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Thread: Karma v C&P: What player activities belong to which mechanism?

  1. #61
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commander Robert Maynard!



    Now that's the real interesting question. We haven’t decided yet. There are pros and cons for various levels of visibility. For example, you could even change the sensor signature if you wanted folk to know instantly if a Commander had a particularly bad rating. I'm sure we'll be discussing this at length here in the future .
    I think making visible the CMDRs that have reached a very low karma would be enough. And unless you're thinking of adding activities to generate positive karma, which I don't think you do, there's no need for other CMDRs to have their karma public. People will judge even the small amount of negative karma, because that's how people work.

  2. #62
    Originally Posted by Powderpanic View Post (Source)
    While I realise that people have selective reading on this forum.

    MAYBE got back to my original post to which this has derailed from.

    Wouldnt that be great.
    I might be wrong, but what I read between lines in your posts is what I saw. I know you guys are a bit obsessed with gaming everything in game and around it - including forums - but this is not one game follows those trends.

    Anyway, no hard feelings, have a nice one.

  3. #63
    Hi Sandro & cheers for all your informative answers so far (been copy-pasta-ing them to Reddit)! Keep them coming

  4. #64
    Originally Posted by Cmdr Eagleboy View Post (Source)
    Also using overpowered ship to do "pirating" is really not pirating, but more on finding excuse to 'killing' players imho.
    This just gave me a funny idea. Think of how weapon damage is reduced against ship hulls of larger class than the weapon itself.

    Now consider the result if hull/module damage due to starting an interdiction was scaled up by (interdictor hull size/interdictee hull size). Handwavium explanation: the larger a ship is vs its target, the greater shocks its structure experiences as it is violently un-frameshifted. This is seen as the cost of waging wars by navies, but would be a nice deterrent and money sink for not "picking on somebody your own size". Perhaps higher rated interdictor modules would prevent a greater percentage of the final damage.

  5. #65
    Originally Posted by Powderpanic View Post (Source)
    Yes could, should, would, maybe etc.

    My point being, (nicely done ignoring the rest of the post. Thanks..)

    There will be a way around it for a GRIEFER group to kill with impunity. Just look at the station speed limits.. You know its going to happen, it will take months to get patched and then they will think of something else. Circle repeats and all this time people think Karma is C&P
    I'm sure we will be able to find ingenious ways to continue on making ED dangerous If there is one thing gamers are good at its finding loop holes....

  6. #66
    Originally Posted by Cosmos View Post (Source)
    I'm sure we will be able to find ingenious ways to continue on making ED dangerous If there is one thing gamers are good at its finding loop holes....
    .... and reporting any that could be considered to be exploits, of course....

  7. #67
    Originally Posted by Powderpanic View Post (Source)
    How exactly is Karma NOT going to kill Piracy then?
    Because Sandro will be designing around this issue. He has responded to acknowledge it is going to be an issue and the suggestion of a declaration of piracy has come up. There were also ideas for limpet improvements or a new mechanic like a space equivalent of a grappling hook to slow down targets.

    What he said, unequivocally was that piracy was an integral part of ED but also that the concept of piracy in ED did not include murder. So, pirates MUST be able to do their work without the necessity of ship destruction ... the risk might remain, if they're not so good at it, perhaps. But, it should not be a requirement and therefore karma effects from ship destruction should not affect pirates. Whatever needs to be change to make this possible, is the sort of thing he'll be looking at doing.

  8. #68
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commander Arc!

    The current line of thinking is that the player's karma rating (dressed up as some form of Pilot's Federation rating) will be visible to everyone.
    Awesome, thanks for confirming

  9. #69
    I just had what I think is a good idea without processing it too much, just came to me now, so don't be too critical please, I may well have not thought it through!

    So earlier today I was reading a thread and a guy said 'it's ridiculous that we can be King and Admiral in two opposing navies at the same time', and as I read it, I was thinking, 'you know, they're right, it is pretty weird'. Then another poster came along and cleared my brain fart by saying...'woah, wait, we are not members of the federation or empire, or whatever, so we aren't really in their 'Navy', we are members of the pilot's federation, and the Navy rank is just a way for the powers to keep track of how much we've contributed as independents, to their success as a faction, and it's also the PF that gives us nice cheap insurance...' I was like, yeh, that's right, what a revelation, that whole system makes sense now!

    Then I started thinking about crime and punishment, then insurance, then C+P again, then insurance again, and had a potential brainwave. While the poster I referred provided a great explanation of the ranks, it doesn't really cover why the PF is willing to subsidise 70% (or whatever it is, I don't die very often ) of the cost of my ship, when I failed to anticipate the mass of the planet of I was trying to land on, or for that matter any number of destroyed ships under ANY circumstances, and also, why is the insurance free and we pay only a large deductible (effectively)???

    So here's a thing...


    IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT FROM THE PILOT'S FEDERATION!

    Dear Commanders, it cannot have escaped your attention the rapid growth that the noble profession of independent spacefarer has enjoyed these last few years. Unfortunately due to the sheer number of Commanders and deranged space murderers suboptimal pilots being granted licenses, we are no longer able to insure the spacecraft of members of the PF free of charge.

    Starting in 330x, all pilots will be required to pay insurance premiums, payable at x% of the value of your ship, x times per x period. Assuming your account has the funds, they will be automatically deducted and an invoice received to your mailbox when due. This will no longer require a one-off fee for replacement of the ship. Instead your ship will be returned to you as it was including any non-unique cargo (i.e. unique mission cargo, bye bye, as it should be) for a nominal delivery fee. Your insurance will be invalid under the following circumstances...

    * You are wanted globally for criminal destruction (but not damage or theft) of another PF member's assets. (*OOC: This is assuming the rumoured 'global wanted status' variable is implemented in the case of destruction of a clean player's ship)
    * You do not have funds on 'premium day'

    In the case of the latter, your ship will be uninsured until you are able to pay (the invoice you will have received at the time we were unable to deduct your funds). In the case of the former, you immediately forfeit your insurance (in the event of your vessel's destruction, no options to replace your ship or its modules will be offered whatsoever) and remain uninsured until your global status returns to 'clean', by your bounty being claimed or timing out (*OOC did I mention I think the global bounty for destruction of a clean ship out of battle, should be set at the same value of the of the destroyed ship (let's say the Pilot's Federation just want their expenses back on the destroyed ship's claim), including cargo of destroyed vessel, with additional value added for engineering mods consummate with their effectiveness, so this means that the successful bounty hunter gets a good payout AND the griefer has to lose the ship they were flying) AND a new insurance premium is paid.

    Announcement ends, keep flying Pilots and pay your premiums on time!

    synopsis:

    This means that a griefer if destroyed while wanted, will have no insurance options, ship lost. It also ensures that even playing in solo to avoid being bounty hunted during that time, there will still be a high level of risk. Plus, even if they do choose to hide-out in solo during that period, well that's win for us legit players too, as they aren't in open play! So bounty timeouts need to be a decent deterrent, say a real life week for each player ship destroyed, stacking both bounties and weeks with each clean player ship destroyed.

    Unaltered, I am not unaware that this leaves the state that in the case two players legitimately want to have a duel and face the consequences, that if both ships were clean, whoever fired first would be considered a murderer and even if it was an epic battle and they survived by the skin of their teeth, they'd be branded a murderer, have a huge bounty and lose their ship insurance temporarily. The way to mitigate this is to say that if a player attacks another player, and the attacked player turns and fights and does, let's say 10% damage to the attacking ships overall integrity taking into account shields and hull (so lets say a 300mj shield represents 300 integrity, plus another 700 from the hull, if the attacked player returned fire and did 100 damage), at that point, it would be considered a fair duel and only the normal bounty as seen in the current system would apply to the player who fired first and subsequently destroyed a 'clean' ship, no matter how epic the battle, non global wanted level, no loss of insurance. Because nobody should be penalised for defending themselves from wanton attack and there should still be 'some' penalty for the brazen unreasonable attack. So, players can't turn and fight, then complain when they lose, either. Basically, if you try to run and they destroy you, the consequences for the griefer are harsh, whereas if you turn and fight, well, that's your lookout.

    This also means that insurance payments can be anticipated by players and unexpected death isn't the sudden financial handicap it can be sometimes currently. It's win, win, win, isn't it?

    Now, if I've missed some glaringly obvious reason why this won't work or is open to abuse, feel free to let me know, but please be nice, it is a genuine attempt to solve the problem that keeps me and many others out of open, and it ties up a weird mechanic (ship insurance) neatly.

  10. #70
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commander Arc!

    The current line of thinking is that the player's karma rating (dressed up as some form of Pilot's Federation rating) will be visible to everyone.
    I am somewhat indifferent to a Karma or C&P system. If done right it could make the game more interesting.

    When I'm flying in open and run across another commander, the only thing I care about (especially if I am in an unarmed ship) is "is this person likely to try and kill me".

    I'd be happy with a displayed kill count in the past week (or month, whatever) of clean commanders. Or just and indication of clean commanders kills, yellow for 1 kill, red for 5 or more kills..

    Would not have to be a fancy Karma system.

    I run into player X and they have killed 5 players recently, I need to give them a wide berth.

  11. #71
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commander Arc!

    The current line of thinking is that the player's karma rating (dressed up as some form of Pilot's Federation rating) will be visible to everyone.
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commander Robert Maynard!



    Now that's the real interesting question. We haven’t decided yet. There are pros and cons for various levels of visibility. For example, you could even change the sensor signature if you wanted folk to know instantly if a Commander had a particularly bad rating. I'm sure we'll be discussing this at length here in the future .
    It seems to me that making a negative karma rating visible to everyone would simply encourage jerks to be jerks even more. That is because part of the reason they are jerks is so they can show everyone their jerky-ness. They don't post videos of being jerks because they want to hide it.

    So in making the jerk rating visible to them and everyone else, you're just giving them a badge of honor, in their mind, that they will work towards by being even more jerky. Put simply, you'd be encouraging them.

    I would rather that the only way they know they've reached jerk level 'dbag', would be a starport saying 'your rep stinks, go away, you can't dock here'...or whatever the repercussions end up being. No other display/symbols/badges anywhere.

    As for the non-jerky type of player having some knowledge that the person on their radar is a jerk, my suggestion would be to just make it red, as in, hostile. A red hollow square in SC is probably enough to let people know that avoiding that contact is the best course of action. Plus, for those that like hunting jerks, that would give them a target.

  12. #72
    Originally Posted by sovapid View Post (Source)
    I am somewhat indifferent to a Karma or C&P system. If done right it could make the game more interesting.

    When I'm flying in open and run across another commander, the only thing I care about (especially if I am in an unarmed ship) is "is this person likely to try and kill me".

    I'd be happy with a displayed kill count in the past week (or month, whatever) of clean commanders. Or just and indication of clean commanders kills, yellow for 1 kill, red for 5 or more kills..

    Would not have to be a fancy Karma system.

    I run into player X and they have killed 5 players recently, I need to give them a wide berth.
    Giving someone a wide birth is one thing. I get the impression karma status being visible without some sort of scan will offer people the opportunity to abuse it such as instantly attempting to block them, or logging out on sight..

    I don't have a good feeling about this karma system. It sounds far too punitive already and its sad to see Frontier go down the route of sucking the fun out of the game just because a bunch of people cant manage their own emotions over getting beat in a computer game.

    Its worth a recap at this stage. Not only is there solo, pg, ignore, c&p/karma, and a host of other design choices to keep people safe, etc.. the galaxy has 400 billion stars with a geographical area that is practically infinite. Yet somehow people cant move for being 'griefed'. Its quite ridiculous and rather sad to witness the way Frontier reacts to all the whining.

    I wouldnt mind really but the games advertising isn't honest. An epic multiplayer, a cutthroat galaxy set against a backdrop of raw anarchy and power plays, where we are meant to have infinite freedom to blaze our own trail and play it our way.. REally, thats the biggest load of old codswallop..

  13. #73
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    * Murder crimes where there is a massive disparity between player stats/skill/ship power
    Sandro, will negative karma also be applied to people killing clean commanders no matter what kinds of ships they are flying, or only to murders in lopsided engagements?

  14. #74
    Originally Posted by Cosmos View Post (Source)
    Giving someone a wide birth is one thing. I get the impression karma status being visible without some sort of scan will offer people the opportunity to abuse it such as instantly attempting to block them, or logging out on sight..
    Scrubs gonna scrub.

    Not much you can do about someone logging out, other that increasing the log out timer. And I think the ability to block someone to prevent instancing is a terrible game mechanic.

    Just giving my feedback as what would be useful to me.

    With C&P and Karma, I don't really care what happens to the other player. Sure, done right it can be interesting.

    What I am really interested in is tools for me to survive. I care about not seeing the rebuy screen, not losing cargo, and not getting killed and wasting a bunch of time. And what I would really like is incentives for me.

    I've put a good number of SDC on my friends list. Anyone who has pirated me and done it well is also on my friends list (well, if they accepted the request).

  15. #75
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commander Robert Maynard!



    Now that's the real interesting question. We haven’t decided yet. There are pros and cons for various levels of visibility. For example, you could even change the sensor signature if you wanted folk to know instantly if a Commander had a particularly bad rating. I'm sure we'll be discussing this at length here in the future .
    I love the idea of visibility for the Kama system - but shouldn't that be persistent and 'non-spoofable' to other players, so that we can always know when we're facing a 'bad egg'? That said I love the idea of more ways to spoof things and use stealth in supercruise - e.g. illegal modules that obscure ship signature somehow (e.g. ship type 'UNDEFINED - SMALL/MED/LARGE' on the passive scan, or make manifest scanning impossible etc.)

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