Page 7 of 19 FirstFirst ... 3456789101117 ... LastLast
Results 91 to 105 of 272

Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.
Thread: Murder hobos vs CG piracy

  1. #91
    Originally Posted by Genar-Hofoen View Post (Source)
    Y'know all this would probably be made much easier with a Declaration Of Piracy mechanic. It just seems to me - as a coder - that such a mechanic would allow the game client to figure out the context of an interdiction and subsequent attack much better and far easier than the somewhat convoluted programming summersaults that'll have to be done for this karma system.

    But what do I know. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    I think you are right that a piracy flag you be the quick way of sorting things out, as far as piracy is concerned but :

    1) it would only deals with piracy related behaviours
    2) in the long run, having a sub-system to deal with each case (piracy / CLogging / and so on ) is usually more complicated / costlier than a more hollistic aproach (karma).
    3) multiple sub-systems means more points of potential failures => exploits and other shenanigans
    4) karma system have a good track record, and account for all actions, not just what happens in a small subset. Probably harder to "game" too.

    Still. A piracy flag and ability to have pre-recorded demands for the target sent during interdiction and after winning it would help.
    As would Tools supporting piracy in general.
    Theory is when one knows everything but nothing works. Practice is when everything works but nobody knows why. In our lab, theory and practice go hand in hand: nothing works and nobody knows why.

  2. #92
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commanders!

    Hopefully we'll be going in to more depth with karma discussions in the future.

    Hello Commander Ozram!

    Initially, we want to use karma to apply appropriate, in-game consequences for contentious player-to-player interactions, such as ramming, seal clubbing and combat logging. The kinds of things we're talking about here might include: docking rights being revoked at high security systems, increased re-buy costs, additional, highly engineered bounty hunters.

    It's important to note that a karma system is not a panacea, nor will it be instant - it's a way of building up intelligence over time to come to a reasoned decision on player intent.

    Hello Commander Genar-Hofoen!

    Well, we're going to need the somersaulting karma system for a number of activities, so adding in "griefing" seems like a reasonable cost/reward if we can get the numbers in a decent position.

    However, the idea of a declaration of piracy is no less legitimate, as we think it's a cool concept in its own right (plus, it would very likely be possible to feed it into an active karma system anyway)! But to do this well, I think we're going to need NPC comms.
    Some decent answers there Sandro

    I hope your crack team of god-like coders will enjoy their mental (and coding) somersaults - it hurts my brain even thinking about thinking of where to start with such a karma system

  3. #93
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commanders!

    Hopefully we'll be going in to more depth with karma discussions in the future.

    Hello Commander Ozram!

    Initially, we want to use karma to apply appropriate, in-game consequences for contentious player-to-player interactions, such as ramming, seal clubbing and combat logging. The kinds of things we're talking about here might include: docking rights being revoked at high security systems, increased re-buy costs, additional, highly engineered bounty hunters.

    It's important to note that a karma system is not a panacea, nor will it be instant - it's a way of building up intelligence over time to come to a reasoned decision on player intent.

    Hello Commander Genar-Hofoen!

    Well, we're going to need the somersaulting karma system for a number of activities, so adding in "griefing" seems like a reasonable cost/reward if we can get the numbers in a decent position.

    However, the idea of a declaration of piracy is no less legitimate, as we think it's a cool concept in its own right (plus, it would very likely be possible to feed it into an active karma system anyway)! But to do this well, I think we're going to need NPC comms.
    NPC communication would be good, even if it just allows us a basic: Yes, No, buggar-off ability.
    Have you considered the possibility of revoking insurance competely for the "worst of the worst" when it comes to player killers. Players who kill other players repeatedly when they still have "report crimes" activated?

    If I were to use modern motoring insurance as an example. If I were to committ a crime using my car, my insurance company would be well within the contract to laugh me out of the building should I apply for a pay out.
    Elite Dangerous short stories:
    https://voidstarblog.wordpress.com/

  4. #94
    Originally Posted by Muetdhiver View Post (Source)
    I think you are right that a piracy flag you be the quick way of sorting things out, as far as piracy is concerned but :

    1) it would only deals with piracy related behaviours
    2) in the long run, having a sub-system to deal with each case (piracy / CLogging / and so on ) is usually more complicated / costlier than a more hollistic aproach (karma).
    3) multiple sub-systems means more points of potential failures => exploits and other shenanigans
    4) karma system have a good track record, and account for all actions, not just what happens in a small subset. Probably harder to "game" too.

    Still. A piracy flag and ability to have pre-recorded demands for the target sent during interdiction and after winning it would help.
    As would Tools supporting piracy in general.
    Agreed on all points Muetdhiver

    My probably somewhat simplistic thinking is that it would make it easier for the game code to make a distinction between 'legit piracy' and 'murder hobo' behaviour - I've addressed the reasoning behind this in threads from the dark and distant past, but the tl;dr is basically that not only would it enable and enhance 'legit piracy' but that any murder hobo seeking to use such a mechanic in order to hide behind 'legit piracy' in their pursuit of rabid skullduggery would be more easily exposed.

    However, it appears Sandro and Co. are already considering the possibilities involved in a karma system. In the meantime I'll sit on my nice deckchair on the Patience Ferry and read a book or something until these new systems are introduced.

  5. #95
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commanders!

    Hopefully we'll be going in to more depth with karma discussions in the future.

    Hello Commander Ozram!

    Initially, we want to use karma to apply appropriate, in-game consequences for contentious player-to-player interactions, such as ramming, seal clubbing and combat logging. The kinds of things we're talking about here might include: docking rights being revoked at high security systems, increased re-buy costs, additional, highly engineered bounty hunters.

    It's important to note that a karma system is not a panacea, nor will it be instant - it's a way of building up intelligence over time to come to a reasoned decision on player intent.

    Hello Commander Genar-Hofoen!

    Well, we're going to need the somersaulting karma system for a number of activities, so adding in "griefing" seems like a reasonable cost/reward if we can get the numbers in a decent position.

    However, the idea of a declaration of piracy is no less legitimate, as we think it's a cool concept in its own right (plus, it would very likely be possible to feed it into an active karma system anyway)! But to do this well, I think we're going to need NPC comms.
    That sounds really good, and makes sense within the game world.

  6. #96
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commanders!

    Hopefully we'll be going in to more depth with karma discussions in the future.

    Hello Commander Ozram!

    Initially, we want to use karma to apply appropriate, in-game consequences for contentious player-to-player interactions, such as ramming, seal clubbing and combat logging. The kinds of things we're talking about here might include: docking rights being revoked at high security systems, increased re-buy costs, additional, highly engineered bounty hunters

    Hello Sandro,

    since we're talking about highly engineered bounty hunter, don't forget that some players are actively playing this role and would widely welcome more appropriate tools to track Pilot Federation criminals. The "top 5 bounties" appearing in the news feed is good, but we have no way to know if the guy we're looking for is simply offline or if we're just unlucky with instancing when going to his "last reported in" system.

  7. #97
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commander urth!

    If you are not destroying ships, it's our intention that the karma system should not really affect you. Most likely we will want to track damage as well, but in general, if you're reasonably effective at taking out drives and using limpets, only the normal crime rules should trigger (you'll be subject to a bounty).

    When it comes to "griefing", ship destruction, catastrophic damage and significant disparity between ship strength and player stats are the kinds of things that karma is interested in.

    If we end up punishing the behaviour you describe when you pirate, we will be doing it wrong.
    Hi Sandro,

    I'm glad you are thinking about making a distinction between killers and pirates as far as C&P goes, but there is a problem with your assessment of the feasibility of piracy there; destroying drives does not stop a ship dead and it is very difficult to empty cargo out of a ship that is drifting 200-300m/s and effectively collect it.

    Here are some points raised by Jukelo in another thread;

    Originally Posted by Jukelo View Post (Source)
    To elaborate on this:

    * Cargo containers despawn once the player gets further than 8km away, you can't just make cargo spill and come back later for collection.
    * Collector limpets don't work if you go faster than ~18m/s, they destroy the cargo upon collection as I think they miss the cargo hatch and ram it onto your hull.
    * Collector limpets are slow anyway, if the target is drifting at 200+m/s the collector wont have time to collect the cargo pilling out before it's out of range and self destructs.
    * Your speed is limited with your cargo hatch down, you will never keep up with a drifting prey.
    It would be better if pirates had some way to stop a disabled ship so cargo can be stolen without loads of canisters being wasted due to the aforementioned issues, a tether limpet or tractor beam perhaps?

    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commander PeLucheuh!

    As part of the post 2.4 core game play rewview, we may be be looking at criminal roles to see if we can buff them up.
    This is good news

  8. #98
    Originally Posted by Herbrand View Post (Source)
    And your Python has a very sturdy Shield Generator... 6 Reverberating Cascade Torps didn't dent it!
    I don't remember hearing 'shield generator attack' during our encounter... you might have been too close, they need a minimum distance to activate otherwise they don't work.

  9. #99
    Originally Posted by Herbrand View Post (Source)
    And your Python has a very sturdy Shield Generator... 6 Reverberating Cascade Torps didn't dent it!
    Module reinforcement package absorb a part of the damage caused by reverberating cascade effect. I've tested it with a friend and his Corvette: he had a class 1 or 2 MRP, launched 4 torps and his shield gen was down to 7%.

  10. #100
    NPC comms confirmed!

    Asus Sabertooth Z87 | i7-4770K 4.3GHz H100i OC | 16GB Corsair Vengeance PC12800 | GeForce GTX 780Ti 3GB | Realtek ALC1150


  11. #101
    Sandro

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts somewhat.

    There is a real opportunity here for FDev to implement a real Bounty Hunter reward system that significantly pays dividends to CMDRs who go after PvP gankers & griefers in Open play. Stick huge bounties on them and watch the game evolve 10 fold.

    Good luck CMIV

  12. #102
    Originally Posted by AnotherVoice View Post (Source)
    Module reinforcement package absorb a part of the damage caused by reverberating cascade effect. I've tested it with a friend and his Corvette: he had a class 1 or 2 MRP, launched 4 torps and his shield gen was down to 7%.
    I had one of those too (class 4 or 5 I think), plus Prismatics... might be why I could take so many reverb torps.

  13. #103
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commanders!

    Initially, we want to use karma to apply appropriate, in-game consequences for contentious player-to-player interactions, such as ramming, seal clubbing and combat logging. The kinds of things we're talking about here might include: docking rights being revoked at high security systems, increased re-buy costs, additional, highly engineered bounty hunters.

    It's important to note that a karma system is not a panacea, nor will it be instant - it's a way of building up intelligence over time to come to a reasoned decision on player intent.
    Thanks for the message Sandro-

    The seal clubbing reference is good news. BUT will karma consequences be proportional to the crime? i.e. if a victim is flying a sidewinder and gets clubbed, will there be a default karma hit?.. conversely, if the victim is flying a trading cutter and standing to receive a net loss of 70m credits for the pleasure of being seal... will the consequence to the attacker be proportional to the net loss of the victim? As a victim, I'd want the attacker to take such a severe hit that he'd probably wished he hadn't done it... I'm still standing to be 70m worse off, however. (shame the bill can't be covered by the aggressor as an illegal attack if not done in an anarchy / no power held system)

  14. #104
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commander urth!

    If you are not destroying ships, it's our intention that the karma system should not really affect you. Most likely we will want to track damage as well, but in general, if you're reasonably effective at taking out drives and using limpets, only the normal crime rules should trigger (you'll be subject to a bounty).

    When it comes to "griefing", ship destruction, catastrophic damage and significant disparity between ship strength and player stats are the kinds of things that karma is interested in.

    If we end up punishing the behaviour you describe when you pirate, we will be doing it wrong.
    I think statistics alone will struggle to determine motive, with respect to griefing and genuine pirate related gameplay. Would it not be better to deal with ship destructions legal or otherwise in a more robust C&P mechanism. Karma would work well for things like Combat logging though!

  15. #105
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commanders!

    Hopefully we'll be going in to more depth with karma discussions in the future.

    Hello Commander Ozram!

    Initially, we want to use karma to apply appropriate, in-game consequences for contentious player-to-player interactions, such as ramming, seal clubbing and combat logging. The kinds of things we're talking about here might include: docking rights being revoked at high security systems, increased re-buy costs, additional, highly engineered bounty hunters.

    It's important to note that a karma system is not a panacea, nor will it be instant - it's a way of building up intelligence over time to come to a reasoned decision on player intent.

    Hello Commander Genar-Hofoen!

    Well, we're going to need the somersaulting karma system for a number of activities, so adding in "griefing" seems like a reasonable cost/reward if we can get the numbers in a decent position.

    However, the idea of a declaration of piracy is no less legitimate, as we think it's a cool concept in its own right (plus, it would very likely be possible to feed it into an active karma system anyway)! But to do this well, I think we're going to need NPC comms.
    I like the sound of NPC comms, and always thought that it should have been in the game for while now.

Page 7 of 19 FirstFirst ... 3456789101117 ... LastLast