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Thread: Karma v C&P: What player activities belong to which mechanism?

  1. #16
    Originally Posted by CMDR_Elver View Post (Source)
    Obviously it is a bit draconian but isn't that the point to put a lid on detrimental behaviour. Admittedly, I thought of this in the context of Combat logging and not for things like seal clubbing/griefing (which I put in C&P) but could work for that if the karma system was set up for those sorts of detrimental behaviour. Just a thought!
    Sandro has been quite clear - if Frontier could determine definitively that a player had indeed Combat Logged then they would be able to mete out consequences for those players - however they can't.

    .... which is why draconian measures are very unlikely to be imposed upon players who might only have a poor connection (that they can do absolutely nothing about).

  2. #17
    Originally Posted by StiTch View Post (Source)
    I love it when people think up ridiculous forms of karma punishment in the belief they'd be hurting gankers, not realising that the gankers would most likely be less affected than CLers and other exploiters.

    I'm gonna have tears of laughter if we ever implement this and start seeing loads of threads complaining about the amount of time people have lost after CLing and not realising their ship can be permanently destroyed after
    To be fair I wouldn't include gankers in "karma", I'd keep them in C&P. Was thinking more for CLoggers, but it would be interesting!

  3. #18
    Originally Posted by CMDR_Elver View Post (Source)
    To be fair I wouldn't include gankers in "karma", I'd keep them in C&P. Was thinking more for CLoggers, but it would be interesting!
    It seems that gankers (or those that use highly capable ships against weaker, clean, players anyway) are on Sandro's "to do list" for the karma system....

  4. #19
    Originally Posted by CMDR_Elver View Post (Source)
    To be fair I wouldn't include gankers in "karma", I'd keep them in C&P. Was thinking more for CLoggers, but it would be interesting!
    Not including gankers in karma?

    My apologies, this is just something entirely new to me and indeed the forum. The karma system was half conceived to counter the fear of murder in Open, so you'll have to forgive my surprise that there's mention of it not included ;P

  5. #20
    Originally Posted by Robert Maynard View Post (Source)
    Sandro has been quite clear - if Frontier could determine definitively that a player had indeed Combat Logged then they would be able to mete out consequences for those players - however they can't.

    .... which is why draconian measures are very unlikely to be imposed upon players who might only have a poor connection (that they can do absolutely nothing about).
    Yeah but isn't karma about looking at trends over time? Clogging is something that stats could deal with. If a genuine bad connection then the player could get some confirmation from the ISP etc. This is about probability of Combat logging over time so metrics could be developed. Also could have a report Combat logging button in comms panel to highlight particularly dubious cases. Just saying if combat logging could be on balance determined, would the sanction fit the crime?

    Anyway got to dash.

  6. #21
    Originally Posted by Robert Maynard View Post (Source)
    It seems that gankers (or those that use highly capable ships against weaker, clean, players anyway) are on Sandro's "to do list" for the karma system....
    Originally Posted by StiTch View Post (Source)
    Not including gankers in karma?

    My apologies, this is just something entirely new to me and indeed the forum. The karma system was half conceived to counter the fear of murder in Open, so you'll have to forgive my surprise that there's mention of it not included ;P
    Yes I know what "karma" was conceived to be. I have been following & contributing the C&P debate for a while and believe C&P can be improved to counter ganking/griefing/seal clubbing etc. But combat logging and general cheats could be in the "karma" realm. I just think the ideas surrounding it are a bit muddled, hence starting the OP. I don't have the confidence in Fdev at the moment to put in place a logical system so want to debate the ideas around karma C&P.

  7. #22
    Originally Posted by CMDR_Elver View Post (Source)
    But combat logging and general cheats could be in the "karma" realm.
    It 100% should be.

    Some people are raising question marks over the technicalities, but I am very confident it's rather quite doable. Not on a first strike basis - perhaps over the course of a few disconnects and beyond.

    But the karma system is intended, as described quite well by Rob above, to counteract "antisocial behaviour". FD have declared task killing/"ungraceful" quitting as antisocial, and so it would cause no end of somewhat rightful havoc if suddenly only a few aspects of the antisocial behaviour were being targeted.

  8. Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread. #23
    Lead Designer- Elite: Dangerous Frontier Employee
    Hello Commanders!

    Hopefully, we can get some more detailed discussions going on this, but for now:

    The initial use of a karma system, which tracks and analyses player activities, will be to provide additional in-game consequences for the following actions:

    • Combat logging, where players exit the game ungracefully
    • Ramming at starports
    • Murder crimes where there is a massive disparity between player stats/skill/ship power

    The consequences would scale over time (as a karma system tracks trends over time rather than spot instances).

  9. #24
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commanders!

    Hopefully, we can get some more detailed discussions going on this, but for now:

    The initial use of a karma system, which tracks and analyses player activities, will be to provide additional in-game consequences for the following actions:

    • Combat logging, where players exit the game ungracefully
    • Ramming at starports
    • Murder crimes where there is a massive disparity between player stats/skill/ship power

    The consequences would scale over time (as a karma system tracks trends over time rather than spot instances).
    All I can say - go karma system go!

  10. #25
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commanders!

    Hopefully, we can get some more detailed discussions going on this, but for now:

    The initial use of a karma system, which tracks and analyses player activities, will be to provide additional in-game consequences for the following actions:

    • Combat logging, where players exit the game ungracefully
    • Ramming at starports
    • Murder crimes where there is a massive disparity between player stats/skill/ship power

    The consequences would scale over time (as a karma system tracks trends over time rather than spot instances).
    Thanks, Sandro. A nice, concise list.

  11. #26
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commanders!

    Hopefully, we can get some more detailed discussions going on this, but for now:

    The initial use of a karma system, which tracks and analyses player activities, will be to provide additional in-game consequences for the following actions:

    • Combat logging, where players exit the game ungracefully
    • Ramming at starports
    • Murder crimes where there is a massive disparity between player stats/skill/ship power

    The consequences would scale over time (as a karma system tracks trends over time rather than spot instances).
    Thankyou for clarification

  12. #27
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commanders!

    Hopefully, we can get some more detailed discussions going on this, but for now:

    The initial use of a karma system, which tracks and analyses player activities, will be to provide additional in-game consequences for the following actions:

    • Combat logging, where players exit the game ungracefully
    • Ramming at starports
    • Murder crimes where there is a massive disparity between player stats/skill/ship power

    The consequences would scale over time (as a karma system tracks trends over time rather than spot instances).
    Will active abuse of game mechanics, such as combat logging, be in the same boat as normal but "bad" behaviour such as killing and ramming and whatnot?

    I mean, it makes sense to have different mechanics for those. Combat logging and the like is very, very bad and should be dealt with on meta level, ramming and killing is just illegal and should be dealt with ingame (but not on the current laughable level). At least i think so.

  13. #28
    Forgive me if you have already answered this, but will we be actually be able to "see" other folks Karma level (wearing it as a badge of honour/shame etc, so folks can easily identify folks "attitude", for lack of a better word)? Or is it only visible to each individual?

  14. #29
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commanders!

    Hopefully, we can get some more detailed discussions going on this, but for now:

    The initial use of a karma system, which tracks and analyses player activities, will be to provide additional in-game consequences for the following actions:

    • Combat logging, where players exit the game ungracefully
    • Ramming at starports
    • Murder crimes where there is a massive disparity between player stats/skill/ship power

    The consequences would scale over time (as a karma system tracks trends over time rather than spot instances).
    Logging out of combat via the menu should have a karma hit too.. It may be within the rules, but that doesn't make it a desirable action (like two of the three activities you listed).

  15. #30
    Originally Posted by CMDR_Elver View Post (Source)
    The other side to the Karma v C&P debate is how and what sanctions there are for "bad karma" or C&P.

    To my mind in-game shenanigans should have in-game sanctions or in other words C&P. Therefore, reputation loss, fines, bounties, docking privileges & increased rebuy etc.

    Karma implies death & rebirth! Although FDev have not mentioned this at all in above threads I would like to throw this out there. Having "bad karma" increases your likelihood of character death if your ship is destroyed. So 10% bad karma = 10% chance of dying when your ship is destroyed, so loosing all credits, ships, ranks etc., back to the sidewinder. Perhaps as you "bad karma" increases, NPC encounters get tougher increasing your chances of death. If get 100% bad karma then it's instance death, no ship destruction necessary.

    Obviously it is a bit draconian but isn't that the point to put a lid on detrimental behaviour. Admittedly, I thought of this in the context of Combat logging and not for things like seal clubbing/griefing (which I put in C&P) but could work for that if the karma system was set up for those sorts of detrimental behaviour. Just a thought!
    You want MORE RNG in this game? You're probably the only one.

    Punishment shouldn't hinge on RNG, just sayin'

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