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Thread: Why there "IS" artificial gravity in ED

  1. #31
    Originally Posted by Alaand View Post (Source)
    How do people live on very small planets, moons etc with no artificial gravity? Low gravity has a dramatical impact on human body.

    Er, they don't? I'm going to assume you mean in-game. In that case, I wonder that as well. The same with all the outpost structures. I've assumed that the populations of these places must have quite the turnover as the negative effects of micro-gravity on humans are well documented.

  2. #32
    Originally Posted by Blackbeard View Post (Source)
    When in a station in Elite dangerous, your CMDR will be experiencing centrifugal force - centrifugal force is not real and is only a perception - i.e artificial gravity (which I will explain). You surely feel the pressure when you accelerate in real life. Whether you attribute it to fictitious forces or other forces depends on your choice of the "reference frame" (vantage point).

    From the viewpoint of your body's reference frame, which is not an inertial frame, there exist fictitious forces (inertia and/or centrifugal and/or Coriolis' force) that would push your body towards a seat in a car. With centrifugal forces, the force increases the closer it is.

    If you are in a car when the brakes are jammed on, then you will feel pushed toward the front of the car. However, there is really no force pushing you forward. The car, since it is slowing down, is an accelerating, or non-inertial, frame of reference, and the law of inertia no longer holds if we use this non-inertial frame to judge your motion.

    The ground is stationary and, therefore, is an inertial frame. Relative to the ground, when the brakes are applied, you continue with your forward motion, just like you should according to Newton's first law of motion. The situation is this: the car is stopping, you are not; so, you head out toward the dashboard. From your point of view in the car it seems like you have spontaneously been pushed forward. Actually, there is no force acting on you. The imagined force toward the front of the car is a fictitious force.

    If a car is standing still and then accelerates, the car actually comes up from behind you, and, using the seat, the car pushes you forward. You may interpret this feeling as your body being pushed backward into the seat. Really, you are attempting to maintain your velocity of zero, and the seat is coming up from behind to push on you. There is no backward force. The imagined force is a fictitious force (artificial gravity). Fictitious forces arise in non-inertial, or accelerating, frames of reference.

    In the words of a site cited below (putting it much better than I can): "In space, it is possible to create "artificial gravity" by spinning your spacecraft or space station. When the station spins, centrifugal force acts to pull the inhabitants to the outside. This process could be used to simulate gravity".

    If you watch a time lapse of an ED station, you will see it spinning (which is creating the artificial gravity) and also orbiting the planet.

    That is why in the International Space Station today there is no gravity - it is not spinning. To the stations in ED have been made to purposely spin (as far as I can tell) to create the artificial gravity.
    Artificial gravity isnt possible in the relative universe. Space magic needs to be employed as it would be impossible for anything with a mass less than the earth to create a 1G gravity well. An artificial gravity well would play havoc on a ship and its surrounding not to mention you would need a stars worth of energy at all times to power it.


    But this is just a game that has shields which would require the same power requirements.

    Anywho, there is no artificial gravity in ED because its all based on acceleration around a central axis or direct thrust. Any other walking around can be done with magnetic boots.

  3. #33
    Originally Posted by Blackbeard View Post (Source)
    As I said above after I edited my post, I do see the point that it isn't artificial because you aren't creating the perception of gravity, just putting the pieces in place as it were. But then you could say you are creating the availability for the perception of gravity to take place, in an unnatural and forced way. But, I think that's just the English language.

    Would you agree that it's a language barrier, then?
    Not sure that's a language problem. Gravitational force is one of the four kinds of fundamental interactions. The force you need to apply to an object in a station (magnetic boots, welding your ship to the floor, superglue or whatever) produces a force of a different nature than gravitational force, but that will be perceived the same way as gravitational force.

    The way I see it, 'artificial gravity' would be a force of the same nature as gravity (a centripetal force decreasing with distance to the source of the artificial gravity force) made by an artificial device.

  4. #34
    The problem is that you're not saying anything. You're describing something that everyone agrees with but you're using an odd and not commonly held definition of the term "artificial gravity" to make a point. Everyone already agrees with you about everything except that when you say "there IS artificial gravity," we initially think you're making some other argument. Elite has no gravity generating devices ala Star Trek or Star Citizen or BattleStar Galactica or Star Wars or almost every sci-fi that's ever been on TV or Film, where any surface can somehow become a "floor" through some technology which causes that surface to act as though it is the direction "down" on planet earth. Elite doesn't have that. Or maybe it *does* but everything about the way the game has been built so far seems to indicate that it *doesnt*.

  5. #35
    Originally Posted by CMDR Dreamstate View Post (Source)
    Metal magnets on boots is one way to stick to the floor.

    At the end of the day, it is science-fiction - I'm sure Frontier can think of something fictional to make gravity exist on ships as it is supposed to be 3303.

    Does it need to be explained now before we even have space legs?
    ----

    Players can hyper-jump to Sagittarius A* and back again within 24 hours. I think it is safe to assume ships could have artificial gravity, even if it isn't explained fully in the lore yet (if at all). Some suspension of belief is required for many stories, movies, and games - most of the time, people are happy with the theory behind an idea.
    It is explained in lore, and you actually just explained it yourself! The flight suit is magnetic and is smart enough to selectively make every step work as if it were simulating gravity (for the most part). They probably developed this tech because long term space flight and landing on planets regularly gets to be problematic.

    One of the reasons the flight suit (currently) has a split in the toes is for grasping in emergencies, presumably.

  6. #36
    Originally Posted by Blackbeard View Post (Source)
    As I said above after I edited my post, I do see the point that it isn't artificial because you aren't creating the perception of gravity, just putting the pieces in place as it were. But then you could say you are creating the availability for the perception of gravity to take place, in an unnatural and forced way. But, I think that's just the English language.

    Would you agree that it's a language barrier, then?
    I would say it is a limitation of the English language to easily differentiate things. We have to keep adding qualifiers and descriptors to make a point. At least the Germans got the right idea and just smash a sentence down to one word
    Commander Monk Edgecomb
    Duke, HIP 16858

    “If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”

  7. #37
    Hate to be that guy, I've got DB on record saying
    the only artificial gravity will be that created by centripetal force from rotation


    But really OP, as was already said the general acceptance here is that artificial gravity refers to gravity plates or other such devices generating actual gravity - capable of pulling matter from a distance - by some space magic, although as was shown by DB's (confusing) comment I'm not sure there's any official terminology wrt what is artificial, what is simulated etc..
    In any case that's all semantics so I'm out of here.

  8. #38
    Originally Posted by Jukelo View Post (Source)
    Hate to be that guy, I've got DB on record saying




    But really OP, as was already said the general acceptance here is that artificial gravity refers to gravity plates or other such devices generating actual gravity - capable of pulling matter from a distance - by some space magic.
    Oh, you!

    FWIW, I'd consider DB an engineer of sorts...physicists often have to forgive engineers for their misuse of words

    Engineers often have to forgive physicists for assuming the engineering issues right out of their equations...they especially hate it when a physicist says...by some miracle...lol
    Commander Monk Edgecomb
    Duke, HIP 16858

    “If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”

  9. #39
    Originally Posted by simo2003 View Post (Source)
    Er, they don't? I'm going to assume you mean in-game. In that case, I wonder that as well. The same with all the outpost structures. I've assumed that the populations of these places must have quite the turnover as the negative effects of micro-gravity on humans are well documented.
    Yes, in-game )

    According to Elite's lore, people live on different types of stellar bodies permanently for generations. If no artificial gravity exists, we have 2 options then:
    1. People will get a critical body/mind dysfunction and extinct
    2. People will adopt at a genetic level, survive and give a rise to a new sentient, not humans

  10. #40
    Originally Posted by Pyrobee View Post (Source)
    Centrifugal force exists only within a rotating frame of reference, it's purpose is to make Newtonian mechanics workin such a reference.
    Centrifugal force doesn't exist full stop, it is an engineering phantom. There is only inertia and centripetal force.

    Centripetal force acting as constant acceleration on an object within the confines of another rotating object is not 'gravity' in any way shape or form, but has some similar properties in observation.

    "Artificial Gravity" should be defined as a mechanism to create a localised gravitational field without the requirement for large amounts of mass in the vicinity. This is a staple of most SciFi films/tv (for budgetary reasons). It is not a feature of the ED universe, despite the (equally impossible) appearance of shields, FSD and hyperspace tech.

    Ergo, there is no "Artificial Gravity" in the ED universe.

    Cheers,

    Drew.
    • Drew wrote Elite: Reclamation during 2013 and is writing the new official Elite Dangerous novel Premonition for release in 2017 •

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    • Drew occasionally posts on this forum, but if you're looking for a quick answer you're are welcome to contact him via PM or via his website should you wish to do so •

  11. #41
    Originally Posted by Alaand View Post (Source)
    Yes, in-game )

    According to Elite's lore, people live on different types of stellar bodies permanently for generations. If no artificial gravity exists, we have 2 options then:
    1. People will get a critical body/mind dysfunction and extinct
    2. People will adopt at a genetic level, survive and give a rise to a new sentient, not humans
    I've seen some interesting discussions on when do we designate a descendant from Earth as no longer human. Permanent colonies on Mars would yield physically different people in a matter of generations. Would they be considered humans? They wouldn't be Earthlings.

    I'd assume that in 3303, genetic modification is commonplace....space faring people may be imbued with the resistances and buffs needed to exist in low gravity. Also, perhaps the suit would have some magnetic properties as well as boots. Adding a bit more weight for your bones.
    Commander Monk Edgecomb
    Duke, HIP 16858

    “If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”

  12. #42
    Originally Posted by Monk View Post (Source)
    I've seen some interesting discussions on when do we designate a descendant from Earth as no longer human. Permanent colonies on Mars would yield physically different people in a matter of generations. Would they be considered humans? They wouldn't be Earthlings.

    I'd assume that in 3303, genetic modification is commonplace....space faring people may be imbued with the resistances and buffs needed to exist in low gravity. Also, perhaps the suit would have some magnetic properties as well as boots. Adding a bit more weight for your bones.
    In Elite's universe people travel and move within a galaxy alot. From planet to planet, from 2G to 0.05 G. This means that they are genetically geared in such a way that they don't really care about gravity within some G-range, or there is some technology which provides conditions for survival.

  13. #43
    An argument that's basically about semantics: wonderful!. Drew has the right of it though.

  14. #44
    I think the problem is that I'm an I.T student and try to reason very differently from a physicist.

    I spoke to one of my tutors who is also a physics expert (I believe PhD in Physics from Uni of Cambridge), and he very simply put it that it's neither artificial nor simulated, gravity because it's not gravity in the first place, it's only a perception of gravity (if even that), which I now understand is what some of you were trying to say.

    However, my argument to that would be that you can buy peanut butter made from chemicals that give you the perception of peanut butter, it contains no peanuts it in at all. It is called artificial peanut butter. Surely then, it cannot be peanut butter as it never contained peanuts. However, it is still artificial peanut butter.

    That being said, it's also entirely true that I could have misunderstood him as well.
    And what fate befalls mutineers?

  15. #45
    Originally Posted by drew View Post (Source)
    Centrifugal force doesn't exist full stop, it is an engineering phantom. There is only inertia and centripetal force.

    Centripetal force acting as constant acceleration on an object within the confines of another rotating object is not 'gravity' in any way shape or form, but has some similar properties in observation.

    "Artificial Gravity" should be defined as a mechanism to create a localised gravitational field without the requirement for large amounts of mass in the vicinity. This is a staple of most SciFi films/tv (for budgetary reasons). It is not a feature of the ED universe, despite the (equally impossible) appearance of shields, FSD and hyperspace tech.

    Ergo, there is no "Artificial Gravity" in the ED universe.

    Cheers,

    Drew.
    Technically there should also be a "thrust gravity" where, if a ship's "floor" is oriented perpendicular to the thrust axis, the acceleration means things are pushed "downwards" in the same way as they are by normal and spin gravity. Incidentally, this is one of the reasons why Elite's larger ships don't make engineering sense, at least from what we've seen of them in the game - a deep space craft, especially one that doesn't have to land on planets (belly-landers are preferable if they're going to be carrying a lot of cargo or personnel planet-side, which gives rise to the whole "which way is down" problem) is going to have its decks oriented such that "down" is towards the engines (or rather, opposite the direction of motion, for the rare sail design powerful enough to produce pseudo-gravity), in order to take advantage of this effect. And yes, trying to use this and a centrifuge at the same time does result in "down" being at a weird angle unless you use some rather complicated engineering solutions. Take note, whoever was responsible for the Majestic's daft centrifuge placement.

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