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Thread: Lead Designers advice on dealing with griefing (part 2)

  1. #1

    Lead Designers advice on dealing with griefing (part 2)

    If this thread has already made you feel very cross indeed scroll to the bottom and read the disclaimer.


    I've found the advice of Sandro Sammarco ED's lead designer on the griefing issue from way back in 2014. The block function (which has recently been improved) was developed specifically to deal with issues such as griefers. There are a lot of misconceptions about the block function such as why it exists, when it should be used and how it works. Hopefully this thread and especially Sandro's comments can help clarify some of that.



    Sandro Sammarco on using the block function to counter griefers in 2014:

    "Hello Commanders!
    In this instance, blocking the Commander might prove quite useful.
    When you block somebody, a couple of things should happen.
    Firstly, you will receive no communications from them.
    Secondly, during any transition where matchmaking is at work (so basically, hyperspace jumps, entering and exiting super cruise) you are much less likely to be matched with the blocked Commander.
    Blocking becomes weaker when it comes up against friends (and next year, player wings), because if a blocked Commander is in the same session as a friend (say, because they haven't blocked the Commander, the blocking effect is overruled by the friendship matchmaking.
    Outside of this case though, blocking should work fine"


    Link as it's too old to be quoted : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...CK#post1219313



    Sandro explaining how the block function works 2017

    Hello Commanders!
    A couple of points worth noting:
    The block effect is asymmetrical, in that it is much stronger when the blocking player is arriving at a location where the blocked player already is - effectively more of the onus is on the blocker to change their game than the blocked player.
    Instancing is a pretty complicated calculation, affected by a significant number of checks, such as instance populations, quality of player connections, friends, wing members, blocked players, blocking players, recent connections (and possibly more - far cleverer folk than me work this out). The weightings for these elements varies as well - wing membership, for example, is an extremely strong weighting towards allowing a match up.
    Whilst I'm sure that to some degree matchmaking can be influenced, the complexity and number of elements completely out of the player's control (or even knowledge) are a strong limiting factor.

    At the end of the day, ignoring players is a completely personal choice, that *influences* the chance of meeting ignored players, reducing the *potential* for match making with them.


    Link : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...91#post5787391




    I've recently done some in-game experimentation with the block function at CG's and it is functioning exactly as always intended. I added some of the station rammers to my block list (using the method below) and have since spent some time hanging around the stations/systems of the CG's logging in and out whilst trying to get instanced with the blocked. It was completely effective I rarely saw them, this is to be expected as the block function works by reducing not eliminating the chances of being instanced with a blocked player (see Sandro's explanation).

    Originally I was actively trying to block all station rammers and known cheats, however the more I've looked into this the more it's become apparent that they are largely the same players. So I think there is no real need to make a distinction between the two. The station rammers however are extremely easy to find if you are looking to proactively block.



    Here's a quick how to :

    You can bock anyone in your comms panel in either the contacts tab for current CMDR's, or the history tab for a list of players you've been instanced with in reverse chronological order. You can also block people in your friends list.

    To block someone simply select that CMDR, and select block player from the drop down menu.




    Here's a longer how to on specifically tagging station griefers :

    Visit any community goal, enter the station return to surface. Alt-tab and get on with something else when you hear explosions alt-tab back and have a look (this is why you are at the surface). If you see people ramming, dropping mines, doing the torpedo thing, target one add him to your block list, alt-tab check you-tube for the same CMDR griefing and grab the names of anyone flying with him, pencil them into your to be blocked list. Go AFK for an extended period when you come back check your contacts list and block any of the names on your list it has grabbed.

    You can hurry this process up by assuming anyone whose avatar has clown face paint, neon hair and a purple exhaust is a griefer (check you-tube first to confirm).

    Salt gathering video's uploaded by griefers are the second best source of griefer/griefer wingmate names, after seeing them yourself.

    Congratulations you've just fixed Elite Dangerous.




    If you feel you were griefed/harassed report the player(s) in question

    (all credit to Rootsrat for this section)

    Do this via in game report player tool. Harassing other players is not allowed in Elite and - while some may not agree that for example dropping bombs on a parked ship is harassment - if you feel you have been griefed (as opposed to ganked/attacked/killed in PVP, see below in spoiler tag), report it and let FDEV be the judge of that. They are Game Masters here and they have a final word in this.

    Now, before the PVP players jump and crucify me - there is a very fine line between ganking and griefing. Someone interdicting, attacking and killing me my exploration equipped Conda is complete different to someone ramming a Cutter in their Sidewinder in order for the station to destroy the Cutter. It all depends on the context. Ganking is killing someone, griefing is harassing someone. There is a difference between the two, although sometimes it's not a big one. Griefing is not PVP. Coming onto someone's ship in Multi Crew and firing all their Cell Banks, so that they boil is griefing, not ganking. Destroying Sidewinders in Erevate or near Trevithick Dock is griefing, not PVP. Dropping bombs on a parked ship is on the border. (My opnion. Yours may differ, so may FDEV's. The latter is the final one though).

    There are many different scenarios and like I said the line is very fine - but if you feel you were harassed in game, please report the griefer via the in game tools. The more reports FDEV gets about a player, the more evidence they will have. They may take no action or they may take some action. Let them be the judge.



    David Braben quote on griefing

    In the words of David Braben "What would I want from a game ?, I want to be able to play a great game without being griefed by teenagers. But having said that I do want a feeling of risk out there"

    About 7 minutes in.




    Disclaimer :

    The first version of this thread got shut down following the arrival of a rowdy coach party who got lost on the way to Hotel California (that's the OPENvSOLOvGROUP threadnaught for anyone who never reads it). If you want to call me or anyone else names for posting in this thread or go off topic and tell everyone which mode they have to play in from now on or else, do it in that thread.

    If you do it here I'm unfortunately obligated to report you.


    If you are still angry and need to vent your spleen here is Hotel California : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...tel-California




    EDIT : added Sandro's explanation of how blocking works

    First version of this thread : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...-with-griefing



    FDEV's official advice on dealing with griefing :
    https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...efing-(part-2)

  2. #2
    Excellent info. Thanks OP.

  3. #3
    The biggest issue with the blocking option is that you can not search for players to put them onto your block list. I have already made a bug report to this:

    https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...22#post5756922

  4. #4
    I would suggest, however, that the Block feature should be used sparingly. This is just my own opinion, but if your block list is into significant double-digits then it may not be the right tool for the job.

    Orbiting inside the Roche Limit of sanity

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by GreyAreaUK View Post (Source)
    I would suggest, however, that the Block feature should be used sparingly. This is just my own opinion, but if your block list is into significant double-digits then it may not be the right tool for the job.
    I agree totally, I've gone at it quite hard but in a very targeted way for science. It seems very effective with even just a few names on it, as Sandro explained back in 2014 the friends list takes priority over block so one blocked rammer could in theory vastly decrease the chances of you being instanced with anyone in his friends list.

    I think.



    FDEV's official advice on dealing with griefing :
    https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...efing-(part-2)

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by Imo View Post (Source)
    The biggest issue with the blocking option is that you can not search for players to put them onto your block list. I have already made a bug report to this:

    https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...22#post5756922
    Great in theory, the only problem is the people who can't be trusted not to abuse it and stop the rest of us from having nice things. Like the speed limit it would be intended to solve a problem but would be exploitable.



    FDEV's official advice on dealing with griefing :
    https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...efing-(part-2)

  7. #7
    Yeah, I blocked someone on Xbox Live yesterday, after a ganking in ED.

    I was flying my Dolphin, he was in a fully engineered Federal Corvette... Yeah, much skill, so elite, wow.

    Mind you I made no comments to him. When he pulled me I knew it was over. I recognised his GamerTag. Let him do his thing against my Dolphin carrying no weapons... And when I respawned I went to my recent players... Blocked.

    Thing is I don't think I would have blocked him had he given some dialogue over the comments. He chased me in SC for about two minutes. He had time. But no words were exchanged by either party.

    Quite frankly, if that is how he chooses to play, he doesn't get to be part of my game any longer.

    I have no shame in telling you this. As the devs' have stated, blocking is there to be used at the player's discretion.
    Flying with the grace of a unicorn...
    Xbox GT: V8UC UNICORN PC CMDR: [REDACTED]
    Cobra Mk III official Owner's Club: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...I-Owner-s-Club
    Flight System: Razer Ornata & Mamba | Saitek X52 | HyperX Cloud II | MSI Z97 GAMING 5 | 16GB Corsair Vengeance RAM | MSI GTX 960 4GB | Intel i5-4690 @ 3.5 GHZ

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Un1k0rn View Post (Source)
    Yeah, I blocked someone on Xbox Live yesterday, after a ganking in ED.

    I was flying my Dolphin, he was in a fully engineered Federal Corvette... Yeah, much skill, so elite, wow.

    Mind you I made no comments to him. When he pulled me I knew it was over. I recognised his GamerTag. Let him do his thing against my Dolphin carrying no weapons... And when I respawned I went to my recent players... Blocked.

    Thing is I don't think I would have blocked him had he given some dialogue over the comments. He chased me in SC for about two minutes. He had time. But no words were exchanged by either party.

    Quite frankly, if that is how he chooses to play, he doesn't get to be part of my game any longer.

    I have no shame in telling you this. As the devs' have stated, blocking is there to be used at the player's discretion.
    That's the beauty of player choice, it's entirely up to you. I don't mind pirates, PVP'ers or even gankers but the station rammers are just such a chore to check for then bypass after nearly 3 years I just can't be bothered with them anymore. By blocking them I can just get on with the game.

    Does blocking work the same way on X-box, I can always bung in some x-box specific alterations.



    FDEV's official advice on dealing with griefing :
    https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...efing-(part-2)

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by Stigbob View Post (Source)
    That's the beauty of player choice, it's entirely up to you. I don't mind pirates, PVP'ers or even gankers but the station rammers are just such a chore to check for then bypass after nearly 3 years I just can't be bothered with them anymore. By blocking them I can just get on with the game.

    Does blocking work the same way on X-box, I can always bung in some x-box specific alterations.
    It's arguably more advanced on Xbox. Why? Because on Xbox you can search the player's GT and block them. Sure that means blocking in all games, but hey it works.

    And to haters: No, this isn't going to change on Xbox. Blocking is actually out of Frontier's hands on Xbox, as the blocking is done on the Xbox Live service itself. You're not blocking in one game; you're blocking from all games.
    Flying with the grace of a unicorn...
    Xbox GT: V8UC UNICORN PC CMDR: [REDACTED]
    Cobra Mk III official Owner's Club: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...I-Owner-s-Club
    Flight System: Razer Ornata & Mamba | Saitek X52 | HyperX Cloud II | MSI Z97 GAMING 5 | 16GB Corsair Vengeance RAM | MSI GTX 960 4GB | Intel i5-4690 @ 3.5 GHZ

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Un1k0rn View Post (Source)
    It's arguably more advanced on Xbox. Why? Because on Xbox you can search the player's GT and block them. Sure that means blocking in all games, but hey it works.

    And to haters: No, this isn't going to change on Xbox. Blocking is actually out of Frontier's hands on Xbox, as the blocking is done on the Xbox Live service itself. You're not blocking in one game; you're blocking from all games.
    On PC you just get a vast reduction in the chances of instancing with someone who is blocked, your version sounds quite a lot better.



    FDEV's official advice on dealing with griefing :
    https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...efing-(part-2)

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by Stigbob View Post (Source)
    On PC you just get a vast reduction in the chances of instancing with someone who is blocked, your version sounds quite a lot better.
    Do understand, it's not foolproof. I was playing ESO on Xbox once. Found someone who was being well, quite selfish, hogging all the loot. I blocked him, but to this day I still encounter him. Might be the game though... Couldn't tell you for sure.

    What I can tell you is, is that as far as I am aware, you don't even need to encounter an Xbox Live profile to block them. As long as you know their GT, you can just search for their profile, and hit block.
    Flying with the grace of a unicorn...
    Xbox GT: V8UC UNICORN PC CMDR: [REDACTED]
    Cobra Mk III official Owner's Club: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...I-Owner-s-Club
    Flight System: Razer Ornata & Mamba | Saitek X52 | HyperX Cloud II | MSI Z97 GAMING 5 | 16GB Corsair Vengeance RAM | MSI GTX 960 4GB | Intel i5-4690 @ 3.5 GHZ

  12. #12
    Was a second thread that's exactly the same as the first really necessary? I mean what is it you wish to discuss that wasn't already covered in your first thread OP?

    If your aim was to inform people then your first thread already did that. Posting a duplicate makes you seem like you have an agenda that you want to aggressively push down everyone's throats.

    --- "Mercy is the mark of a great man... Guess I'm just a good man... Well, I'm all right." ---

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by Imo View Post (Source)
    The biggest issue with the blocking option is that you can not search for players to put them onto your block list. I have already made a bug report to this:

    https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...22#post5756922
    You would be allowing for witch hunting, naming and shaming, and greifing via the block feature if that were the case. It would be ripe for abuse.

    Say for example someone doesn't like that a CMDR blew them up once or don't like what he wrote on a forum, or they don't like a Youtube video he made. So out of spite they go and smear his name all over every public and private channel they have access to in an attempt to empty out their Open play experience. That right there is textbook greifing and I do not want the developers to ever implement more ways for greifing.

    The bare minimum requirement to block someone is to instance with them at least once in-game because this keeps the block feature from being abused and/or used to block someone for any random out of game reason. It is not a hard thing to ask of you to be honest.

  14. #14
    Slight off-topic interjection:

    OP was in communication with the mod team and was given the go-ahead to try a Mk2 version of the original thread.

  15. #15
    Blocklists available? It'd be fair, since the others have KoS lists, too.


    All the cogs and wheels stay still if it is the People's will.

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