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Thread: Lead Designers advice on dealing with griefing (part 2)

  1. #451
    Originally Posted by cheeseheads View Post (Source)
    i really dont care how it works as long as i dont see the person i blocked. Then im happy.
    Well said.

    I'll also add that this feature is working extremely well.
    Those I don't want to interact with, are locked away.
    Well done Fdev.

  2. #452
    Originally Posted by Zaphod Hawke View Post (Source)
    Yeah. And generally speaking, they only stop communication from a blocked player.

    But that was hardly my point.
    Well ED isn't a general game, which was my point. That's why I made it.

    Originally Posted by Zaphod Hawke View Post (Source)
    If the block list feature prevents player interdiction from super-cruise, then it's broken.

    Using it under such conditions should have about the same level of acceptability as using the premium ammo bug in PvP.
    No it's working exactly as intended, if you read Sandro's explanation what happens is the person with the active block is the one affected by the block.

    So say I'm already in supercruise o7'ing everyone in a friendly way, when someone I've got blocked (you just for the purposes of this explanation) enters the system via hyperjump. My block effects me not you so you enter the same instance, we see each other but can't communicate as that's blocked. You try to interdict me, I submit now my block comes into effect as I'm entering an instance with a blocked player and I get shunted into a different instance. We don't actually meet up.

    The reverse would work in that if you were in a system in supercruise, and I jumped in. My block on you would result in me getting popped into a different supercruise instance. Again we don't meet up, and I'm the only one effected.



    FDEV's official advice on dealing with griefing :
    https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...efing-(part-2)

  3. #453
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    No, 'they' don't fail to understand this.

    There is a distinction between player and CMDR as well as between in and out of game/setting contexts.

    Instancing, as a whole, is part of the metagame that in-game entities cannot be aware of. That's player knowledge, not character knowledge.

    Combat, shifting faction influence/control, commodity prices, etc, those are in-character effects that have CMDRs influencing the setting of other CMDRs. Yes, out of game knowledge can be applied to this, but the actions and effects are completely explainable in an in-game context.

    Blocking is way out side that. It's something that has official blessing, but it's player action against another player that doesn't directly involve their CMDRs. From the perspective of our CMDRs in-game, the effect is as inexplicable as a combat log/willful disconnect.
    Funnily enough, I've been thinking about players playing other players (rather than playing "the game") recently. The block feature, as you describe its use here, seems to be another facet of that.

    I don't have a horse in this race; I just felt it was a relevant observation.

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  4. #454
    Originally Posted by Stealthie View Post (Source)
    Not really.

    You just got a sniff of somebody who, by all rights, you shouldn't have seen at all.

    If you're concerned that your time is being wasted interdicting ships that you won't instance with even if you succeed, perhaps it's time to rethink whether it's worth spending so much time interdicting people at all - or, at least, consider doing it in a manner that doesn't lead to being blocked?
    Seeing someone in super-cruise is more than a sniff.

    A sniff would be a phantom spike on the bandwidth meter.

    That's not exactly game breaking.

    OTOH, players regularly disappearing on successful interdiction is.

    Originally Posted by Stigbob View Post (Source)
    No it's working exactly as intended, if you read Sandro's explanation what happens is the person with the active block is the one affected by the block.

    So say I'm already in supercruise o7'ing everyone in a friendly way, when someone I've got blocked (you just for the purposes of this explanation) enters the system via hyperjump. My block effects me not you so you enter the same instance, we see each other but can't communicate as that's blocked. You try to interdict me, I submit now my block comes into effect as I'm entering an instance with a blocked player and I get shunted into a different instance. We don't actually meet up.

    The reverse would work in that if you were in a system in supercruise, and I jumped in. My block on you would result in me getting popped into a different supercruise instance. Again we don't meet up, and I'm the only one effected.
    I saw no mention of super-cruise instancing or possible effects of the block list on player interdiction in Sandro's comments.

    Please show me where he stated this aspect was working as intended.
    Murder Hobo 4 Life - I'm taking it back. 1440

  5. #455
    Originally Posted by Zaphod Hawke View Post (Source)
    Seeing someone in super-cruise is more than a sniff.

    A sniff would be a phantom spike on the bandwidth meter.

    That's not exactly game breaking.

    OTOH, players regularly disappearing on successful interdiction is.



    I saw no mention of super-cruise instancing or possible effects of the block list on player interdiction in Sandro's comments.

    Please show me where he stated this aspect was working as intended.
    He talked of instances, and it's all just instances, supercruise, station, haz-rez it doesn't matter to the block it just reduces the chances of the blocker being instanced with the blockee the name is irrelevant. Sometimes you will see a blocked player, but probably not very often.

    So it's not really an issue as far as I'm concerned.



    FDEV's official advice on dealing with griefing :
    https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...efing-(part-2)

  6. #456
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    ...


    What has no effect on anyone?
    Getting blocked. Player isn't there. You'll never even know.


    All the cogs and wheels stay still if it is the People's will.

  7. #457
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commanders!

    A couple of points worth noting:

    The block effect is asymmetrical, in that it is much stronger when the blocking player is arriving at a location where the blocked player already is - effectively more of the onus is on the blocker to change their game than the blocked player.

    Instancing is a pretty complicated calculation, affected by a significant number of checks, such as instance populations, quality of player connections, friends, wing members, blocked players, blocking players, recent connections (and possibly more - far cleverer folk than me work this out). The weightings for these elements varies as well - wing membership, for example, is an extremely strong weighting towards allowing a match up.

    Whilst I'm sure that to some degree matchmaking can be influenced, the complexity and number of elements completely out of the player's control (or even knowledge) are a strong limiting factor.

    At the end of the day, ignoring players is a completely personal choice, that *influences* the chance of meeting ignored players, reducing the *potential* for match making with them.
    Thanks for stepping in and offering some words on the feature. It's ironed out a lot of the contentious points regarding it.

    I'm glad the feature is in the game, more games should have it.

  8. #458
    Originally Posted by Zaphod Hawke View Post (Source)
    Seeing someone in super-cruise is more than a sniff.

    A sniff would be a phantom spike on the bandwidth meter.

    That's not exactly game breaking.

    OTOH, players regularly disappearing on successful interdiction is.
    What's "game-breaking" about failing to interdict somebody who doesn't want to meet you in-game?

    A more introspective person might, instead, spend their time considering why so many people have blocked them if this becomes regular enough to be irritating.

  9. #459
    Originally Posted by Stealthie View Post (Source)
    A more introspective person might, instead, spend their time considering why so many people have blocked them if this becomes regular enough to be irritating.
    Bingo.

    If you're getting blocked a lot, then there's probably a very good reason for it.

  10. #460
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    (and possibly more - far cleverer folk than me work this out)
    This is Beige Cowboy Code for "DAV! DAV! DAV!"

  11. #461
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commander Morbad!



    I just checked some details here: the wing relationship is pretty much the strongest one we have in the game in terms of trying to match make. It should override any amount of blocks, so it should not really be possible to prevent wing members from getting into the same instance by blocking.

    I think the issue here is, in part, down to what I said earlier: there are lots of elements under the hood that deal with match making Commanders. As players, we only see limited information, so it can be hard to understand what's actually going on.

    If you are seeing what looks like failed matchmaking between wing members, any data you can provide will help us work out what's going on (clearly something is, as you should match with wing members). Chances are though, that the cause will not be because of blocking.
    That's awesome, thanks Mr. Sandro. That right there means, if any of you guys ever feel the Hand of Block over your games, wing up with a completely unsuspecting person and voilà, bye bye Block. Now I'm starting to love the Block, since it can be circumvented
    MSR

  12. #462
    Originally Posted by Stealthie View Post (Source)
    Geez, there's a comment which is headed for instant meme status.

    Did you really mean to suggest that people who block those they consider to be acting unreasonably need to "change their game"?

    If you didn't mean it that way you should probably clarify what you did mean.
    In open, it makes sense that the onus is on the person who wants to filter their experience, to filter their experience. It's simple process ownership, really. We already have two other modes that make blocking essentially irrelevant. So Sandro's comment makes sense, given that blocking is essentially there to act as a way to limit exposure to repeat offenders within a massive multiplayer system.

    Again, blocking a person isn't actually blocking a person; it's deprioritizing the person, with presumably all voice/ text comms actually closed. So it's not like you can force the game to never instance with an individual (which is what the op is essentially trying to do) - rather - reduce the chances considerably, within a system that has a number of factors considered for instancing.

    Arguably if "the list" starts getting into high double, or triple figures, it's probably time to decide is Open even the sane choice? There is nothing wrong with expecting commanders to be able to make some simple decisions and give them some basic tools to self manage. But if it's basically being treated like a <proverbial> list, then I doubt strongly that was the design intent and as such YMMV.
    cmdr kofeyh | http://twitch.tv/kofeyh | "The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." – Citizen G'Kar

  13. #463
    Originally Posted by Navigare Necesse Est View Post (Source)
    Getting blocked. Player isn't there. You'll never even know.
    Except there is more to it than that. Not getting an instance that should be more populated, not seeing people that should be able to get into your instance without winging with them, going into a low wake to find nothing, interdicting/being interdicted and finding nothing, etc.

    Absence is often just as telling as presence.

    Originally Posted by EvE4evah View Post (Source)
    That right there means, if any of you guys ever feel the Hand of Block over your games, wing up with a completely unsuspecting person and voilà, bye bye Block.
    If it's working correctly and I have my doubts. The block feature is of significantly diminished utility if it can be bypassed by wings, but if it can break wings up, it's just as broken in the opposite direction.

    Not that I think using people to get into instances you'd otherwise not get into is any more acceptable than abusing the block feature in the first place.

  14. #464
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    Except there is more to it than that. Not getting an instance that should be more populated, not seeing people that should be able to get into your instance without winging with them, going into a low wake to find nothing, interdicting/being interdicted and finding nothing, etc.

    Absence is often just as telling as presence.



    If it's working correctly and I have my doubts. The block feature is of significantly diminished utility if it can be bypassed by wings, but if it can break wings up, it's just as broken in the opposite direction.

    Not that I think using people to get into instances you'd otherwise not get into is any more acceptable than abusing the block feature in the first place.
    Basically, it just sounds like a mess that even Sandro doesn't fully understand how it all works.

    And it begs the question: why isn't Solo/Group enough of a tool for players to sort out who they want to play with?
    Quitting the game to play the forum full time.

  15. #465
    Originally Posted by Morbad View Post (Source)
    Except there is more to it than that. Not getting an instance that should be more populated, not seeing people that should be able to get into your instance without winging with them, going into a low wake to find nothing, interdicting/being interdicted and finding nothing, etc.

    Absence is often just as telling as presence.



    If it's working correctly and I have my doubts. The block feature is of significantly diminished utility if it can be bypassed by wings, but if it can break wings up, it's just as broken in the opposite direction.

    Not that I think using people to get into instances you'd otherwise not get into is any more acceptable than abusing the block feature in the first place.
    I wholeheartedly agree with all your points. It was an irony directed not at FDev, but at the Blockmongers. Sorry, I'm really bad at ironies, I know. Also it's admirable how straight to the point and restlessly logic your argumentation always is.
    MSR

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