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Thread: Lead Designers advice on dealing with griefing (part 2)

  1. #436
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    Elite: Dangerous is clearly an MMO--thousands of CMDRs are playing in the same game and interacting with each other via a single shared BGS. It's just heavily instanced and P2P, which limits how many can meet virtual face to virtual face at a time. It's also has relatively unrestricted PvP for an MMO.

    Beyond that things are subjective. I personally can't seen an MMO with an Open mode functioning well when players have the ability to pick and choose who they can or cannot encounter. Others obviously see things the opposite way, even if I struggle to recall any supporting precedents for their views.
    I think it's unrealistic to expect people to accept being forced to spend their leisure time with anyone they don't want to. Precedents don't really count for much when you are discussing a game with no contemporaries.



    FDEV's official advice on dealing with griefing :
    https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...efing-(part-2)

  2. #437
    Originally Posted by MarkAusten View Post (Source)
    However they fail to understand that just about everything you do in Elite forces your choice on other players.
    No, 'they' don't fail to understand this.

    There is a distinction between player and CMDR as well as between in and out of game/setting contexts.

    Instancing, as a whole, is part of the metagame that in-game entities cannot be aware of. That's player knowledge, not character knowledge.

    Combat, shifting faction influence/control, commodity prices, etc, those are in-character effects that have CMDRs influencing the setting of other CMDRs. Yes, out of game knowledge can be applied to this, but the actions and effects are completely explainable in an in-game context.

    Blocking is way out side that. It's something that has official blessing, but it's player action against another player that doesn't directly involve their CMDRs. From the perspective of our CMDRs in-game, the effect is as inexplicable as a combat log/willful disconnect.

    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commander Morbad!



    I just checked some details here: the wing relationship is pretty much the strongest one we have in the game in terms of trying to match make. It should override any amount of blocks, so it should not really be possible to prevent wing members from getting into the same instance by blocking.

    I think the issue here is, in part, down to what I said earlier: there are lots of elements under the hood that deal with match making Commanders. As players, we only see limited information, so it can be hard to understand what's actually going on.

    If you are seeing what looks like failed matchmaking between wing members, any data you can provide will help us work out what's going on (clearly something is, as you should match with wing members). Chances are though, that the cause will not be because of blocking.
    Thanks for the clarifications.

    I'm not convinced the way it's supposed to work is what's actually occurring, but now that I know how strong the winging effect on instancing is supposed to be, I can start gathering netlogs for a bug report.

  3. #438
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    Thanks for the clarifications.

    I'm not convinced the way it's supposed to work is what's actually occurring, but now that I know how strong the winging effect on instancing is supposed to be, I can start gathering netlogs for a bug report.
    Don't forget to mention you used to have 60-80 CMDR's blocked, that may be having an effect on your game especially if you didn't remove them all or vice versa.



    FDEV's official advice on dealing with griefing :
    https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...efing-(part-2)

  4. #439
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    Blocking is way out side that. It's something that has official blessing, but it's player action against. From the perspective of our CMDRs in-game, the effect is as inexplicable as a combat log/willful disconnect.
    So tell me, both Friend Lists and Wings are also player action against another player that doesn't directly involve their CMDRs yet you and many of the other anti-Block list brigade feel that these are acceptable. Again applying the same logic to another feature results in a diametrically opposed result. Inconsistent and illogical.

    ...and now irrelevant...

    Since, if I understand what Sandro has said, it turns out that the Block list appears to operate in a different fashion in that it is the blocking commander that is influenced rather than the other players including the blocked.

    Now you are going to argue that if this is correct and a blocking player is removed from the instance then this is still forcing one player's choice on other players. This is an argument that you are going to lose since the player can also achieve this in other ways. The player could High Wake, switch to Solo or PG, they could stop playing the game, they could log out and unfortunately they could also combat log.

    Now only one of these is an in-game action and all but the last are acceptable alternatives, but probably not to you. Nevertheless, these are how Elite works to which you will reply 'but that's not how it should work'. FDev think otherwise.

    Yet, your pushing for a change in this mechanic, ultimately, is potentially forcing a non-in-game action against other players, something that you are actively campaigning against. And you will argue this as well.

    No matter, I care not.

    Out.
    1. My opinions are worthless, just like yours.
    2. To me tact and diplomacy are interesting theoretical concepts.
    3. If you feel insulted by what I post, tough!
    4. Read at your own risk

    Putting the 'In' in 'Competent'.

  5. #440
    Originally Posted by MarkAusten View Post (Source)
    Now you are going to argue that if this is correct and a blocking player is removed from the instance then this is still forcing one player's choice on other players. This is an argument that you are going to lose since the player can also achieve this in other ways. The player could High Wake, switch to Solo or PG, they could stop playing the game, they could log out and unfortunately they could also combat log.
    What's achieved isn't the issue.

    How it's achieved is.

  6. #441
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    What's achieved isn't the issue.

    How it's achieved is.
    Not really. It has no effect on anyone as we know now.


    All the cogs and wheels stay still if it is the People's will.

  7. #442
    Originally Posted by Navigare Necesse Est View Post (Source)
    Not really.
    The context of a thing is critical, and for any plausible depiction of a setting, context is often far more important than magnitude.

    Executing someone after a fair trial is a far cry from turning that individual over to a lynch mob for summary justice, even if the outcome is the same corpse.

    Obtaining or losing an in-game asset in an multi-player game where one has agreed to some rules, via legitimate in-game means, is quite different from using a hack to obtain it, even if the end result is the same.

    Escaping a thousand encounters via high-wake to save your ship is fine, but willfully disconnecting even once to achieve the same effect is rightly forbidden.

    Even if the block feature is justifiable, the argument that players can avoid playing with each other via means other than blocking is not remotely a justification for anything. Such statements are absurd and completely miss the numerous points that have been made by those who take issue with this functionality.

    Originally Posted by Navigare Necesse Est View Post (Source)
    It has no effect on anyone as we know now.
    What has no effect on anyone?

  8. #443
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    The context of a thing is critical, and for any plausible depiction of a setting, context is often far more important than magnitude.

    Executing someone after a fair trial is a far cry from turning that individual over to a lynch mob for summary justice, even if the outcome is the same corpse.

    Obtaining or losing an in-game asset in an multi-player game where one has agreed to some rules, via legitimate in-game means, is quite different from using a hack to obtain it, even if the end result is the same.

    Escaping a thousand encounters via high-wake to save your ship is fine, but willfully disconnecting even once to achieve the same effect is rightly forbidden.

    Even if the block feature is justifiable, the argument that players can avoid playing with each other via means other than blocking is not remotely a justification for anything. Such statements are absurd and completely miss the numerous points that have been made by those who take issue with this functionality.



    What has no effect on anyone?
    These numerous points turned out to be mostly invalid, what's left is because. That's good enough for an opinion, but it's not good enough for an argument.

  9. #444
    Originally Posted by Schmack View Post (Source)
    Eventually the gankers and griefers are going to be playing in their own version of PG, albeit in an "Open" titled mode.
    That's precisely what they're afraid of, right there. Which is why these discussions are still going, three years after we first had to read them.

  10. #445
    Originally Posted by babelfisch View Post (Source)
    These numerous points turned out to be mostly invalid, what's left is because. That's good enough for an opinion, but it's not good enough for an argument.
    I'm not seeing how the context is 'mostly invalid'. Context is the entire basis of all the major issues presented in this thread.

    People aren't complaining about 'griefers' because of what they do, but how and why.

    People aren't complaining about the block feature because it allows CMDRs to avoid others, but because of how it does this and why the feature is being used.

  11. #446
    i really dont care how it works as long as i dont see the person i blocked. Then im happy.

  12. #447
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    I'm not seeing how the context is 'mostly invalid'. Context is the entire basis of all the major issues presented in this thread.

    People aren't complaining about 'griefers' because of what they do, but how and why.

    People aren't complaining about the block feature because it allows CMDRs to avoid others, but because of how it does this and why the feature is being used.
    Your version of context makes your interpretation of what an open mode should me the center point of your argument. Your. That's an important word here. What open means to you, has no weight as to what it means to others. Open is not some grand social contract that need to be protected and nurtured. Open is just a matchmaking choice, not a promise. I totally agree with the notion that if you log into open, you have to accept what happens there, but that doesn't mean you have to let it happen to you again. Don't come to the interweb and decry that your ship has been destroyed, that's expected. That is not license to annoy.

    You have been educated on how the Block mechanism works. FD have reinforced it's function, access, and it's uses, you're going to have to accept that what you are arguing, is not supported by the facts. Period. You are claiming fanciful affects to the Block, that just aren't attributed to the mechanism, by the guys that built it. Your only complaint, that can still be argued, is how the feature is being used. That debate, because establishing the facts is next to impossible, can go on forever. Enjoy.
    Elite Commander Mohrgan
    F.S.S. Wolfshead MO-04F
    Separating Pirates and Ships since 3300

  13. #448
    Originally Posted by Stigbob View Post (Source)
    I can't see an MMO working without a block.
    Yeah. And generally speaking, they only stop communication from a blocked player.

    But that was hardly my point.

    Originally Posted by Stigbob View Post (Source)
    I can confirm from my blocking research that you will still see people you've blocked in super-cruise regularly, they are just not there after interdiction.
    If the block list feature prevents player interdiction from super-cruise, then it's broken.

    Using it under such conditions should have about the same level of acceptability as using the premium ammo bug in PvP.
    Murder Hobo 4 Life - I'm taking it back. 1440

  14. #449
    Originally Posted by cheeseheads View Post (Source)
    i really dont care how it works as long as i dont see the person i blocked. Then im happy.
    To be fair, you should care because frivolous use of the block function means you're likely to end-up seeing a lot of perfectly decent CMDRs because they're instancing with one of the people you've blocked.

    I'm not suggesting that's what you are doing. I'm just saying you should care about how it works.

  15. #450
    Originally Posted by Zaphod Hawke View Post (Source)
    If the block list feature prevents player interdiction from super-cruise, then it's broken.

    Using it under such conditions should have about the same level of acceptability as using the premium ammo bug in PvP.
    Not really.

    You just got a sniff of somebody who, by all rights, you shouldn't have seen at all.

    If you're concerned that your time is being wasted interdicting ships that you won't instance with even if you succeed, perhaps it's time to rethink whether it's worth spending so much time interdicting people at all - or, at least, consider doing it in a manner that doesn't lead to being blocked?

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