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Thread: Lead Designers advice on dealing with griefing (part 2)

  1. #361
    Originally Posted by Mohrgan View Post (Source)
    Live and let live, and all of this angst just would go away.
    Blocking people under the current system isn't an example of live and let live. It's diametrically opposed to that.

    Originally Posted by CMDR Zadian Lichtfrost View Post (Source)
    Out of game problems can only be solved by out of game mechanisms.
    The problem with the block feature in it's current incarnation is that it's an out-of-game/metagame feature frequently being used in an attempt to solve in-game problems.

    Originally Posted by Han_Zen View Post (Source)
    Unless PvP groups starts to use it during wing fights, to actively mess with instancing, the block list is a non issue.
    That's pretty much how people started to realize the feature was even working in the first place.

    Originally Posted by Rafe Zetter View Post (Source)
    If those types in ED want the ability to block YOU "coz reasons" - trust me, they are DOING YOU A FAVOR.
    Might be the case if they weren't taking everyone in their instance with them.

  2. #362
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    Blocking people under the current system isn't an example of live and let live. It's diametrically opposed to that.



    The problem with the block feature in it's current incarnation is that it's an out-of-game/metagame feature frequently being used in an attempt to solve in-game problems.



    That's pretty much how people started to realize the feature was even working in the first place.



    Might be the case if they weren't taking everyone in their instance with them.
    Ranting conjecture in it's entirety.
    Elite Commander Mohrgan
    F.S.S. Wolfshead MO-04F
    Separating Pirates and Ships since 3300

  3. #363
    Originally Posted by Mohrgan View Post (Source)
    Ranting conjecture in it's entirety.
    Not sure how you could call any of it conjecture when the functionality is demonstrable and the rest has a historical record behind it.

  4. #364
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    Not sure how you could call any of it conjecture when the functionality is demonstrable and the rest has a historical record behind it.
    Convincing yourself doesn't count.
    Elite Commander Mohrgan
    F.S.S. Wolfshead MO-04F
    Separating Pirates and Ships since 3300

  5. #365
    Originally Posted by Mohrgan View Post (Source)
    Convincing yourself doesn't count.
    I have quite high standards of proof. For me to be convinced of what the block functionality is doing is pretty telling.

    I've offered to demonstrate the blocking functionality to you. That offer is still open.

  6. #366
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    I have quite high standards of proof. For me to be convinced of what the block functionality is doing is pretty telling.

    I've offered to demonstrate the blocking functionality to you. That offer is still open.
    As soon as you can account for all of the decisions the matchmaking system has to make as we attempt to isolate the singular effects of the dreaded Block list, I'll come and have a look. In the mean time, I'll judge the Block list against the Friends list. And, it's obvious that the Friends list has more influence than the Block list. So, if we are going to call out the Block list, we should have to reckon with the Friends list as well.

    If outside stuffs influencing instancing is a bad thing, the Friends list should be Public Enemy No. 1. Think of all the Friends list exploiting going on as players use the Friends list to improve the likelihood of instancing with specific individuals. How many times have I missed meeting a new Commander, because a friend got in the way?
    A
    Elite Commander Mohrgan
    F.S.S. Wolfshead MO-04F
    Separating Pirates and Ships since 3300

  7. #367
    Originally Posted by Mohrgan View Post (Source)
    As soon as you can account for all of the decisions the matchmaking system has to make as we attempt to isolate the singular effects of the dreaded Block list, I'll come and have a look.
    Isolating the block list is pretty easy.

    We get some people together, all meet at the same starport. Then we make sure no one is on anyone else's block lists or friends lists and have various combinations of individuals reinstance. Then we start blocking people and see how that changes matchmaking. The only new variable is that list and it's effects are dramatic.

    I can, and have, told you what I've observed from tests like this, but you clearly won't take my word for it, so you'll have to show yourself.

    Originally Posted by Mohrgan View Post (Source)
    In the mean time, I'll judge the Block list against the Friends list.
    In order to judge anything you have to have a fair idea of how it works and both features can be judged independently of the other.

    Originally Posted by Mohrgan View Post (Source)
    And, it's obvious that the Friends list has more influence than the Block list. So, if we are going to call out the Block list, we should have to reckon with the Friends list as well.

    If outside stuffs influencing instancing is a bad thing, the Friends list should be Public Enemy No. 1. Think of all the Friends list exploiting going on as players use the Friends list to improve the likelihood of instancing with specific individuals. How many times have I missed meeting a new Commander, because a friend got in the way?
    A
    I've pointed out the clear failings of this obtuse reasoning before, but to put an answer to your rhetorical question...unless someone's friend had someone blocked, someone's friend is highly unlikely to get in the way, unless you are pushing the absolute limits of instancing, which is hard to do outside massive player organized events.

    This is something that can also be demonstrated.

  8. #368
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    Isolating the block list is pretty easy.

    We get some people together, all meet at the same starport. Then we make sure no one is on anyone else's block lists or friends lists and have various combinations of individuals reinstance. Then we start blocking people and see how that changes matchmaking. The only new variable is that list and it's effects are dramatic.

    I can, and have, told you what I've observed from tests like this, but you clearly won't take my word for it, so you'll have to show yourself.



    In order to judge anything you have to have a fair idea of how it works and both features can be judged independently of the other.



    I've pointed out the clear failings of this obtuse reasoning before, but to put an answer to your rhetorical question...unless someone's friend had someone blocked, someone's friend is highly unlikely to get in the way, unless you are pushing the absolute limits of instancing, which is hard to do outside massive player organized events.

    This is something that can also be demonstrated.
    And, we're back to baseless rantings. Out.
    Elite Commander Mohrgan
    F.S.S. Wolfshead MO-04F
    Separating Pirates and Ships since 3300

  9. #369
    Originally Posted by Mohrgan View Post (Source)
    As soon as you can account for all of the decisions the matchmaking system has to make as we attempt to isolate the singular effects of the dreaded Block list, I'll come and have a look. In the mean time, I'll judge the Block list against the Friends list. And, it's obvious that the Friends list has more influence than the Block list. So, if we are going to call out the Block list, we should have to reckon with the Friends list as well.

    If outside stuffs influencing instancing is a bad thing, the Friends list should be Public Enemy No. 1. Think of all the Friends list exploiting going on as players use the Friends list to improve the likelihood of instancing with specific individuals. How many times have I missed meeting a new Commander, because a friend got in the way?
    A
    Don't forget wings. Winging up influences instancing more strongly than any other tool players can access. It can even be exploited by groups to gang up on individuals when the game's normal instancing rules would have produced a 1v1.

    I propose that wings are changed to provide a shared comms channel by default, but only offer other features if the winged players happen to be instanced with each other organically.
    "I want to be able to play a great game without being griefed by teenagers" - David Braben

  10. #370
    Originally Posted by Rafe Zetter View Post (Source)
    If any player does anything out of spite..
    Essentially, this is how the block list will end up being used. Not the original purpose Frontier had in mind, which was to ensure people could silence those refusing to behave according to the ToS; eg racial slurs, repeated abuse. Instead, it's being used as a filter to block en masse, entire swathes of commanders as a methodology to sanitise the experience. Much like Frontier being overly accomodating to disconnected users, and in so doing creating the monster that is rampant CL'ing to everything from other commanders, to the environment, and all between.

    If Frontier is guilty of anything, it's not being a jaded development studio with years of online experience it can leverage to built robust online experiences, and instead coding the game from an almost childlike degree of naivety.

    We have no idea how this will scale; and people who assume it'll be fine, clearly haven't learned about the endless issues that plagued very large player groups (and still do). Do not assume blocking huge numbers of commanders will be fine. I'm pretty sure at some point people will discover it isn't. Likely because the developer never expected it to be used as a whitewashing tool at scale.

    It's the execution, as always, that permits (or not) the inevitable outcomes. I have no issue with block lists of obnoxious people who are breaking ToS. But it's all on the commander concerned, if they abuse the facility. Always.
    cmdr kofeyh | http://twitch.tv/kofeyh | "The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." – Citizen G'Kar

  11. #371
    Originally Posted by Gunnet View Post (Source)
    Don't forget wings. Winging up influences instancing more strongly than any other tool players can access. It can even be exploited by groups to gang up on individuals when the game's normal instancing rules would have produced a 1v1.

    I propose that wings are changed to provide a shared comms channel by default, but only offer other features if the winged players happen to be instanced with each other organically.
    Wings do indeed have huge influence on instancing, but as that is their prime purpose, is required to reliably have people play together, and isn't defying any reasonable concept of setting verisimilitude, I see no reason for matchmaking weight to not strongly favor wing members.

    And before anyone accuses me of being someone who has my CMDR gang up on others, or any other irrelevant and fallacious line of reasoning, I can provide ten-plus examples where I am outnumbered at least three to one for every example anyone can find of me fighting other CMDRs as part of a wing. Indeed, asymmetric conflicts where my CMDR is the underdog are the sort of combat encounters I enjoy most of all...not to say that preference is biasing my opinion on wings either.

  12. #372
    Really makes me laugh people can feel "grief" from space pixals! It has to be the saddest community of gamers around.
    CMDR DAVID187

  13. #373
    Its space, the games about exploration and protecting yourself from pirates if it wasn't then they wouldn't of had a cqc made entirely around fighter ships bro. you want to blow up ships? find a cqc match, if you want to pirate then pirate don't just "grief" some one by blowing up there ship just because you happen to find it. it just doesn't make sense

  14. #374
    Originally Posted by ronan187 View Post (Source)
    Really makes me laugh people can feel "grief" from space pixals! It has to be the saddest community of gamers around.
    On the flip side to that we have a commuity who is feeling "grief" becuase people are blocking them and dont want to play with them, oh and the endless threads about how little billy CL before I got to blow up his pixals, yeah the saddest community of gamers around for sure.

  15. #375
    Originally Posted by ronan187 View Post (Source)
    Really makes me laugh people can feel "grief" from space pixals! It has to be the saddest community of gamers around.
    Well, thank you for your valuable contribution.

    Orbiting inside the Roche Limit of sanity

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