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Thread: Is the barrier of entry to experience PVP too high?

  1. #166
    Originally Posted by Jason Lightning View Post (Source)
    This thread can basically be summed up with two different complaints, that PvP takes too long to get because of engineering requirements and grinding, and that exploited ships have too many 'god-rolls' to be fought fairly.

    To that end, the simple solution that has been proposed so often is to remove the RNG factor of engineers, one roll gets you a set result per module, with maybe minor player-chosen tweaking via point or slider system. Now the only barrier is unlocking the engineer and collecting the materials to get a single roll per module on your ship of choice. This means you can build multiple fully-optimized ships in the time you would need to build one decently RNG ship. Plus no more need to play musical chairs with your good rolled equipment, since building a new ship is far easier.

    If you don't like the current barrier to PvP, and want to kill the exploit completely, then help push Frontier to consider fixed outcome engineer rolls. It's the solution that pleases the most people, no more lottery luck in getting your ship built.
    This, I feel, is the only real fix for this mess, and that's pretty much the only name for it, because it is a mess. They need to fix it, even if it costs them their beloved rng grind. Engineers has made the game worse, not better.

  2. #167
    Originally Posted by masCh View Post (Source)
    I brought a mate as wing to a CG system today. He's somewhat new, he has an A-rated Federal Assault Ship that is designed to hull tank.

    To cut the story short, we met with various opposition ship types (Viper to Corvette) but it was just so frustrating to see him get killed within 10 seconds from many of our engagements despite him being able to fly exclusively with FA-off, even by ships way lower in price.

    He doesn't have Horizons but will buy it this week, but it seems he's got a long way to go before he can enter another PVP match. He'll first have to become ally to Sirius, then get 25 modular terminals, then upgrade various modules to Grade 3, then learn to use SRV, then find unknown fragments, and then grind Prof Palin. And that's to access to just 1 module.

    We're not even talking about finding the materials and data that is required to upgrade the modules yet.

    So starting from an A-rated ship, it may take him months before he can start PVP.

    Is the barrier of entry too high?
    Yeah the barrier seems very high to battle opponents in random systems. Most PvPers have engineered ships and test them out at Community Goals or high areas where PowerPlay is focused at. The grind for engineers is just rediculous, and needs to be a lot easier than what it should be (they could, however, maintain the grind for unlocking them). More importantly, engineers feels more of a Pay2Win as you need Horizons to be able to engineer your ship. I'm sure many will disagree with my opinion, however it is plain obvious when you die to an over-engineered ship at a CG.

    Bare minimum PvP ship is a Viper MKIII, as it's a very good ship for combat. Cobra MKIII can do combat as well, but is more of a multi-role ship. My best advice is to find somewhere that can hold weekly PvP events. Galactic Combat Initiative is a great discord for organizing fights, engineered or not. Mentors are there to help you with builds, flying, etc. Be careful if he hull tanks against ships like the FDL, as some of them may have module-sniping rails or may focus on your PP directly with multis/plasma. Silent Running can be useful so the opponent doesn't know where to shoot.

    As a side note, PvP is pretty fun when you get into it. Despite all the bad reputation it gets like "ganking", "griefing", etc. It's understandable if they die in a trade ship and not a combat ship. I would really like to see FD overhauling CQC to make the experience enjoyable for newcomers. As much as PvE is sometimes fun, it can be also fun to challenge a friend in PvP. Overtime it can actually improve your skill and make you become a better fighter pilot such as the Thargoids returning.

  3. #168
    Originally Posted by m0rl0ck View Post (Source)
    This would be second best to removing the RNGineers altogether.
    I do like my enhanced thrusters and FSD, so I prefer the fixed method.

  4. #169
    Eh, credits used to be a barrier to entry, back at launch when making 2-3 m cr/hour was considered good income for an anaconda/type 9. Then fdev made credits super easy to get via smuggling missions, long range misssions etc. Nowadays, 10-15m cr/hour isn't unheard of for an asp via mission stacking.

    Today the barrier to entry is engineers, not credits. But there's always been some barrier to entry like this in elite. Don't believe me? Go back and look at threads from 2-3 years ago - people complained about credits then. PvP in elite was never really about "fair" or "balanced" encounters. There is no "MLG", "Competitive", "Pro", or "Esports" scene in elite. CQC was aimed at that, and look how that turned out.

    Not saying the RNG grind is a good thing, just that the grind was always a thing.

  5. #170
    Originally Posted by PotatoOverdose View Post (Source)
    Eh, credits used to be a barrier to entry, back at launch when making 2-3 m cr/hour was considered good income for an anaconda/type 9. Then fdev made credits super easy to get via smuggling missions, long range misssions etc. Nowadays, 10-15m cr/hour isn't unheard of for an asp via mission stacking.

    Today the barrier to entry is engineers, not credits. But there's always been some barrier to entry like this in elite. Don't believe me? Go back and look at threads from 2-3 years ago - people complained about credits then. PvP in elite was never really about "fair" or "balanced" encounters. There is no "MLG", "Competitive", "Pro", or "Esports" scene in elite. CQC was aimed at that, and look how that turned out.

    Not saying the RNG grind is a good thing, just that the grind was always a thing.
    Agree.

    Everything in a game is a grind of some sorts. Super Mario was a grind, repetitive, running through scrolling landscape just to bump the head against blocks to get coins.

    Also, the engineers, even if there was a sliding mechanics, it still would be "unfair". There would be a grind to get the materials, a hurdle to get the weapons to fight on the same level. If the engineers where free, then there still would be the access to engineers that was unfair. And all engineers were accessibly to everyone, then suddenly, why even do engineering and not just have pre-engineered weapons and modules, but then, it's back to the credits (cost) to buy them which makes it unfair. So all modules, pre-engineered to everyone for free, and pre-installed on all ships, and make all ships equal, what do we get? Not a game to play anymore. The challenge (grind to some) is what makes this game to what it is.

    One player's grind is another player's game.


  6. #171
    Originally Posted by Ziljan View Post (Source)
    I think you can keep secondaries, but just remove their ability to exceed the normal max value.
    Meh, the secondaries was just an excuse to add yet another layer of rng/rep grind (which the cheaters also avoided). Lose em.

  7. #172
    Originally Posted by Jason Lightning View Post (Source)
    Limpets may have gotten buffed since you last recall, I can personally attest that they are now faster than ever and nigh immune to Point defense. The second they latch on the PD stops anyway. Also I actually had a few medium ships try rolling, it didn't work since the newer speedier limpets were fast enough to get to the hatch anyway. Besides, the shielded ships aren't exactly the most agile things anyway at spinning.

    ECM isn't for the dumbfires, its for doing a Rare Trade CG to stop limpets. Even the most shielded ship can be hatchbreaked via FSD missiles and a single limpet, I did that quite a fair bit last Rare CG. And point defense is unable to stop a pair of FSD missiles from working at close range, which the big ships aren't able to prevent.

    Edit: seriously the PD is rather inaccurate against hatchbreaker and semi-unreliable against twin dumbfires, only one needs to touch after all. Personally if I were building a trader I'd ditch the PD in favor of more shielding and an ECM.
    This hasn't been my experience with either but that could have more to do with when the person pirating tries to launch the limpet (more distance, easier to kill with pd). I usually put multiples around my hatch if I'm going to haul anything and have never had one hit me. I actually put fsd and thruster killing mines on all my trade and exploration ships. I keep PD on the forward end of any pirate ship specifically to kill mines that might kill my engines. I find it all around fairly useful when for pirating and trading, pretty useless for a fight to the death though.

    Originally Posted by Wolf Starslayer View Post (Source)
    Not changed, but be aware mines can have a reboot normal drives special; which will also stop FSD charge.
    Ever trader should have these.

    Originally Posted by PotatoOverdose View Post (Source)
    Eh, credits used to be a barrier to entry, back at launch when making 2-3 m cr/hour was considered good income for an anaconda/type 9. Then fdev made credits super easy to get via smuggling missions, long range misssions etc. Nowadays, 10-15m cr/hour isn't unheard of for an asp via mission stacking.

    Today the barrier to entry is engineers, not credits. But there's always been some barrier to entry like this in elite. Don't believe me? Go back and look at threads from 2-3 years ago - people complained about credits then. PvP in elite was never really about "fair" or "balanced" encounters. There is no "MLG", "Competitive", "Pro", or "Esports" scene in elite. CQC was aimed at that, and look how that turned out.

    Not saying the RNG grind is a good thing, just that the grind was always a thing.
    When credits were the only grind there was far less of a difference between large and small ships. That meant a small ship flown well could kill a large one. With engineers the only thing that kills a large ship is the CMDR'S own stupidity. Small and medium hardpoints were much more effective which made cheap ships just fine for PVP. Now with engineers not only are the defenses and weapons way over the base versions but the relationships of those base modules has drastically changed. Comparing this grind to the original grind is just madness.

  8. #173
    Originally Posted by -Denali- View Post (Source)
    When credits were the only grind there was far less of a difference between large and small ships. That meant a small ship flown well could kill a large one. With engineers the only thing that kills a large ship is the CMDR'S own stupidity. Small and medium hardpoints were much more effective which made cheap ships just fine for PVP. Now with engineers not only are the defenses and weapons way over the base versions but the relationships of those base modules has drastically changed. Comparing this grind to the original grind is just madness.
    Nope.

    When credits were the only grind, before a bunch of nerfs, Pythons could boost and turn faster then a Viper. Oh, and there was no Vulture/FdL/Courrier/Viper mkIV with 500 mj of shields. Small ships got like maybe 70-100 mj of shielding, and that was considered good. This was back when men were men.

    Tbh, I think a lot of people forgot the original grind, or simply joined after Fdev made credits super easy to come buy. It used to take people 20-30 hours to get into an asp and ~100 hours for a barebones python. If they were lucky, and cashed in on the seeking luxuries sites, you could maybe clock in an anaconda around hour 150 or 200.

    Nowadays, you do a few long range missions in an adder or cobra, you have an asp around the 6 hour mark. From there, at 10-20mil cr/hour from long range mission stacking you can get a barebones anaconda around the 20-30 hr mark. I think the record posted on reddit was 7 hours from a clean save to an anaconda, but that was from a person intimately familiar with the system.

    I think most of the current playerbase came in after the initial 6-9 months, or forgot the initial 6-9 months + beta. Fdev turned the grind way down. To be "competitive" in the first 3 months (i.e. a pre nerf python that was faster and nimbler then a viper, A-rated modules and mil spec armor) needed about 100-200 hours of credit grind, give or take.

    Nowadays you need 40 hours or so of credit grind for an A rated fdl + python/asp/conda (any half-decent multi role will do, really) for engineers content, and maybe 160 or so hours for engineers grind. Yeah that's a lot. About as much as the early grind for an A spec python.

    Not saying it's a good thing, I just remember the seeking luxuries grind of old around Beta Tucanae and how stoked I was to make 3 mil cr/hour in a python (after 30-50 hours of getting to the python).

  9. #174
    Originally Posted by PotatoOverdose View Post (Source)
    Nope.

    When credits were the only grind, before a bunch of nerfs, Pythons could boost and turn faster then a Viper.

    Tbh, I think a lot of people forgot the original grind, or simply joined after Fdev made credits super easy to come buy. It used to take people 20-30 hours to get into an asp and ~100 hours for a barebones python. If they were lucky, and cashed in on the seeking luxuries sites, you could maybe clock in an anaconda around hour 150 or 200.

    Nowadays, you do a few long range missions in an adder or cobra, you have an asp around the 6 hour mark. From there, at 10-20mil cr/hour from long range mission stacking you can get a barebones anaconda around the 20-30 hr mark. I think the record posted on reddit was 7 hours from a clean save to an anaconda, but that was from a person intimately familiar with the system.

    I think most of the current playerbase came in after the initial 6-9 months, or forgot the initial 6-9 months + beta. Fdev turned the grind way down. To be "competitive" in the first 3 months (i.e. a pre nerf python that was faster and nimbler then a viper, A-rated modules and mil spec armor) needed about 100-200 hours of credit grind, give or take.

    Nowadays you need 40 hours or so of credit grind for an A rated fdl + python/asp/conda (any half-decent multi role will do, really) for engineers content, and maybe 160 or so hours for engineers grind. Yeah that's a lot. About as much as the early grind for an A spec python.

    Not saying it's a good thing, I just remember the seeking luxuries grind of old around Beta Tucanae and how stoked I was to make 3 mil cr/hour in a python (after 30-50 hours of getting to the python).
    My point wasn't that it was fast to get large ships, but that you could reasonable fight one from a cheaper, smaller ship. That meant fun and rewarding PVP was more accessible. When I started I would gladly attack a conda in my cheap ole DBS. Pythons were king for a time. They got nerfed and replaced by the FDL not too long after I finally got one. I really think combat started to go downhill from there.

  10. #175
    Originally Posted by -Denali- View Post (Source)
    This hasn't been my experience with either but that could have more to do with when the person pirating tries to launch the limpet (more distance, easier to kill with pd). I usually put multiples around my hatch if I'm going to haul anything and have never had one hit me. I actually put fsd and thruster killing mines on all my trade and exploration ships. I keep PD on the forward end of any pirate ship specifically to kill mines that might kill my engines. I find it all around fairly useful when for pirating and trading, pretty useless for a fight to the death though.
    Well keep in mind that as one using said limpets quite often I've seen them in action quite often, rarely they get shot down, and the success rate has been high even against builds that were loaded with PD (where shield boosters may have helped them to be honest).

    As for mines, I've encountered them every now and then, but they are a minimal threat as I check subtargets first and don't fly right behind the target. They won't work against a fast or experienced pirate, and are no substitute for having better shields and perhaps an ECM depending on the cargo/ship.

  11. #176
    Originally Posted by -Denali- View Post (Source)
    My point wasn't that it was fast to get large ships, but that you could reasonable fight one from a cheaper, smaller ship. That meant fun and rewarding PVP was more accessible. When I started I would gladly attack a conda in my cheap ole DBS. Pythons were king for a time. They got nerfed and replaced by the FDL not too long after I finally got one. I really think combat started to go downhill from there.
    But your wrong. That wasn't true. Smaller ships were never actually competitive early on. Look at the first 3 months after launch on these forums. Droves and droves of viper pilots whining about pythons that were faster, turned better, had more shields and firepower than they did.

    Have you ever stopped to think about why the python turns slower than a conda? There's a reason ...

    And btw, the fact that you started with a dbs proves my point. You weren't around for the early grind. You came in when we already had ships like the vulture that could get 500+ mj of shielding and 2 large hardpoints on a platform almost as nimble as an eagle for like 20 mil A-rated? That's my point - the grind used to be so much worse, many people simply weren't around for it, or forgot.

    Elite has always been grindy. Atm it's nowhere near maximum grind. Not saying this is good or bad, just saying it's a thing.

  12. #177
    Originally Posted by Spacecat View Post (Source)
    I do like my enhanced thrusters and FSD, so I prefer the fixed method.
    Lol make up your mind, your previous comment said the engineers made your game worse. I like them and it gives me something to do as an end game. Engineers havn't killed PvP, it's still alive and well because ppl still play in open.

  13. #178
    Originally Posted by PotatoOverdose View Post (Source)
    But your wrong. That wasn't true. Smaller ships were never actually competitive early on. Look at the first 3 months after launch on these forums. Droves and droves of viper pilots whining about pythons that were faster, turned better, had more shields and firepower than they did.

    Have you ever stopped to think about why the python turns slower than a conda? There's a reason ...

    And btw, the fact that you started with a dbs proves my point. You weren't around for the early grind. You came in when we already had ships like the vulture that could get 500+ mj of shielding and 2 large hardpoints on a platform almost as nimble as an eagle for like 20 mil A-rated? That's my point - the grind used to be so much worse, many people simply weren't around for it, or forgot.

    Elite has always been grindy. Atm it's nowhere near maximum grind. Not saying this is good or bad, just saying it's a thing.
    I feel those costs back then made sense though and weren't grind for the sake of it. I remember when I finally got myself a cobra and it was a huge moment for me. After that it took a good while to A rate the thing.
    Remember when fuel scoops were a good investment not just for travel but because it kept fuel costs down? I remember moving from a Hauler to a Viper and being shocked at the fuel prices. It was awesome. I had to consider things like running costs, fuel efficiency, etc etc and missions could keep me running but finding a decent trade rout was golden which is why I'd stayed in the hauler so long. The cobra was just amazing. For the first time I could get involved in combat and trade all at once.
    Those were good aspects of the game. I don't sell what we have now short though. Despite complaints I enjoy planetary landings, using the srv... I absolutely love SLFs and being able to own a fleet rather than one ship at a time is great too! There's a lot I like about the game and even the stuff I don't like it's not because it's a bad idea it's just not well implemented or thought out. Engineers being the major case in point.

  14. #179
    Originally Posted by Ozram View Post (Source)
    I feel those costs back then made sense though and weren't grind for the sake of it. I remember when I finally got myself a cobra and it was a huge moment for me. After that it took a good while to A rate the thing.
    Remember when fuel scoops were a good investment not just for travel but because it kept fuel costs down? I remember moving from a Hauler to a Viper and being shocked at the fuel prices. It was awesome. I had to consider things like running costs, fuel efficiency, etc etc and missions could keep me running but finding a decent trade rout was golden which is why I'd stayed in the hauler so long. The cobra was just amazing. For the first time I could get involved in combat and trade all at once.
    Those were good aspects of the game. I don't sell what we have now short though. Despite complaints I enjoy planetary landings, using the srv... I absolutely love SLFs and being able to own a fleet rather than one ship at a time is great too! There's a lot I like about the game and even the stuff I don't like it's not because it's a bad idea it's just not well implemented or thought out. Engineers being the major case in point.
    Yeah, RNG mats needed from RNG missions or RNG USS to unlock engineers that need RNG mats for an RNG dice roll that may or may not give you what you want is far from ideal.

    At the same time, it's super easy to get into an asp/vulture/fdl/python/anaconda these days, and make like 10-20 mil cr hour. Like, the grind needed back then was obviously linear. Do X hours of luxury trading, get your python/conda. Now, you get your ships super fast, and then go into RNGineers hoping that you get what you want on the first few rolls, but in reality it will take 100-200 hours to get to an "optimal" place - which is about the same length of time as it took to A-rate a python at launch.

    Tbh, i think the slot machine mechanic really backfired. People expect to get what they want on a roll early on, and are dissapointed when that doesn't happen. If you get 88 mil credits, you can guarantee an A-rated FdL. But if you spend 4 hours farming for mats, you're not guaranteed a god roll. Engineers might take as much time as the old grind, but it is very different from the linear guaranteed progression that people expect when upgrading from a sidewinder to a vulture. That can be quite jarring.

  15. #180
    The difference is, back on those days EVERYBODY was grinding and nobody was fighting an end-game ship.

    Therefore your PVP fights were much more closer to an equal level fight.

    Nowadays, because you can keep your God-rolled G5 mods even after you die - you'll always be above the rest. Anyone just starting to PVP will never be able to touch you even in the same ship with the same equipment unengineered.

    I do believe this could change if all your engineer modifications disappear after you die.

    Yes there will be a grind - but then everybody else his also grinding. There will be no permanent end-game ship that you grind for to fight with on an equal footing. Everybody will be in the process of grinding therefore everybody will be at pretty much the same equipment level.

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