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Thread: Lead Designers advice on dealing with griefing (part 2)

  1. #391
    Originally Posted by Genar-Hofoen View Post (Source)
    Except Frontier have already said the beginnings of C&P will be in 2.4, and they will implement a Karma system and are working on it. So there goes that one.
    Don't brother. He and the likes of him never going to understand.
    If no one want to play and talk with them, so we kick out combat log and block them, the error is not in our end, but theirs.

    BTW? This is their last leg... Their back against the wall.
    For my part?

    Ready!
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    FIRE!
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  2. #392
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    The problem with such one sided judgement calls is that the motivations of other CMDRs or players will generally be unknown, legitimate or not.

    Lets say my CMDR is commerce raiding by blowing up traders. My CMDR's goal is to delay the completion of a CG, or prevent economic aid to an enemy, or whatever...and the most effective way to do this is to destroy as much tonnage of cargo as possible as quickly as possible and make life as difficult for traders operating in the area as possible. You don't do this by fighting fair, or chatting with your targets. You find them, hit them with overwhelming force, and move on to the next, rinse and repeat. If I'm doing something along these lines, I'm not targeting the other player, my CMDR is targeting other CMDRs...but there is often very little difference, to an outside observer, or the victim, between this and various forms of 'griefing'.

    Personally, I don't think judgement calls on who is griefing should be in the hands of players, especially not those who have little reason to be impartial or who may have conflicting interests. Frontier should be making these calls, not just handing over easily abused tools to the masses in an MMO.
    I don't think Frontier should be spending time judging whether certain specific events in the game have been someone being griefed unless there is clear abuse. It would be a gigantic waste of resources. I think the block tool is a great way of lessening the support calls for such trivial grievances. I also don't see the abuse of the feature being even remotely comparable to other MMO's - this isn't a game with a player driven economy or competing resources or goals in the traditional sense. Furthermore anything that can be achieved with the block feature can already be achieved in PG and Solo - with far greater ease and effect. If your intention was to circumvent certain players or wings but still play with others - PG - if you wanted to just circumvent players altogether - there's solo.

    On the general topic of PVP (not directed at anyone in particular)

    PVP was designed to be "rare and meaningful". Anyone who plays purely for PVP, regardless of intentions or validity and then wishes to decry someone for not wanting to participate in their endeavours or be a part of their game is always going to tickle my funny bone. Elite was designed around many different playstyles and Open was never "PVP" mode. The fact that you can attack other CMDR's was not an endorsement of a wholly PVP playstyle. In the beginning it was being considered that you wouldn't even be able to determine whether someone was human or AI. PVP is not able to be forced off in PG nor is it possible in Open. It was supposed to be organic/natural - Frontier didn't want to police players, they wanted to watch what would happen. Sadly, they seem to have failed to deliver a reasonable C&P system and as such it's pretty difficult to really even consider the PVP that exists part of some "realistic" or "natural" narrative which I presume is what they wanted when they said "rare and meaningful".

    That a PVP community has emerged is not unexpected at all, particularly considering how little in-game punishment there is for being a roaming killer. (A playstyle I find as valid as any other). It was certainly not endorsed or intended but I think many players agree it was a rather short-sighted and amateurish implementation of C&P in the first place and the fact that it is so easy to be a roaming killer does definitely indicate encouragement or support of a PVP sub-community.



    As I've said before, I think the block tool is great, I think many people play this game for different reasons. I like all the drama of open, I think it's great, I don't participate in any roaming killing, I'm more of a Smuggling Bounty Hunter myself. If the opportunity presents itself (and it has in the past) I will engage targets without so much as a "howdy-do". I've had the same happen to me, it was thrilling. I appreciate others don't enjoy that and think if they can block me and avoid it - great, I wouldn't want to ruin someone else's experience with the game and believe them having the tools to stop that is a boon. With that being said, if someone has a bounty or is supporting the opposite faction in a combat zone I think my intentions and reasoning are pretty clear. For players weaving a more complicated or nuanced narrative that is obviously far more difficult to communicate as in the example from Morbad above. All the more reason a block tool can offer players a little more control over their own narrative - coming back to that "blaze your own trail" phrase people love to repeat.

  3. #393
    Originally Posted by Red Anders View Post (Source)
    Also I've realised with this post that it is literaly impossibleto discuss this topic (OP's I mean) for any length of time without it turning into a mode debate, simply because some players seem to view the game through the prism of their hopes and dreams rather than doing what most 'sensible adults' do (since you seem quite keen on people taking a mature approach) which is to deal with things as they are, not as you wish they were.
    So true!

  4. #394
    Originally Posted by Red Anders View Post (Source)
    Also I've realised with this post that it is literaly impossibleto discuss this topic (OP's I mean) for any length of time without it turning into a mode debate, simply because some players seem to view the game through the prism of their hopes and dreams rather than doing what most 'sensible adults' do (since you seem quite keen on people taking a mature approach) which is to deal with things as they are, not as you wish they were.
    Good advice.

    The block feature is there to be used and no amount of wailing about it is likely to change that.

    Until the promise of a working C&P system can entice people away from using the block function, we should just be mature and deal with things as they are.

  5. #395
    Originally Posted by Red Anders View Post (Source)
    Also I've realised with this post that it is literaly impossibleto discuss this topic (OP's I mean) for any length of time without it turning into a mode debate, simply because some players seem to view the game through the prism of their hopes and dreams rather than doing what most 'sensible adults' do (since you seem quite keen on people taking a mature approach) which is to deal with things as they are, not as you wish they were.
    Please correct me if I am wrong, but aren't you lobbying against the block function in this thread?

  6. #396
    Originally Posted by babelfisch View Post (Source)
    Please correct me if I am wrong, but aren't you lobbying against the block function in this thread?
    It doesn't matter what "side" he's on, he's still absolutely right. The issue is very emotive for some so actually discussing or even tolerating others being allowed to discuss it is can be problematic.



    FDEV's official advice on dealing with griefing :
    https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...efing-(part-2)

  7. #397
    Originally Posted by Soliluna View Post (Source)
    I also don't see the abuse of the feature being even remotely comparable to other MMO's - this isn't a game with a player driven economy or competing resources or goals in the traditional sense.
    Elite: Dangerous has far more ways for CMDRs to influence the game/setting everyone shares, from any mode, than most MMO's do. Which is one of many reasons I think giving players the means to exclude others for arbitrary reasons, in the sole inclusive mode, is so problematic.

    Originally Posted by Soliluna View Post (Source)
    All the more reason a block tool can offer players a little more control over their own narrative - coming back to that "blaze your own trail" phrase people love to repeat.
    And when we have multiple competing narratives occurring in the same places at the same time?

    Control over one's choices is all well and good, control over the setting one inhabits is another thing entirely. Blocking isn't a tool of the former, it doesn't give one more options, it tries to exclude challenges that don't fit the personal narrative of a player in a mode that is supposed to inclusive...and it's not free from side effects.

    "Blaze your own trail", right over and through everyone else's game.

    Originally Posted by Stealthie View Post (Source)
    Until the promise of a working C&P system can entice people away from using the block function
    I think it's naive to think that a working C&P system will 'entice' people away from blocking others whose playstyles they don't agree with.

    Originally Posted by Stealthie View Post (Source)
    we should just be mature and deal with things as they are.
    That's what we all do as we play the game we have, and it's no reason to ignore problems.

  8. #398
    Originally Posted by Stigbob View Post (Source)
    It doesn't matter what "side" he's on, he's still absolutely right. The issue is very emotive for some so actually discussing or even tolerating others being allowed to discuss it is can be problematic.
    I absolutely agree with that, I was just confused by the "which is to deal with things as they are, not as you wish they were." bit...

  9. #399
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    "Blaze your own trail", right over and through everyone else's game.
    We've established that by switching to PG or Solo you can completely ignore every single person in the game and whatever they happen to be doing. The block feature has less impact than this. It's definitely not impacting any one else's game any more than that player who has blocked them can impact it by switching to PG or Solo. In fact, the greatest impact they could have on the player is engaging in combat with them - which would require them not to be blocked.

    I would say nobody playing the game has a right to force another player into their narrative, competing or otherwise. The Solo and PG modes certainly support this right of the players and the block feature compliments it.

    I also disagree, that you can influence the game in ED more than most other MMO's. Any MMO with a player driven economy (which is most MMO's) can be impacted to a far greater degree than ED.

  10. #400
    Originally Posted by Soliluna View Post (Source)
    We've established that by switching to PG or Solo you can completely ignore every single person in the game and whatever they happen to be doing.
    Never been in dispute. Also not relevant.

    Originally Posted by Soliluna View Post (Source)
    It's definitely not impacting any one else's game any more than that player who has blocked them can impact it by switching to PG or Solo.
    This is not true. You move to solo or group, you remove yourself from my game. You block someone, you may well be removing them from my game, without my, or their, knowledge or consent.

    Originally Posted by Soliluna View Post (Source)
    I would say nobody playing the game has a right to force another player into their narrative, competing or otherwise.
    I would say that nobody playing the game has a right to force another player out of my narrative, competing or otherwise...but blocking does this, even if I am not blocked and not doing the blocking.

  11. #401
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    Never been in dispute. Also not relevant.



    This is not true. You move to solo or group, you remove yourself from my game. You block someone, you may well be removing them from my game, without my, or their, knowledge or consent.



    I would say that nobody playing the game has a right to force another player out of my narrative, competing or otherwise...but blocking does this, even if I am not blocked and not doing the blocking.

    You simply can't prove any of this. All of your objections are based on your outsized impression of what the Block feature does. As has been said, and ignored, by many, the Friends list has more impact on instancing than the Block list does. All of the other decisions the matchmaking system has to take, makes the Block list a very low likelihood of upsetting who you may meet in an instance. What ever complaint can be measured against the Block list can be just as easily applied to the Friends list. Your friends can block out new Commanders, were I to instance with you. Why is that more tolerable than the Block list?
    Elite Commander Mohrgan
    F.S.S. Wolfshead MO-04F
    Separating Pirates and Ships since 3300

  12. #402
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    Elite: Dangerous has far more ways for CMDRs to influence the game/setting everyone shares, from any mode, than most MMO's do. Which is one of many reasons I think giving players the means to exclude others for arbitrary reasons, in the sole inclusive mode, is so problematic.
    ED isn't other MMO's.

    Why is this one mechanism among the many you can use to influence the game any worse than the others. Especially when you bear in mind that blocking is such a minor thing in comparison to mode selection.

    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    And when we have multiple competing narratives occurring in the same places at the same time?

    Control over one's choices is all well and good, control over the setting one inhabits is another thing entirely. Blocking isn't a tool of the former, it doesn't give one more options, it tries to exclude challenges that don't fit the personal narrative of a player in a mode that is supposed to inclusive...and it's not free from side effects.

    "Blaze your own trail", right over and through everyone else's game.
    Blocking doesn't effect the setting or challenge of the game in the slightest, the biggest difference you can make to challenge is deliberately downgrading your ship. Human or NPC if you don't want to fight in ED safety is always just a high wake away, which again is down to individual choice.

    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    I think it's naive to think that a working C&P system will 'entice' people away from blocking others whose playstyles they don't agree with.
    Does that matter ?, what would you achieve by forcing people to either play with people they dislike or into situations they don't enjoy. It's just a game absolutely nothing about it is compulsory, you can't force people to do things they don't want to do in a video game.

    If you try people will simply menu-log, switch modes or block you. No-one can be forced to play with you.

    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    That's what we all do as we play the game we have, and it's no reason to ignore problems.
    And it's no reason to create them where they don't exist.



    FDEV's official advice on dealing with griefing :
    https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...efing-(part-2)

  13. #403
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    This is not true. You move to solo or group, you remove yourself from my game. You block someone, you may well be removing them from my game, without my, or their, knowledge or consent.
    Is that not exactly what's happening every time a PvPer either destroys another player's ship or causes another player to play in Solo mode?

    This all strikes me as being a bit like one of these "snowflake" types who gets all up in somebody's face, waves placards at them, jams a camera in their face and obstructs them but then cries like a baby and insists it's "assault" as soon as somebody touches them.

    If you're going to act like a tool, don't be surprised when people treat you like a tool.
    And, if other people act like tools and that causes problems for you, criticise the people acting like tools.

  14. #404
    Originally Posted by ronan187 View Post (Source)
    Really makes me laugh people can feel "grief" from space pixels! It has to be the saddest community of gamers around.
    Please state your ingame name so I can block you - then you won't have to deal with me.

    /irony

    Emotion comes from emotive things, cyber bullying and RL in your face bullying has been proven to produce the same emotional response; just as people go to the movies to watch horror films for the specific reason of being scared *hitless - or going to watch a comedy to make them laugh - are they pathetic for having an emotional reponse to the pixels on a big screen too, Ronan187? Space pixels are just as valid a method of interaction and source of emotive experiences as everything else around you on a daily basis.

    Unless you are a sociopath ofc, in which case the whole concept is alien to you; are you a sociopath Ronan187? Or do you lack the capacity to understand the not particularly complex subject of emotional involvement? Or maybe further you DO, and by insinuation that the community are "sad" you are in reality inflicting a form of bullying of your own, trolling, for your own gratification?

    In which case you are getting emotional gratification from pixels. The irony is strong with this one.


    Originally Posted by lokvette View Post (Source)
    On the flip side to that we have a community who is feeling "grief" because people are blocking them and don't want to play with them, oh and the endless threads about how little Billy CL before I got to blow up his pixels, yeah the saddest community of gamers around for sure.
    and you.

    BTw both of you.... "pixels" is with an E not an A.

    (stuff in red = spelling corrections.)
    If you are seeing this message, it means I've posted in a thread on a forum of a game I've NEVER PLAYED..... << this is a reminder to STOP IT.

  15. #405
    Originally Posted by Rafe Zetter View Post (Source)
    BTw both of you.... "pixels" is with an E not an A.

    (stuff in red = spelling corrections.)
    Well excuse me from suffering from dyslexia, it's one of those things I have to live with which normally involves me re reading my posts and relying on spell check to adjust my typing, and no this isn't the first time I've had to point out that I suffer from it. You might notice that most of my posts have edited on the top, this is due to the fact I can read something I've written 10 times and still not see a mistake, then come back to it and then I see it. in this short passage the little red line of spell check popped up at least 8 or more times.

    Add to that this is a games forum and people sometimes post from their phone picking up on people's spelling mistakes is a bit shallow, not even sure what you posted as I diddnt read anything you typed once I saw that.

    EDIT@ 10.40 see what I mean just had to change The word red, in the line the little red line. It was typed as tread didn't notice it till now.

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