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Thread: Multicrew without telepresence - Sign the Petition!

  1. #256
    Originally Posted by Ziljan View Post (Source)
    Using change.org for Elite polls is a bit like pan handling in front of a homeless shelter to get money for a VR headset.
    I agree. I would like real multi-crew, walking around stations, etc. in the future sometime. I'm not signing up on a change.org petition though.

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  2. #257
    Originally Posted by kofeyh View Post (Source)
    Sky is falling!

    It's not. It's not fallen since 1.0, still isn't falling. We have telepresence now because the developer can ship that in the time available; legs will, I am quite certain, shake things up entirely. The over-reaction to a basic mechanic designed to help players play together is full of hyperbole and exaggerated claims.

    We can, today, fly to the location before we elect to jump into another ship; this has very little to do with the mechanics and is simply a rejection of the leg-less methodology available at present because one simply isn't required to. It's patently obvious to me that it's not the mechanics, it's what the mechanics provide for. Choice.

    And, frankly, I don't much buy the boy crying wolf; it's not believable in the slightest.

    Nothing prevents this (ship ingress/ egress at a station or on a planetary surface) being added in the future and it is frontier's long term plan to add both legs, and the ability to use them. Nothing. It's always been the developers choice to add this and by all accounts being able to enter a ship and walking on said ship is 100% on the roadmap.

    I garun-freeling-tee you if we have the choice to walk around and physically join other people on other ships you better believe people will want to do that. But until that time, frontier is offering an alternative method. I am very glad they have.

    I am very very over the moral panic. It's getting old, ladies and gentlemen, and no-one is buying it. Sky hasn't fallen. It's not falling and frankly the unhinging over this is just plain pathetic.
    I get it, you're okay with FDev adding a dumb feature, purely to allow players to play a combat based game quickly - if this wasn't suppose to be an 'Elite' game, grounded in the lore of the 'Elite' games then it would fine - if FDev want to change this game into something that's 90% quick meaningless combat fun for people that just like shooting stuff and don't care anything else then they are killing the franchise that all the original fans signed up for and contributed to the original kick starter for.

    The idea of Elite is space is big, the distances are vast. The idea that we can now just magically beam our presence instantly over ANY distance is frankly insulting. David Braben has always love to claim that Elite is grounded in science and that the only rule they have to break to make the game work is the faster-than-light travel, now telepresence means we have the ability to beam video and controls instantly to anywhere in the entire galaxy. Even if they decided make a concession and limit it to a 1000ly range - it's still well beyond technology that's suppose to exist in 3303 in the Elite lore and it makes a mockery of other in game limitation. ( like getting trade data, like doing a galactic google search for a station near by that sells X ship or outfitting item, like being able to sell your exploration data from deep space back to any station you like - so many limitations that now have even less reason to exist )

    I fail to see how telepresence relates to space legs - I still want space legs, I want to be able to walk around my ship and walk around space ports and maybe even walk onto someone else's ship and fly with them as a crew member for while. I want to be able to EVA outside my ship in space to do hull repairs.

    What I don't want is the cop-out cheap answer of telepresence, where there are no consequences, I beam my ego to another ship so if things go bad, I don't die, I don't get a rebuy screen - I just get dumped back to my own ship - oh well - what a shame - I'll just magically jump onto some other random players ship and shoot some more stuff. ( aka I'll join another arena and fight some more, just like CQC ).

    Sure I can and will ignore the multi-pew feature as it's completely outside of the lore of 'Elite' game I bought and paid for - and I'll be staying out of open - why would I want to risk being attacked by a ship with 1 or 2 extra immortal players, onboard flying a SLF and using the magic external gunner view that gives them a much better view for combat that I have in my cockpit.


    FDev tried to make the 'jump-in-and-shoot-stuff' crowd happy by creating CQC - but they did such a bad job of match making/lobby side it's failed to really take off - multi-crew with telepresence would be perfectly fine in CQC - it's a simulation - like training exercises - I'd love to see CQC extended to have big ships and multi-crew and massive combat arenas - for quick meaningless combat - it would be a lot of fun and no one would blink an eye at the idea of zipping around from arena to arena and ship to ship like distance and space don't matter - because it's a simulation - it's a game within a game.
    Playing Elite - since 1985

  3. #258
    Originally Posted by danteuk View Post (Source)
    I get it, you're okay with FDev adding a dumb feature, purely to allow players to play a combat based game quickly - if this wasn't suppose to be an 'Elite' game, grounded in the lore of the 'Elite' games then it would fine - if FDev want to change this game into something that's 90% quick meaningless combat fun for people that just like shooting stuff and don't care anything else then they are killing the franchise that all the original fans signed up for and contributed to the original kick starter for.

    The idea of Elite is space is big, the distances are vast. The idea that we can now just magically beam our presence instantly over ANY distance is frankly insulting. David Braben has always love to claim that Elite is grounded in science and that the only rule they have to break to make the game work is the faster-than-light travel, now telepresence means we have the ability to beam video and controls instantly to anywhere in the entire galaxy. Even if they decided make a concession and limit it to a 1000ly range - it's still well beyond technology that's suppose to exist in 3303 in the Elite lore and it makes a mockery of other in game limitation. ( like getting trade data, like doing a galactic google search for a station near by that sells X ship or outfitting item, like being able to sell your exploration data from deep space back to any station you like - so many limitations that now have even less reason to exist )

    I fail to see how telepresence relates to space legs - I still want space legs, I want to be able to walk around my ship and walk around space ports and maybe even walk onto someone else's ship and fly with them as a crew member for while. I want to be able to EVA outside my ship in space to do hull repairs.

    What I don't want is the cop-out cheap answer of telepresence, where there are no consequences, I beam my ego to another ship so if things go bad, I don't die, I don't get a rebuy screen - I just get dumped back to my own ship - oh well - what a shame - I'll just magically jump onto some other random players ship and shoot some more stuff. ( aka I'll join another arena and fight some more, just like CQC ).

    Sure I can and will ignore the multi-pew feature as it's completely outside of the lore of 'Elite' game I bought and paid for - and I'll be staying out of open - why would I want to risk being attacked by a ship with 1 or 2 extra immortal players, onboard flying a SLF and using the magic external gunner view that gives them a much better view for combat that I have in my cockpit.


    FDev tried to make the 'jump-in-and-shoot-stuff' crowd happy by creating CQC - but they did such a bad job of match making/lobby side it's failed to really take off - multi-crew with telepresence would be perfectly fine in CQC - it's a simulation - like training exercises - I'd love to see CQC extended to have big ships and multi-crew and massive combat arenas - for quick meaningless combat - it would be a lot of fun and no one would blink an eye at the idea of zipping around from arena to arena and ship to ship like distance and space don't matter - because it's a simulation - it's a game within a game.
    I love it when grown men are 'insulted' when they dont like the implemention of a feature in one patch of a game. why not add some mandatory paranoia for scary griefers and its a classic. Oh wait, you ready did.


  4. #259
    Definitely WILL NOT sign the petition.
    Because now, for the first time, I am able to go on exploration and still be able to play with my friends.

    edit:
    For the "immurshion"-freaks: I am able to chat with commanders in real-time while being myriads of light-years away - why shouldn't I be able to send command instructions to a remote ship instead?

  5. #260
    Originally Posted by sleutelbos View Post (Source)
    I love it when grown men are 'insulted' when they dont like the implemention of a feature in one patch of a game. why not add some mandatory paranoia for scary griefers and its a classic. Oh wait, you ready did.
    yep - it's sad but true - as a grown man I still care when a fantasy universe I've known and loved for over 20 years to suddenly introduce a new 'feature' that makes no sense within the game world - just to allow casual gamers a quick way to jump in and start shooting stuff. We have CQC or Quake3 or Doom for quick mindless shooting - nothing wrong that ( I love Quake and Doom ).

    And yes I hate griefers - but in one-on-one I accepted it ( like life, the world is full of a-holes ) but I still hated having my ship destroyed by a mindless idiot while I was in my SRV at a Ruins site. Multi-pew just makes it worse and more unbalanced.

    I guess I'll just have live with FDev trying to turn ED into an Arcade Shooter. As long as groups like Mobuis exist that's where I'll be playing.

    Maybe a simple answer for FDev - just add a PvE mode ( works like Open except all weapons only work against NPCs ). Less balance problems - No griefers - Plus Multi-crew joining requires you to be at the same station as the ship you are joining and ending the session results in you respawning at that same station again with nothing - or the ship re-docks at the original station to drop you off, so you get to keep whatever rewards you've earned. ( yes that makes it a much slower process - but at least it's grounded in a current game lore ).
    Playing Elite - since 1985

  6. #261
    Originally Posted by danteuk View Post (Source)
    Maybe a simple answer for FDev - just add a PvE mode ( works like Open except all weapons only work against NPCs ). Less balance problems - No griefers - Plus Multi-crew joining requires you to be at the same station as the ship you are joining and ending the session results in you respawning at that same station again with nothing - or the ship re-docks at the original station to drop you off, so you get to keep whatever rewards you've earned. ( yes that makes it a much slower process - but at least it's grounded in a current game lore ).
    All this grieving could be countered if there was finally an effective punishment if breaking the law. E.g. You shoot another player in a security system - you get fined with half of your ships value. You kill him and you get fined with his and your ships value + you get an indicator that you are outlawed for X minutes and free to be killed by anybody who then gets a reward. Oh, and of course, police hunts you, too. Until you have paid your fine. Suicidewinder does NOT remove it. Also, there should be a system-wide emergency broadcast to all players who informs you about law-breaking incidents and that bounty hunters are needed to support the law (+ who and where). This can also be a nice addition to the present mission system.

    As an alternative, your proposition of a PvE-Mode is also good. People can shoot each other for no damage. Still, you can challenge another player who can or cannot respond for a duel - and then they can hit each other.

    Anyway, still the telepresence should stay in game because then, for the first time, I am able to go on exploration and still be able to play with my friends.

  7. #262
    Originally Posted by Amaruq View Post (Source)
    Definitely WILL NOT sign the petition.
    Because now, for the first time, I am able to go on exploration and still be able to play with my friends.

    edit:
    For the "immurshion"-freaks: I am able to chat with commanders in real-time while being myriads of light-years away - why shouldn't I be able to send command instructions to a remote ship instead?
    It's not so much about the "why not" of telepresence, it's more about the "why do anything for real then?" question it raises. Of course you can set the rule for your universe that telepresence is possible, but it raises the question why we shouldn't go full on Surrogates then?

    The real world answer is: Because that's not the kind of wish fulfilment we're looking for, and FDev even acknowledged this with the infamous "It'd be a bit rubbish" quote.

    The opposite is far easier to explain with a real world analogy: In the 90s it was totally possible to transfer voice digitally over the air but video would use way too much bandwith, same here, just with the 3000 year bonus that it's FTL communication across thousands of lightyears.

  8. #263
    Originally Posted by vulkman View Post (Source)
    It's not so much about the "why not" of telepresence, it's more about the "why do anything for real then?"
    Because it is a GAME! That is meant to be entertaining. You could see it as an option to play with other people despite being far away exploring. Why would you want to lock out these players from interaction with other players?
    This is a nice way to do it - no matter what you call it.

    TIn the 90s it was totally possible to transfer voice digitally over the air but video would use way too much bandwith, same here, just with the 3000 year bonus that it's FTL communication across thousands of lightyears.
    "It'd be a bit rubbish" - This quotation fits right here then.

  9. #264
    Originally Posted by Amaruq View Post (Source)
    Because it is a GAME! That is meant to be entertaining. You could see it as an option to play with other people despite being far away exploring. Why would you want to lock out these players from interaction with other players?
    This is a nice way to do it - no matter what you call it..
    Its a game in a fictional setting, and a fictional setting needs to be logical and consistant.

    Let me explain with an example. If you were watching star wars (a movie in a fictional setting) and it got to the point where darth vadar kill obi one and luke turned around and said noooo! I'll click my fingers and travel back in time 10 minutes and stop it! Would that be "fine because its a movie" ? despite it adding a totally new element that breaks all the rules of the setting?

    This is the same kind of thing exactly!

    Also it is 100% un needed!

    They could add the same instant join multi crew from anywhere in the game WITHOUT this setting breaking mechanism by having the player play the role of one of the ships crew instead. 100% no difference to the current mechanics but without this telepresecence nonsense that breaks all consistency in the setting.

  10. #265
    Originally Posted by Blaize Meduenin View Post (Source)
    Its a game in a fictional setting, and a fictional setting needs to be logical and consistant.

    Let me explain with an example. If you were watching star wars (a movie in a fictional setting) and it got to the point where darth vadar kill obi one and luke turned around and said noooo! I'll click my fingers and travel back in time 10 minutes and stop it! Would that be "fine because its a movie" ? despite it adding a totally new element that breaks all the rules of the setting?

    This is the same kind of thing exactly!

    Also it is 100% un needed!

    They could add the same instant join multi crew from anywhere in the game WITHOUT this setting breaking mechanism by having the player play the role of one of the ships crew instead. 100% no difference to the current mechanics but without this telepresecence nonsense that breaks all consistency in the setting.
    Actually there is a difference. Doing it the way you specify the player is stuck on the ship of that other player. If he/she wants to leave the multi-crew ship, he/she has to wait for his his ship or one of his ships to be transported there. Since he has no ship, the departing player is stuck there for the 5 or 10 or 20 or 30 minutes until his/her ship is delivered. And how could he/she leave when the ship they are crew on is in flight? Eject? Then what, instantly at the nearest station? And that wouldn't break the mechanism?

    Sorry, from what I can see, the way they are doing it is the only way they can do it and have instant join/leave.


    AMD Quad 4.2Ghz 8GB RAM - AMD RX-460 2GB

  11. #266
    Being stuck in a ship is a good thing. It provides consequences for choices and a sense of agency in the game, making the overall game more compelling, meaningful, and immersive. I will never touch anything telepresence in the game ever and stop playing it if I am ever forced to to maintain a viable style of play.

    Other people can do whatever they want. They're not really my problem.

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  12. #267
    Originally Posted by KellyR View Post (Source)
    And how could he/she leave when the ship they are crew on is in flight? Eject? Then what, instantly at the nearest station? And that wouldn't break the mechanism?

    Sorry, from what I can see, the way they are doing it is the only way they can do it and have instant join/leave.
    Ejecting would be the same as the already-in-game ship loss mechanic, so I don't see it as an additional problem. Normally you wouldn't be ejecting, but if someone decided to troll you and park their ship next to a station and go to sleep IRL, what are you gonna do.

  13. #268
    Originally Posted by space pilot View Post (Source)
    Ejecting would be the same as the already-in-game ship loss mechanic, so I don't see it as an additional problem. Normally you wouldn't be ejecting, but if someone decided to troll you and park their ship next to a station and go to sleep IRL, what are you gonna do.
    And if you're forced to eject on the other side of the galaxy, I would be more than pleased to go and pick you up. We could even make a Fuel Rats style group for it. Talk about meaningful and compelling gameplay. But I digress...

    ...

    Yes, ejecting and being returned to your meetup station is likely how that would work game-mechanic-wise.

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  14. #269
    Originally Posted by WR3ND View Post (Source)
    And if you're forced to eject on the other side of the galaxy, I would be more than pleased to go and pick you up. We could even make a Fuel Rats style group for it. Talk about meaningful and compelling gameplay. But I digress...
    Sure, and meanwhile wait for hours doing nothing. But you gonna tell me that this is the real deal somehow, I guess.

    Originally Posted by Blaize Meduenin View Post (Source)
    Its a game in a fictional setting, and a fictional setting needs to be logical and consistant.
    I know. It would be breaking if they would have simply put you in another's player ship and "beaming" you there through time and space. But they didn't! They "invented" telepresence to make it consistent.
    Now please tell me in which way telepresence is more a logic breaker than FTL travel?

  15. #270
    Originally Posted by Amaruq View Post (Source)
    Now please tell me in which way telepresence is more a logic breaker than FTL travel?
    It's faster than faster than light.

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