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Thread: Karma v C&P: What player activities belong to which mechanism?

  1. #76
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commander Robert Maynard!



    Now that's the real interesting question. We haven’t decided yet. There are pros and cons for various levels of visibility. For example, you could even change the sensor signature if you wanted folk to know instantly if a Commander had a particularly bad rating. I'm sure we'll be discussing this at length here in the future .
    for me the major part is - do i have to FACE that player directly and do the default basic scan, just to see that i am flying several seconds towards someone who is going to kill me ? (and seconds are a long time in pvp)

    also raises the question why can i see the ships and avatars of unscanned commanders in the second chat tab, and the avatars + name in the third? will i need to check a 4th tab in the future to see someones reputation?

  2. #77
    Originally Posted by Cosmos View Post (Source)
    Giving someone a wide birth is one thing. I get the impression karma status being visible without some sort of scan will offer people the opportunity to abuse it such as instantly attempting to block them, or logging out on sight..
    Those seeking to engage in behaviours against other players that would incur a karmic hit already have an early warning beacon, i.e. the hollow marker. Why not offer those that don't want to be subject to the attentions of a poor karma player a heads up too?

  3. #78
    Originally Posted by Robert Maynard View Post (Source)
    Those seeking to engage in behaviours against other players that would incur a karmic hit already have an early warning beacon, i.e. the hollow marker. Why not offer those that don't want to be subject to the attentions of a poor karma player a heads up too?
    Agree 100%

  4. #79
    Originally Posted by Robert Maynard View Post (Source)
    Those seeking to engage in behaviours against other players that would incur a karmic hit already have an early warning beacon, i.e. the hollow marker. Why not offer those that don't want to be subject to the attentions of a poor karma player a heads up too?
    To be quite frank with you I really cant fathom why people are so bad the game needs to be continuously idiot proofed. Outside arranged duels to the death I can count on one hand the number of times anyone has destroyed my ship since the game began three years ago.

    As I said before, theres solo, pg, station defenses, the cops, and the new cp/karma system.. Now you want a big glowing dot on a player who has 'bad' karma? What about an sms alert too? This is just ridiculous and it would appear nothing will satisfy your own personal wishes to sanitize the game. Do you even play in Open?

    With even a half decent ship its simple to evade anyone.. For example, I've got an Asp that does well over 500 m/s. There are ample tools and ways to avoid getting blown up. Are people really this bad at ED? Really..

    Theres loads of help out there too for people who want to improve..


  5. #80
    Originally Posted by Cosmos View Post (Source)
    To be quite frank with you I really cant fathom why people are so bad the game needs to be continuously idiot proofed. Outside arranged duels to the death I can count on one hand the number of times anyone has destroyed my ship since the game began three years ago.

    As I said before, theres solo, pg, station defenses, the cops, and the new cp/karma system.. Now you want a big glowing dot on a player who has 'bad' karma? What about an sms alert too? This is just ridiculous and it would appear nothing will satisfy your own personal wishes to sanitize the game. Do you even play in Open?

    With even a half decent ship its simple to evade anyone.. For example, I've got an Asp that does well over 500 m/s. There are ample tools and ways to avoid getting blown up. Are people really this bad at ED? Really..
    You and I both know which stations the ramming griefers tend to hang around and how they operate, know noob killers hang around the starter systems, know to expect anti-social types near CG's or engineers or busy stations and know how to escape from a ganking wing. We also both know how to fly the ships.

    New players don't know any of that though.



    FDEV's official advice on dealing with griefing :
    https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...efing-(part-2)

  6. #81
    Originally Posted by Abil Midena View Post (Source)
    It seems to me that making a negative karma rating visible to everyone would simply encourage jerks to be jerks even more. That is because part of the reason they are jerks is so they can show everyone their jerky-ness. They don't post videos of being jerks because they want to hide it.

    So in making the jerk rating visible to them and everyone else, you're just giving them a badge of honor, in their mind, that they will work towards by being even more jerky. Put simply, you'd be encouraging them.

    I would rather that the only way they know they've reached jerk level 'dbag', would be a starport saying 'your rep stinks, go away, you can't dock here'...or whatever the repercussions end up being. No other display/symbols/badges anywhere.
    The flip side to this is that having karma rating visible allows peaceful players to identify the hard criminals, which enables law abiding commanders to better defend themselves by making more informed decisions. Karma ratings need to be out in the open in my opinion, it makes them a more effective defense mechanism. Hiding the karma ratings is only serving to protect the commanders doing the murdering, and C&P+K is supposed to be about protecting the innocents, not enabling the guilty.

  7. #82
    Originally Posted by Cosmos View Post (Source)
    Now you want a big glowing dot on a player who has 'bad' karma? What about an sms alert too? This is just ridiculous and it would appear nothing will satisfy your own personal wishes to sanitize the game. Do you even play in Open?
    I trade, bounty hunt, go to engineers in open and would be in favor of seeing if the other hollow dot is a "bad guy". Otherwise, to me, the Karma system is pointless.

    Right now if I see a hollow dot, I always assume it to be hostile. Knowing if it is a bad guy or not gives me a tool to survive. I don't really care what Karma hit the other guy gets if he does kill me.

  8. #83
    Originally Posted by nrage View Post (Source)
    Because Sandro will be designing around this issue. He has responded to acknowledge it is going to be an issue and the suggestion of a declaration of piracy has come up. There were also ideas for limpet improvements or a new mechanic like a space equivalent of a grappling hook to slow down targets.

    What he said, unequivocally was that piracy was an integral part of ED but also that the concept of piracy in ED did not include murder. So, pirates MUST be able to do their work without the necessity of ship destruction ... the risk might remain, if they're not so good at it, perhaps. But, it should not be a requirement and therefore karma effects from ship destruction should not affect pirates. Whatever needs to be change to make this possible, is the sort of thing he'll be looking at doing.
    this because real pirates are not pyschopathic. criminal yes; but they are business people. they are in it for making money. of course the business is demanding goods with menaces but a real pirate is judging risk of damage outweighing potential profit after expenses. you start to make it unprofitable by fighting back too hard, they will wake out. they dont need expensive repairs, but then if the cargo is valuable enough they will risk more damage - but they really dont want to kill because that adds incentive to bounty hunters and sys sec more than they already get. it makes making a living even harder, raised risk of damage and not being able to dock to sell the stolen goods on the black market. ideally they will show up with such an overwhelming force that after succeeding to interdict a trader, the trader realises they wont live long if they fight (or thinks so) and drops the demanded amount. but they also (the smart ones) realise that wiping out all trade means no victims. meaning no profit. so they are also like primitive hunters who only take enough to get by without destroying the resource.

    this is how npc pirates are operating now - i get interdicted and submit. as yet none have been smart enough to do it in a ship i cannot fight back in, but the first anaconda to do so WILL force some cargo from me if i have it, since i also will take too much damage by fighting to survive in some of my ships and if they do it in the right place where sys sec is slow to arrive, they are golden and i will make the judgement they win. this time. if player pirates cannot do that even smarter and make a living with some occasional fun combat - that doesnt result in death every time for someone - then maybe they are npcs....
    Nan iChîr Gelair

  9. #84
    Originally Posted by Abil Midena View Post (Source)
    It seems to me that making a negative karma rating visible to everyone would simply encourage jerks to be jerks even more. That is because part of the reason they are jerks is so they can show everyone their jerky-ness. They don't post videos of being jerks because they want to hide it.

    So in making the jerk rating visible to them and everyone else, you're just giving them a badge of honor, in their mind, that they will work towards by being even more jerky. Put simply, you'd be encouraging them.

    I would rather that the only way they know they've reached jerk level 'dbag', would be a starport saying 'your rep stinks, go away, you can't dock here'...or whatever the repercussions end up being. No other display/symbols/badges anywhere.

    As for the non-jerky type of player having some knowledge that the person on their radar is a jerk, my suggestion would be to just make it red, as in, hostile. A red hollow square in SC is probably enough to let people know that avoiding that contact is the best course of action. Plus, for those that like hunting jerks, that would give them a target.
    if its visible and if someone combat logs and that is allowed due to the jerk being the one reporting it because they couldnt be a jerk because the victim logged out, i think it would be hard do be a jerk. you cant show your ganking for the lulz if the video feed just shows commanders logging out or waking rather than letting jerkalot get close enough to gank. perhaps such vids and posts on reddit will turn into whining about how 'they all combat log when i interdict and FD dont do nothin'.

    i like the red hoow idea - my own would be do that but also have a flashing warning in info panel that doesnt fade saying Warning: Pilot Federation revoked pilot in system. it doesnt tell you who - just there is a ganker jerk around. the red on the radar will tell you location, unless they are running silent. would also drop random npc wings of corvettes with vipers/vultures on them (npc bounty hunters or hired assassins) at random intervals between 5 and 10 minutes. if their karma is really bad and they hang around in any system more than 15 minutes have a small naval task force including a capital ship and 20 or 30 fighters interdict/drop in beside them and say hello.

    none of this will help if the ganker just resets or deletes their commander and begins from scratch - unless FD make karma carry over based on the product key the jerk registered so resetting wont reset their karma - just start them in a sidey and 1000 cr - and still keep their previous karma. then again im sure some will have the money to burn and buy a new copy to start all over. so even that wont stop it entirely.
    Nan iChîr Gelair

  10. #85
    Originally Posted by yodajedifishmaster View Post (Source)
    if its visible and if someone combat logs and that is allowed due to the jerk being the one reporting it because they couldnt be a jerk because the victim logged out, i think it would be hard do be a jerk. you cant show your ganking for the lulz if the video feed just shows commanders logging out or waking rather than letting jerkalot get close enough to gank. perhaps such vids and posts on reddit will turn into whining about how 'they all combat log when i interdict and FD dont do nothin'.

    i like the red hoow idea - my own would be do that but also have a flashing warning in info panel that doesnt fade saying Warning: Pilot Federation revoked pilot in system. it doesnt tell you who - just there is a ganker jerk around. the red on the radar will tell you location, unless they are running silent. would also drop random npc wings of corvettes with vipers/vultures on them (npc bounty hunters or hired assassins) at random intervals between 5 and 10 minutes. if their karma is really bad and they hang around in any system more than 15 minutes have a small naval task force including a capital ship and 20 or 30 fighters interdict/drop in beside them and say hello.

    none of this will help if the ganker just resets or deletes their commander and begins from scratch - unless FD make karma carry over based on the product key the jerk registered so resetting wont reset their karma - just start them in a sidey and 1000 cr - and still keep their previous karma. then again im sure some will have the money to burn and buy a new copy to start all over. so even that wont stop it entirely.
    I definitely think NPC taskforces (but not capital ships, more like an anaconda and two vultures) should hunt flagrant repeat offenders when bounties get huge, etc. It would make life more difficult for them, give them numbers to face more often instead of lone bounty hunters and give players a chance to catch them in the middle of NPC battles and get some bounty and satisfaction.

  11. #86
    Originally Posted by Stigbob View Post (Source)
    You and I both know which stations the ramming griefers tend to hang around and how they operate, know noob killers hang around the starter systems, know to expect anti-social types near CG's or engineers or busy stations and know how to escape from a ganking wing. We also both know how to fly the ships.

    New players don't know any of that though.
    Its a fair point and I'd have no objections if the karma system resulted in noobs not being pounced on yet I get the distinct impression things wont stop there. Instead the message I get is that Frontier have it in for anyone who doesnt want to sing kumbaya around the campfire.

    This community has always been overly stuffy and the forums generally reflect that. I mean how can anyone not watch tony curtis' videos and find them amusing? Comedy gold.


  12. #87
    Originally Posted by Aashenfox View Post (Source)
    I definitely think NPC taskforces (but not capital ships, more like an anaconda and two vultures) should hunt flagrant repeat offenders when bounties get huge, etc. It would make life more difficult for them, give them numbers to face more often instead of lone bounty hunters and give players a chance to catch them in the middle of NPC battles and get some bounty and satisfaction.
    i like your expansion of the idea, do you suggest a special CZ that appears when a jerk has had some ships drop in on them so players know to go after them? USS becomes Pilot Fed CZ (EXTREMELY HAZARDOUS LEVEL 10). i sitll think if they are in a wing with friends or engineered corvette its going to take more than some npc anaconda and a couple of fighters to tie them up. whatever drops in should start by making sure its trying to stop the jerk from waking by targetting the FSD then thrusters. and prefrably with engineered weapons to take down shields no matter how strongly engineered very fast. and those bugged multicannon plasma accelerators would be good too. but if they manage to survive it shouldnt add any more negative karma lol.
    Nan iChîr Gelair

  13. #88
    Originally Posted by ForeverN00b View Post (Source)
    You want MORE RNG in this game? You're probably the only one.

    Punishment shouldn't hinge on RNG, just sayin'
    Yep, would add a bit more spice to things! Weighted RNG based on how "bad" you've been but I would reserve this for out and out cheating (see OP). Not for activity relating to ship destructions, I would tighten up C&P with in game consequences for those.

  14. #89
    Originally Posted by Aashenfox View Post (Source)
    I just had what I think is a good idea without processing it too much, just came to me now, so don't be too critical please, I may well have not thought it through!

    ...

    synopsis:

    This means that a griefer if destroyed while wanted, will have no insurance options, ship lost. It also ensures that even playing in solo to avoid being bounty hunted during that time, there will still be a high level of risk. Plus, even if they do choose to hide-out in solo during that period, well that's win for us legit players too, as they aren't in open play! So bounty timeouts need to be a decent deterrent, say a real life week for each player ship destroyed, stacking both bounties and weeks with each clean player ship destroyed.

    Unaltered, I am not unaware that this leaves the state that in the case two players legitimately want to have a duel and face the consequences, that if both ships were clean, whoever fired first would be considered a murderer and even if it was an epic battle and they survived by the skin of their teeth, they'd be branded a murderer, have a huge bounty and lose their ship insurance temporarily. The way to mitigate this is to say that if a player attacks another player, and the attacked player turns and fights and does, let's say 10% damage to the attacking ships overall integrity taking into account shields and hull (so lets say a 300mj shield represents 300 integrity, plus another 700 from the hull, if the attacked player returned fire and did 100 damage), at that point, it would be considered a fair duel and only the normal bounty as seen in the current system would apply to the player who fired first and subsequently destroyed a 'clean' ship, no matter how epic the battle, non global wanted level, no loss of insurance. Because nobody should be penalised for defending themselves from wanton attack and there should still be 'some' penalty for the brazen unreasonable attack. So, players can't turn and fight, then complain when they lose, either. Basically, if you try to run and they destroy you, the consequences for the griefer are harsh, whereas if you turn and fight, well, that's your lookout.

    This also means that insurance payments can be anticipated by players and unexpected death isn't the sudden financial handicap it can be sometimes currently. It's win, win, win, isn't it?

    Now, if I've missed some glaringly obvious reason why this won't work or is open to abuse, feel free to let me know, but please be nice, it is a genuine attempt to solve the problem that keeps me and many others out of open, and it ties up a weird mechanic (ship insurance) neatly.
    Sorry snipped down the post a bit for the reply. I like the idea on insurance relating to more factors other than just a percentage of rebuy. Especially now that the Pilots Fed. are getting some teeth. I like the idea of insurance being calculated as follows:

    I = Rebuy cost

    As the Pilots Federation insure commanders, then why not base the calculation on a few factors, not just ship cost (Sc) multiplied by a factor 0.05, as currently is? Pilots Federation reputation factor (Rf), claim rate (Cr) minus any discounts (d) could all be utilised in the calculation. These basic factors would reward piloting ability and discourage “negative” behaviour.


    Basic proposed Insurance equation:
    option1:
    I = (Sc – (Sc * d)) * (Rf + Cr)
    option2:
    I = (Sc * (Rf + Cr)) – (Sc * d)

    More details on this thread https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...c)-wheel/page2

  15. #90
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commanders!

    Hopefully, we can get some more detailed discussions going on this, but for now:

    The initial use of a karma system, which tracks and analyses player activities, will be to provide additional in-game consequences for the following actions:

    • Combat logging, where players exit the game ungracefully
    • Ramming at starports
    • Murder crimes where there is a massive disparity between player stats/skill/ship power

    The consequences would scale over time (as a karma system tracks trends over time rather than spot instances).
    Yes thanks for the responses, certainly looking forward to more details as and when they appear.

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