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Thread: Ship Rebuy Penalty Cost Discussion

  1. #61
    Originally Posted by Agony_Aunt View Post (Source)
    Urk? Have you tested this? If so, seems like a glaring loophole.



    I don't think its intended to change their minds. Just make sure people can't clear their bounties on the cheap and then go back to cruising in a system without worries about the cops. Sure, most will say i think that the NPC cops are easy, but they can still be an annoyance to people for example camping stations. A bit hard to sit silent running waiting to blow someone up when the cops are firing on you.
    Not had a chance yet. It's just that's what it sounds like from Sandro's description. I'll be on again tonight and I'll find out with a vid for the record.

  2. #62
    Originally Posted by Agony_Aunt View Post (Source)
    I'm a bit dissapointed this mechanic doesn't cover NPC kills as well. I always thought this change was about closing the suicidewinder exploit, not just for dealing with gankers/griefers.

    There are people out there that use the suicidewinder exploit for NPC bounties, and i feel that is still wrong.

    Do the crime, do the time.
    NPC kills have a minor consequence on the game as opposed to player kills. Why should the consequences be the same?

    This is especially true when it is so easy to incur a bounty in game that WILL attract a rebuy sized cost for just a few thousand credit bounty. E.g
    NPC fighter accidentally shoots an NPC when you have stopped.
    Shooting skimmers to do base attack missions
    The game spawning NPC ships right in front of you as you emerge from supercruise or dock.

    While true to the 'letter' of the law there will exist to potential for this to be seen as 'broken' or extremely punitive and could possibly result in more calls to support to compensate.

    It also adds to complexity of the game needing to remember the 'rules' when infiltrating or attacking bases etc, so it makes an already complex series of do's or do not's even more complex.

    How is that NOT a broken system or are you claiming that killing an NPC has the same consequence to the game as a player? Kill an NPC and they spawn back and no one cares. Kill a player and they may move away from open, quit the game, spread their negative views on the game etc etc.

    It's all about consequences.

    For sure stuff like collision kills, and the loop holes people have found need to be addressed.

    But also the Pilot federation bounty Is supposedly about 10K, which if it's supposed to deter players from killing other players will not work (its far too small and even re-arming a ship can cost more) and from a lore perspective neither would it reflect the gravity of the offense of killing another PF member, or supposedly recouping costs from destroyed ships. In short the PF's punishment does not fit the crime.

  3. #63
    Originally Posted by Shanaeri View Post (Source)
    NPC kills have a minor consequence on the game as opposed to player kills. Why should the consequences be the same?

    This is especially true when it is so easy to incur a bounty in game that WILL attract a rebuy sized cost for just a few thousand credit bounty. E.g
    NPC fighter accidentally shoots an NPC when you have stopped.
    Shooting skimmers to do base attack missions
    The game spawning NPC ships right in front of you as you emerge from supercruise or dock.

    While true to the 'letter' of the law there will exist to potential for this to be seen as 'broken' or extremely punitive and could possibly result in more calls to support to compensate.

    It also adds to complexity of the game needing to remember the 'rules' when infiltrating or attacking bases etc, so it makes an already complex series of do's or do not's even more complex.

    How is that NOT a broken system or are you claiming that killing an NPC has the same consequence to the game as a player? Kill an NPC and they spawn back and no one cares. Kill a player and they may move away from open, quit the game, spread their negative views on the game etc etc.

    It's all about consequences.

    For sure stuff like collision kills, and the loop holes people have found need to be addressed.

    But also the Pilot federation bounty Is supposedly about 10K, which if it's supposed to deter players from killing other players will not work (its far too small and even re-arming a ship can cost more) and from a lore perspective neither would it reflect the gravity of the offense of killing another PF member, or supposedly recouping costs from destroyed ships. In short the PF's punishment does not fit the crime.
    Because it was a perfect opportunity to close a loophole. Agony isn't suggesting a PF bounty, just the lock on rebuy being tied to the price of the offending ship, therefore nullifying the gains from suicidewindering your way out of a bounty altogether.

  4. #64
    Originally Posted by Ozram View Post (Source)
    Because it was a perfect opportunity to close a loophole. Agony isn't suggesting a PF bounty, just the lock on rebuy being tied to the price of the offending ship, therefore nullifying the gains from suicidewindering your way out of a bounty altogether.
    This.

    There is a glaring loophole in the game that needs closing. Then FD decide instead of closing it properly, they turn it into a PvP issue, when its also a PvE issue. I feel this is wrong.

  5. #65
    Originally Posted by Ozram View Post (Source)
    Because it was a perfect opportunity to close a loophole. Agony isn't suggesting a PF bounty, just the lock on rebuy being tied to the price of the offending ship, therefore nullifying the gains from suicidewindering your way out of a bounty altogether.

    The suicide winder trick is indeed lame, but I was addressing the fundamental question of when should the rebuy cost be imposed. I would strongly argue it should NOT be for NPC death but for player death (for the reasons above)

    You also need to think about consequences. Which has a greater impact on the health of game. Player killing or suicide winding due to NPC bounty. Surely whatever has the greatest consequence should have the stronger penalty?

    This is only version 1, we still have the karma system to come, so i'm sure this discussion will roll on and on and we have been told the suicide winder trick will be looked at as part of the larger C&P system revamp.

  6. #66
    Originally Posted by Agony_Aunt View Post (Source)
    This.

    There is a glaring loophole in the game that needs closing. Then FD decide instead of closing it properly, they turn it into a PvP issue, when its also a PvE issue. I feel this is wrong.
    Well, no one likes PvP'ers, might as well stick it to em.

  7. #67
    The exploits must of course go. The BGS has a mechanism to count 'murder' (regardless wether NPC or player) within the jurisdiction of a faction...

    However, for the sake of gameplay, there should be some exceptions:

    If two minor factions are at war, PvP between players allied to the opposing factions should not be considered 'crime' at all. If possible, plz remove the bounties 'my' faction keeps giving me for attacking their enemies.

    If players pledged to opposing (powerplay) powers engage in PvP it shouldnt be considered 'crime' either.

    As for wings: One wingmember allied/pledged = wing allied/pledged ? Regarding solely C&P.

    Related: Would it be possible that every ship belonging to (NPC) or allied with (player) a minor faction spawns a 'distress call' USS in systems controlled by said faction when attacked by a player? Possibly like the ones we have for 'mission target'? Possibly not in compromised nav beacon, haz res, and combat zone - locations?

    2 cent.

  8. #68
    Originally Posted by DragonsClaw View Post (Source)
    If two minor factions are at war, PvP between players allied to the opposing factions should not be considered 'crime' at all. If possible, plz remove the bounties 'my' faction keeps giving me for attacking their enemies.
    Somebody being "allied" with a faction can mean as little as having traded with them or sold exploration data at one of their stations, it doesn't automatically make the player a combatant on the faction's side during a war.

    The fact that you support a faction doesn't mean they're fine with you committing criminal acts in their territory either.

  9. #69
    Originally Posted by Shanaeri View Post (Source)
    The suicide winder trick is indeed lame, but I was addressing the fundamental question of when should the rebuy cost be imposed. I would strongly argue it should NOT be for NPC death but for player death (for the reasons above)

    You also need to think about consequences. Which has a greater impact on the health of game. Player killing or suicide winding due to NPC bounty. Surely whatever has the greatest consequence should have the stronger penalty?

    This is only version 1, we still have the karma system to come, so i'm sure this discussion will roll on and on and we have been told the suicide winder trick will be looked at as part of the larger C&P system revamp.
    Well, it's a missed opportunity. Also, there are other consequences that come with the PF bounty (which do not extend to NPCs). It's galaxy wide (other than anarchy) and unless it was a coincidence, I had an NPC doggedly come after me in a spade of interdictions that only stopped once I managed to get within the boundary of the planet (where interdictions are impossible). The issue of wiping bounties for peanuts is widespread. Just about everyone does it except for some of us diehards. Real shame to skip that here and now.

  10. #70
    Originally Posted by Ozram View Post (Source)
    Well, it's a missed opportunity. Also, there are other consequences that come with the PF bounty (which do not extend to NPCs). It's galaxy wide (other than anarchy) and unless it was a coincidence, I had an NPC doggedly come after me in a spade of interdictions that only stopped once I managed to get within the boundary of the planet (where interdictions are impossible). The issue of wiping bounties for peanuts is widespread. Just about everyone does it except for some of us diehards. Real shame to skip that here and now.
    As I said, this is the first iteration. Step 1 stop suicide winding for PK killers, Step 2. use how well Step 1 works(or not) to introduce a C&P karma system to deal with combat logging and the rest of it.

  11. #71
    Originally Posted by Shanaeri View Post (Source)
    As I said, this is the first iteration. Step 1 stop suicide winding for PK killers, Step 2. use how well Step 1 works(or not) to introduce a C&P karma system to deal with combat logging and the rest of it.
    Yeah... and as I said, big missed opportunity.

  12. #72
    Originally Posted by Ozram View Post (Source)
    Yeah... and as I said, big missed opportunity.
    isn't it only missed once the full C&P system is in?

  13. #73
    Originally Posted by Jpfan01 View Post (Source)
    As long as it's not doubling dipping like currently. I'm cool with agreeing that if I shoot someone I'm willing to rebuy my ship. I go into every encounter with mindset this may go south and I'll die. That's the gamble I make. That's no different than what I do now. I just fly around everywhere wanted. It gets reset when I die, so I try to stay alive as long as possible.
    By double-dipping you're referring to how you pay the rebuy on the ship you die in (X) plus the rebuy on the ship you committed the murder in (Y) plus the bounty (Z). And when X and Y are the same, you're double dipping?

    The thing is, if you die in a sidewinder then X is small, so Y has to remain as-is to be in any way effective. And if you die in the expensive ship and X and Y are the same, why would you only pay one of those? I mean, you could chose the free sidewinder, lose the expensive ship, and only pay one but that would be a very bad idea I would think.

    So, unlike others, I don't think the current behaviour is a bug, necessarily. I think it's a necessity. If you commit murder you will pay an additional penalty equal to your current rebuy - that's how I would word it.

    On the issue of whether these rebuy penalties stack (one per murder) or not.. I'm not totally convinced either way. On the one hand I can see them being fairly ineffective if they don't, on the other they might be quite prohibitive to certain career paths. I am not really all that sympathetic to the player who wants to play a murder hobo - if it was my playground I would evict them, end of story. But, if Frontier want to be more inclusive than that, so they have to somehow deal with that case.

    The piracy career should not require murder, but I think for a pirate to be effective they do need some sort of leverage over their targets and death is the most obvious of these. I've posted ideas in the past detailing how it should be possible to detect a piracy "gone wrong" vs a murder hobo pretending to be a pirate so I believe it's possible.

  14. #74
    Originally Posted by Ozram View Post (Source)
    Yeah, even if the NPC murder won't incur the PF bounty, the exploit loophole should be closed there as well. I'll be testing the PF bounty mechanic in beta and look forward to posting opinions and results:
    https://youtu.be/OLQRp008Y5U
    Also, just curious.... why does the rebuy cost only get added if within the offending system? Does this mean the offending player can just go to the next system over, dock and swap to a sidewinder, sell the modules and weapons and then get his/herself killed and not pay that extra fines?
    That does seem to be an issue, I agree. Having to hop a system over to suicidewinder is a minor inconvenience and means the loophole still exists.

    I think the penalty should (lore wise) be a PF penalty and apply everywhere. There should be no way to escape it (other than not dying) - otherwise it will not be effective. Perhaps it should still expire as other bounties of similar magnitude do, perhaps not TBH I can't decide.

  15. #75
    Originally Posted by Shanaeri View Post (Source)
    NPC kills have a minor consequence on the game as opposed to player kills. Why should the consequences be the same?
    I a word/acronym "BGS". Player groups expend a fair bit of energy on this, and the effects are felt by other players, just not immediately. For example, a really good way to put a system into lockdown is to go on a murder spree.

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