnt the point, its accurate enough to have forced a great many players out of open and something needs to change to redress the balance.

    The riddle that nobody can answer...how to make players happy to be the victim? Whats in it fer them? The role play experience perhaps?

    Answer that and ye fix the problem and win the damsel at the last boss level ^

  11. #4511
    Solo people are bad and should feel bad for not cutting it in open.

    Open people are bad and should feel bad for being a bunch of psychopathic murderhobos.

    Group people are bad and should feel bad for having friends...filthy socials...I need a hug...

    There, /thread.

  12. #4512
    Originally Posted by PotatoOverdose View Post (Source)
    Solo people are bad and should feel bad for not cutting it in open.

    Open people are bad and should feel bad for being a bunch of psychopathic murderhobos.

    Group people are bad and should feel bad for having friends...filthy socials...I need a hug...

    There, /thread.
    Probably does actually end the thread.

    Oops.

  13. #4513
    Originally Posted by Sonof Hibachi View Post (Source)
    Probably does actually end the thread.

    Oops.
    You can check out any time you like, but you can never leave.

  14. #4514
    Originally Posted by verminstar View Post (Source)
    The circular nature of this argument...if the number of players increase to a majority that end up being cut out fer open, then perhaps open is not cut out fer the players. The perception being that the murder hobos outnumber the simple pirates...whether thats accurate or not really isnt the point, its accurate enough to have forced a great many players out of open and something needs to change to redress the balance.

    The riddle that nobody can answer...how to make players happy to be the victim? Whats in it fer them? The role play experience perhaps?

    Answer that and ye fix the problem and win the damsel at the last boss level ^
    I'm not shooting to kill traders, I'm doing actual piracy. If that is too much for someone I pull to handle then they shouldn't be in open, because it is an intended mechanic for players to pirate other players. Yet I make demands and get logged on, in one case I fully disabled a player, who didn't want to give up cargo despite his new predicament and logged after he realized I was taking it anyway via hatchbreakers.

    Everyone always complains about the 'murderhobos', what I'm referring to was piracy.

  15. #4515
    Originally Posted by Jason Lightning View Post (Source)
    I'm not shooting to kill traders, I'm doing actual piracy. If that is too much for someone I pull to handle then they shouldn't be in open, because it is an intended mechanic for players to pirate other players. Yet I make demands and get logged on, in one case I fully disabled a player, who didn't want to give up cargo despite his new predicament and logged after he realized I was taking it anyway via hatchbreakers.

    Everyone always complains about the 'murderhobos', what I'm referring to was piracy.
    So was I...I dont care what you do or why ye do it any more than ye care what I do...ye still havent solved the riddle.

    How dd ye make players happy enough to enjoy being the victim? Making pirates happy would be more victims but whats in it fer those on the recieving end? I sympathize with genuine pirates because the murderhobos ruined yer playground and made it toxic, so how do ye entice players back? Theres no logical or financial reason to go into open and run the gauntlet unless ye just enjoy the thrill.

    Have ye considered the possibility that most solo players arent actually avoiding the role playing genuine pirates by choice? That perhaps previous player encounters might not have gone swimmingly well?

    Ah sure...maybe Im just not cut out fer open...Ill go back to what I was doin cos it looks like everything is normal and theres no problem fer me to worry about ^

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