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Thread: Murder hobos vs CG piracy

  1. #61
    Originally Posted by CPTVICKERS View Post (Source)
    <snip>
    Your first paragraph is in the most part decent analysis but then you had to go and spoil it by falling back on the tired old tropes of people 'hiding' in solo and being 'terrified'.

    It may be true for some; for me though (and many others as the forums will attest) it's really much simpler. I don't in general play games to 'meet people'. I play games to play games. Gaming is and always has been primarily some time I can spend away from people, not because I'm socially phobic or inept but just because after a full day at work where I'm dealing with, yes you guessed it, people, I just want to switch off for a bit.

    'Griefers' don't win because I decide to do what I want, they are just as irrelevant to my decisions as (no offence intended) you.

    Originally Posted by Ozram View Post (Source)
    Easiest solution is to have a different style of bounty for murder and for damage. IOW, perhaps have the PF bounties reserved for the PKs and everything else as local.

    Yeah they're going to have to address it in some way for sure, I mean I get OP's point completely. I've said before, space pirates are about as classical a sci-fi trope as you'll ever see and totally have a place in the game, so it's going to need some careful balancing.

    One of the biggest problems comes from the sheer scale of the game world we have; traditionally you'd have the 'pirate system' with the requisite scary-looking base and the rum-guzzlers would all hang out there raiding the surrounding systems before retreating back to base for grog and booty. No not that kind. Well Ok, some. Players of a non-piratical bent would fear the pirate system and would only venture inside in strong combat ships, looking to sweep the wretched hive of scum and villainy clean. Etc.

    It worked great for Freelancer with its 20-odd systems but in this game with 20,000 systems or so in the bubble alone, it's a non-starter and we definitely can't have a situation where a player who chooses to play as a pirate finds himself only able to operate in a handful of 'super-anarchy' systems. Partly because it defeats the entire object of playing in a vast galaxy but mainly because they'd never see a legitimate trader bumbling along waiting to be pulled over and robbed to begin with as those players wouldn't go within 10 jumps of any such system in a lightly armed trade ship.

    However surely part of the experience and the appeal of playing as a pirate is being wanted by the law and evading them? Without that, a pirate is basically just a trader who doesn't bother buying stuff.

  2. #62
    Originally Posted by DukeIronHand View Post (Source)
    There's the reasoning! Sounds like your perfect for it.
    Blaze your own trail. Have fun.
    Well Elite does need some danger to let it live up to it's name doesn't it? However given my lack of PVP experience in ED I might not provide that much danger TBH!

    IMO ED PVE is a too easy as there is very little danger to you or your ship. I do hope the Thargoids will come along and ROLFMSTOMP people and that FD don't fall into the trap of giving us super weapons to just blap them like any other NPC you want to kill. I don't think it will happen though because as soon as the NPC's start showing any signs of some competence about them the forum light up with 'The NPC's cheat!', 'It's all too hard now!' etc etc.

    Most of the arguments I see on the forums about 'griefer's' and 'murder hobo's' are normally from anti-pvp'ers and they would only be happy if pvp was completely wiped out. And in all honesty that was seen y FD and that is why there is Solo and PG's for those who don't want pvp to happen. Heck even the OP asked if he could do some pirating in Mobius and got rejected. (Don't have anything against Mobius btw. I find most in there are ok as long as you don't mention pvp)

    In a game so big as ED PVP only rarely happens but when it does it has so much more 'impact' so to speak. You often hear about people getting jumped by a CMDR flying this or other combat ship and how the target turned the tables and blasted him to bits or ran him off to high wake. Or how you lowly T-6 noob pilot gets away with a daring escape from an incompetent pirate CMDR hands shaking and breathing hard but with a big grin on his face. But you don't often hear about how an 'Elite' combat pilot went into a HAZRes and killed all the things in his blinged out, heavy engineered Vette for 3 hours.

    PVE is the backbone of 99.999999% of games of this style yet the most talked about things are usually involving player interaction.

    /anyways back to work And everyone feel free to kill me if you see me! o7
    CMDR Madrax573

    Praeliator of the dark places!

    Come check out the daft FA-off pilots!

    Discord - https://discord.gg/EN39rcP

    Or my really bad FA-off vids

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpZ...VXvEUGfJyvmXCg

  3. #63
    Originally Posted by Red Anders View Post (Source)
    Your first paragraph is in the most part decent analysis but then you had to go and spoil it by falling back on the tired old tropes of people 'hiding' in solo and being 'terrified'.

    It may be true for some; for me though (and many others as the forums will attest) it's really much simpler. I don't in general play games to 'meet people'. I play games to play games. Gaming is and always has been primarily some time I can spend away from people, not because I'm socially phobic or inept but just because after a full day at work where I'm dealing with, yes you guessed it, people, I just want to switch off for a bit.

    'Griefers' don't win because I decide to do what I want, they are just as irrelevant to my decisions as (no offence intended) you.




    Yeah they're going to have to address it in some way for sure, I mean I get OP's point completely. I've said before, space pirates are about as classical a sci-fi trope as you'll ever see and totally have a place in the game, so it's going to need some careful balancing.

    One of the biggest problems comes from the sheer scale of the game world we have; traditionally you'd have the 'pirate system' with the requisite scary-looking base and the rum-guzzlers would all hang out there raiding the surrounding systems before retreating back to base for grog and booty. No not that kind. Well Ok, some. Players of a non-piratical bent would fear the pirate system and would only venture inside in strong combat ships, looking to sweep the wretched hive of scum and villainy clean. Etc.

    It worked great for Freelancer with its 20-odd systems but in this game with 20,000 systems or so in the bubble alone, it's a non-starter and we definitely can't have a situation where a player who chooses to play as a pirate finds himself only able to operate in a handful of 'super-anarchy' systems. Partly because it defeats the entire object of playing in a vast galaxy but mainly because they'd never see a legitimate trader bumbling along waiting to be pulled over and robbed to begin with as those players wouldn't go within 10 jumps of any such system in a lightly armed trade ship.

    However surely part of the experience and the appeal of playing as a pirate is being wanted by the law and evading them? Without that, a pirate is basically just a trader who doesn't bother buying stuff.
    Totally agree. A CLEAN pirate? Please!

  4. #64
    Whenever people talk about how the game should be more dangerous I wonder why they never mention an upper limit to what's okay.

    Nobody wants to be bored, but nobody wants to be in a constant state of panic either. Most probably just want to feel like a badass, some want the thrill of surviving against the odds.

    I think some don't care about death though (their own or anyone elses), and that doesn't sit well with me.

    If there's a group of players I couldn't give a fig about meeting in-game, it's the ones that think it's just a game.

  5. #65
    Originally Posted by Riverside View Post (Source)
    Whenever people talk about how the game should be more dangerous I wonder why they never mention an upper limit to what's okay.

    Nobody wants to be bored, but nobody wants to be in a constant state of panic either. Most probably just want to feel like a badass, some want the thrill of surviving against the odds.

    I think some don't care about death though (their own or anyone elses), and that doesn't sit well with me.

    If there's a group of players I couldn't give a fig about meeting in-game, it's the ones that think it's just a game.
    But it is just a game....when it become more than a game you've become too invested in it to look at it clearly. Thats one defining trait of an addict.

    The best players IMO are the ones who do realise that it's just a game but take on a persona and play to that, be it a trader, bounty hunter, pirate or maniacal killer but can still shrug and say 'it's just a game' at the end of their session regardless of how well it went or if they lost it all.

    As for upper limits to the danger? Well I reckon there should be places you just don't go unless you are a fully competent pilot with a blinged out ship and a couple of equally competent buddies along for the ride. As it stand now I am not afraid to go anywhere in my lightly modified Cobra IV.
    CMDR Madrax573

    Praeliator of the dark places!

    Come check out the daft FA-off pilots!

    Discord - https://discord.gg/EN39rcP

    Or my really bad FA-off vids

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpZ...VXvEUGfJyvmXCg

  6. #66
    Originally Posted by Madrax573 View Post (Source)
    But it is just a game....when it become more than a game you've become too invested in it to look at it clearly. Thats one defining trait of an addict.

    The best players IMO are the ones who do realise that it's just a game but take on a persona and play to that, be it a trader, bounty hunter, pirate or maniacal killer but can still shrug and say 'it's just a game' at the end of their session regardless of how well it went or if they lost it all.
    Depends on your definition of 'best' I think.

    I'm happy with how I phrased it the first time, but if it helps you to see where I'm coming from, I do not take a hull loss lightly. Not my own, not another cmdrs.

    Better?

  7. #67
    Originally Posted by Madrax573 View Post (Source)
    The best players IMO are the ones who do realise that it's just a game but take on a persona and play to that, be it a trader, bounty hunter, pirate or maniacal killer but can still shrug and say 'it's just a game' at the end of their session regardless of how well it went or if they lost it all.
    I suspect that's actually the kind of player Riverside is, with the 'players who think it's just a game' reference just meaning people who don't try to play with any kind of concept of a role or consistency of action.

  8. #68
    Originally Posted by Riverside View Post (Source)
    Depends on your definition of 'best' I think.

    I'm happy with how I phrased it the first time, but if it helps you to see where I'm coming from, I do not take a hull loss lightly. Not my own, not another cmdrs.

    Better?
    Well by best I mean me of course

    I think I get your meaning. With players who are in it JUST for the game rather than being part of the game world?
    CMDR Madrax573

    Praeliator of the dark places!

    Come check out the daft FA-off pilots!

    Discord - https://discord.gg/EN39rcP

    Or my really bad FA-off vids

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpZ...VXvEUGfJyvmXCg

  9. #69
    Originally Posted by Madrax573 View Post (Source)
    Well by best I mean me of course

    I think I get your meaning. With players who are in it JUST for the game rather than being part of the game world?
    Yeah. I think the crux of the 'ganking' issue (ganking = applying unnecessary overkill) is that there is minimal risk of hull loss for them (not a big deal but an issue most PvPers agree with), and that they do not care about the consequences of destroying another Cmdr's ship.

    If I lose a hull, it matters to me. Not the money particularly, but the interruption to whatever I was doing. That seems right to me, I should want to not lose my ship.

    But if I kill another player, I acknowledge that it was an important moment for them, I empathise. It might stop me actually going to the end, or it might not but I still give them a thought, just as I will apologise to a terminally stupid spider in the bath when I am unable to save it & instead have to just kill it.

    It shows a lack of imagination (IMO, obviously), and I have no interest in playing with them. I want the Cmdr that kills me to feel that meeting me was worthy of note, that they accept the consequences with some dignity instead of just suicidewindering that bounty away, that I didn't CLog or even high wake.

    So I think a solution, if there can be one, has to be to somehow make a player consider the repercussions of their action, to make the situation a dilemma for them, just as jumping into a known hotspot is for me as a trader, and for the OP as a pirate.

    They are playing their own way, and I accept that, but there is an upper limit to what I consider reasonable behaviour, and I think it is becoming clear to FDev that they need to put a cap on that too.

  10. #70
    Yeah I hear you. While I do enjoy a good fight in of itself I prefer to have meaning to my combat, especially when I'm targeting other players.

    I'm also happy to kill everyone in a system if I'm able but when I do that I normally announce my intention in chat etc so everyone knows I'm about and shooting things. (this is what I usually did in EVE)

    The upcoming C&P is a start but it probably will need a lot more work to get something really fleshed out and IMO will never please everyone so you will always get someone complaining about it.
    CMDR Madrax573

    Praeliator of the dark places!

    Come check out the daft FA-off pilots!

    Discord - https://discord.gg/EN39rcP

    Or my really bad FA-off vids

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpZ...VXvEUGfJyvmXCg

  11. #71
    Originally Posted by Red Anders View Post (Source)
    Your first paragraph is in the most part decent analysis but then you had to go and spoil it by falling back on the tired old tropes of people 'hiding' in solo and being 'terrified'.

    It may be true for some; for me though (and many others as the forums will attest) it's really much simpler. I don't in general play games to 'meet people'. I play games to play games. Gaming is and always has been primarily some time I can spend away from people, not because I'm socially phobic or inept but just because after a full day at work where I'm dealing with, yes you guessed it, people, I just want to switch off for a bit.

    'Griefers' don't win because I decide to do what I want, they are just as irrelevant to my decisions as (no offence intended) you.




    Yeah they're going to have to address it in some way for sure, I mean I get OP's point completely. I've said before, space pirates are about as classical a sci-fi trope as you'll ever see and totally have a place in the game, so it's going to need some careful balancing.

    One of the biggest problems comes from the sheer scale of the game world we have; traditionally you'd have the 'pirate system' with the requisite scary-looking base and the rum-guzzlers would all hang out there raiding the surrounding systems before retreating back to base for grog and booty. No not that kind. Well Ok, some. Players of a non-piratical bent would fear the pirate system and would only venture inside in strong combat ships, looking to sweep the wretched hive of scum and villainy clean. Etc.

    It worked great for Freelancer with its 20-odd systems but in this game with 20,000 systems or so in the bubble alone, it's a non-starter and we definitely can't have a situation where a player who chooses to play as a pirate finds himself only able to operate in a handful of 'super-anarchy' systems. Partly because it defeats the entire object of playing in a vast galaxy but mainly because they'd never see a legitimate trader bumbling along waiting to be pulled over and robbed to begin with as those players wouldn't go within 10 jumps of any such system in a lightly armed trade ship.

    However surely part of the experience and the appeal of playing as a pirate is being wanted by the law and evading them? Without that, a pirate is basically just a trader who doesn't bother buying stuff.
    I agree with your reason for playing Solo. When I have played open I feel like I'm at a singles bar, some one always trying to communicate with me, asking me to join their clan, hey why are you in an eagle when you're elite, all that.

    Open play, imo, ruins immersion. It reminds you that you're playing a video game, because antic spammers that infest every multiplayer game also infest this one. Immersion is you and the game, not you and the game... and the kids who just decided the hollow boxes are real people so let's shoot them.. hehe it's free, we get free ships constantly!

  12. #72
    Originally Posted by Madrax573 View Post (Source)
    The upcoming C&P is a start but it probably will need a lot more work to get something really fleshed out and IMO will never please everyone so you will always get someone complaining about it.
    I hope & expect the 'karma' system to already be in place, capturing data for analysis but not yet applying punishment automatically. Even if it is never fully implemented it should be capable of providing KPIs that FDev can use for their next round of punishment for cheaters.

    It should hopefully also give them the ability to accurately define what actions they consider to be cheating. With CLogging for example, it's near impossible to define so it's near impossible to punish without a clear pattern of behaviour.

    With stuff like mode switching & suicidewinders it's less clear where it is even considered an outright cheat, an exploit or just acceptable but not officially condoned. Mode switching is kind of built-in, they would have to redesign fundamental bits of the way the game works to eliminate it (if they even want to), so they may just accept that it's inevitable & a quirk. With suicidewinders (both kinds) a clear trend needs to be defined, then published (if you do this set of actions this many times, that's not okay from now on) before any punishment can be applied. Again, if they decide it is undesirable.

    I think it can be made to work, but I am not the one that decides what's okay & what's not. FDev need to do that.


    If we get that kind of system, the Pirate can operate outside the law of the in-game universe, but within the rules of the actual game. So can the blockader, so can the smuggler & other fun occupations. The PvP crowd can still fight each other, but the ganker & the CLogger can expect to build up a catalogue of 'karma points' and face some consequence at last. The really capable ganker may even be able to derive more challenging gameplay from (for example) being restricted to a smaller (non-meta) ship. I do not believe there are any capable CLoggers.

  13. #73
    @OP There is no such thing as "Muder hobos", just add them, gank them again and again and again, they'll unfriend / block you, its brutal but fun.

    New C&P system should address the issue to some extend, it will force gankers to use smaller ships like vulture in wings, Fdev is still not clear about its effects on PvP piracy though.
    I could have gone flying through space forever but pew pew is life.

    CMDR Blasphemous One

  14. #74
    Originally Posted by urth View Post (Source)
    The bounty hunting hobos are attacking while I'm not even wanted claiming I'm a pirate.....
    Well, as per your own admission that is exactly what you are, ergo you're a criminal.

    Piracy is a crime.

    Your wanted status is irrelevant.

    You are a criminal.

    Traders are not there to aid in your gameplay/criminal activities and for your amusement. Traders are earning a living, one ton at a time. You are illegally interfering with their activities. As such, you are to be put down with all due haste, lest you continue your criminal activities.
    CMDR #G#
    Sole-proprietor, RUM 'n RAISIN Ferries, Colonia, Livin' the Dream!


  15. #75
    Originally Posted by EddyRockSteady View Post (Source)
    Well, as per your own admission that is exactly what you are, ergo you're a criminal.

    Piracy is a crime.

    Your wanted status is irrelevant.

    You are a criminal.

    Traders are not there to aid in your gameplay/criminal activities and for your amusement. Traders are earning a living, one ton at a time. You are illegally interfering with their activities. As such, you are to be put down with all due haste, lest you continue your criminal activities.
    I think the point the OP was ultimately trying to make is that, in Open and certainly at a CG, it wouldn't matter what ship he was in, his legal status, or what he was trying to accomplish. He would be attacked and blown up just because he is a hollow square and that is all the reason some Cmdr's need. Quite gamey...unless I want to play Space Quake.

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