Page 1 of 8 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 113

Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.
Thread: Karma v C&P: What player activities belong to which mechanism?

  1. #1

    Karma v C&P: What player activities belong to which mechanism?

    With a new "Karma" and "Crime & Punishment" system to come in future updates, is it about time to have a discussion or clarity FDev about what player actions are constitute karma or C&P?

    The Karma system as I understand it will use data analysis over long time periods to determine and sanction, negative playing styles and cheats etc.

    Crime & Punishment deals with in an in-game context illegal (breaking the law in governed space) and illegitimate ("criminal" acts in anarchy space). This is covered by sanctions e.g. bounties/fines/rep. loss/insurance etc. by factions/powers and from 2.4 the Pilots Federation.

    What player action should be dealt with by which mechanism? What are the potential sanctions for the different mechanisms and how they should be administered?

    Personally I don't see how a karma system can deal with determining the motives for ship destructions, so this should be left to a more robust C&P system. However, Karma could be useful in dealing with issues like Combat logging, that actions are removed from an in-game context. The list below is how I would separate out different player actions regarding the two mechanisms.

    Karma
    Combat Logging
    Trolling?
    Improper use of "cmdr block" option. Where block is used for a tactical advantage, not for blocking trolls etc.

    C&P
    Illegal ship destructions (including griefing and ganking as it is next to impossible to determine motive by statistics)
    Ramming (just another form of illegal ship destruction)
    all crimes theft/illegal salvage, smuggling, speeding etc.

  2. #2
    When it comes to "griefing", ship destruction, catastrophic damage and significant disparity between ship strength and player stats are the kinds of things that karma is interested in.
    https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...=1#post5684326

    Seal clubbing, probably explorer ganking are karma system matters

  3. #3
    Given that Sandro recently started talking about a potential karma system in a thread titled "Deliberate Ramming" then one might expect that ramming would also cause karmic consequences.

    Ship destruction (of clean ships) is also on the list.

    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commander nrage!

    Discerning naughty from undesirable would really be such a system's prime function.

    so, to spitball a little, here are some potential examples:

    * Attacking a wanted ship, no matter how overpowered you were compared to it, would be fine
    * Attacking a clean ship when massively overpowered would get minor bad karma
    * Repeatedly attacking clean ships that you massively overpowered would get you major bad karma
    * Stealing cargo from a clean ship would be fine.
    * Being involved in an occasional starport collision would gain you minor bad karma
    * Being repeatedly involved in starport collisions over time would get you major bad karma
    * Occasionally disconnecting ungracefully in danger would be fine
    * Repeatedly disconnecting ungracefully in danger over time would get you major bad karma
    * Attacking starports as crew would get you major bad karma

    This sort of thing.

    Such a system might not be perfectly right in very instance, but punitive measures would increase based on trends over time, which in the end become fairly accurate indicators of intent.

    In general, we want to minimise out of game intervention. However, that does not mean that punitive measures would be toothless. We could make life *very* challenging, in ways we currently have not employed, for repeat offenders.

    But please remember, as of this moment, this is just discussion, and although we have very positive vibes, there's currently no ETA or guarantee for such a system's arrival.

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by Robert Maynard View Post (Source)
    Given that Sandro recently started talking about a potential karma system in a thread titled "Deliberate Ramming" then one might expect that ramming would also cause karmic consequences.

    Ship destruction (of clean ships) is also on the list.
    Could you link the thread please ? i can't find it in his latest post

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by AnotherVoice View Post (Source)
    Could you link the thread please ? i can't find it in his latest post
    Recently in this thread: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...berate-Ramming

    Today in these threads: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...s-vs-CG-piracy and https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...-vs-PvP-Piracy

  6. #6

  7. #7

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Robert Maynard View Post (Source)
    Given that Sandro recently started talking about a potential karma system in a thread titled "Deliberate Ramming" then one might expect that ramming would also cause karmic consequences.

    Ship destruction (of clean ships) is also on the list.
    Yeah the list is useful and something to go on! Not knowing how are what the sanctions for "bad karma" is a major piece of the jigsaw still missing I suppose. My basic concern and hence the thread is what should be dealt with by what system and what players thought about it.

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by CMDR_Elver View Post (Source)
    Yeah the list is useful and something to go on! Not knowing how are what the sanctions for "bad karma" is a major piece of the jigsaw still missing I suppose. My basic concern and hence the thread is what should be dealt with by what system and what players thought about it.
    It would seem that the potential karma system is designed to discourage particular player / player interactions that Frontier consider to be detrimental to the health of the game.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Robert Maynard View Post (Source)
    It would seem that the potential karma system is designed to discourage particular player / player interactions that Frontier consider to be detrimental to the health of the game.
    That exactly.

    Rule of thumbs : if you behave like a reproductive organ in a non anarchy system, it's probably going to be included in the karma system.

  11. #11
    It's amazing how much people get angsty about this, when its focus is on reducing instances of being a d&!k.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by Robert Maynard View Post (Source)
    It would seem that the potential karma system is designed to discourage particular player / player interactions that Frontier consider to be detrimental to the health of the game.
    Originally Posted by Muetdhiver View Post (Source)
    That exactly.

    Rule of thumbs : if you behave like a reproductive organ in a non anarchy system, it's probably going to be included in the karma system.
    Yeah would go along with that, just I think it isn't cut and dried what the Karma system is trying to deter. For example a pirate player would probably more than likely look to attack weaker ships over time this might result in bad karma, intended for seal clubbers. Just think as a general rule "ship destructions" would be better placed in C&P.

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by Robert Maynard View Post (Source)
    It would seem that the potential karma system is designed to discourage particular player / player interactions that Frontier consider to be detrimental to the health of the game.
    We have our disagreements but in this case I'm gonna say "very well put", provided people remember that "detrimental" applies to multiple aspects of the game that aren't necessarily just random murder.

    Bounty based crime handling is technically for breaking laws in-game, and aren't necessarily mutually inclusive or exclusive of karma.

  14. #14
    The other side to the Karma v C&P debate is how and what sanctions there are for "bad karma" or C&P.

    To my mind in-game shenanigans should have in-game sanctions or in other words C&P. Therefore, reputation loss, fines, bounties, docking privileges & increased rebuy etc.

    Karma implies death & rebirth! Although FDev have not mentioned this at all in above threads I would like to throw this out there. Having "bad karma" increases your likelihood of character death if your ship is destroyed. So 10% bad karma = 10% chance of dying when your ship is destroyed, so loosing all credits, ships, ranks etc., back to the sidewinder. Perhaps as you "bad karma" increases, NPC encounters get tougher increasing your chances of death. If get 100% bad karma then it's instance death, no ship destruction necessary.

    Obviously it is a bit draconian but isn't that the point to put a lid on detrimental behaviour. Admittedly, I thought of this in the context of Combat logging and not for things like seal clubbing/griefing (which I put in C&P) but could work for that if the karma system was set up for those sorts of detrimental behaviour. Just a thought!

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by CMDR_Elver View Post (Source)
    To my mind in-game shenanigans should have in-game sanctions or in other words C&P. Therefore, reputation loss, fines, bounties, docking privileges & increased rebuy etc.

    Karma implies death & rebirth! Although FDev have not mentioned this at all in above threads I would like to throw this out there. Having "bad karma" increases your likelihood of character death if your ship is destroyed. So 10% bad karma = 10% chance of dying when your ship is destroyed, so loosing all credits, ships, ranks etc., back to the sidewinder. Perhaps as you "bad karma" increases, NPC encounters get tougher increasing your chances of death. If get 100% bad karma then it's instance death, no ship destruction necessary.

    Obviously it is a bit draconian but isn't that the point to put a lid on detrimental behaviour. Admittedly, I thought of this in the context of Combat logging and not for things like seal clubbing/griefing (which I put in C&P) but could work for that if the karma system was set up for those sorts of detrimental behaviour. Just a thought!
    I love it when people think up ridiculous forms of karma punishment in the belief they'd be hurting gankers, not realising that the gankers would most likely be less affected than CLers and other exploiters.

    I'm gonna have tears of laughter if we ever implement this and start seeing loads of threads complaining about the amount of time people have lost after CLing and not realising their ship can be permanently destroyed after

Page 1 of 8 12345 ... LastLast