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Thread: Why does HSL synthesis require manmade mats? Useless for exploration???

  1. #16
    Originally Posted by kofeyh View Post (Source)
    Frontier has made a choice that HSL rearm is essentially a bubble only mechanic
    Because you are stripped of all your manufactured materials the moment you leave the bubble and no other space in the galaxy is inhabited? ;D

    They made a deliberate choice that heat sink and chaff synthesis materials can only be obtained within inhabited space.
    I too don't think it's the right choice myself considering how it breaks with all the synthesis we already have.

    But I just don't like straight up improvements being portrayed as if they made everything worse (similar with repair limpets once more requiring extra module slots) or accusing anyone of being ignorant without knowing their thought process.

  2. #17
    Originally Posted by YinYin View Post (Source)
    Because you are stripped of all your manufactured materials the moment you leave the bubble and no other space in the galaxy is inhabited? ;D

    They made a deliberate choice that heat sink and chaff synthesis materials can only be obtained within inhabited space.
    I too don't think it's the right choice myself considering how it breaks with all the synthesis we already have.

    But I just don't like straight up improvements being portrayed as if they made everything worse (similar with repair limpets once more requiring extra module slots) or accusing anyone of being ignorant without knowing their thought process.
    As I just stated above - synthesis is going to be 1) taking time and 2) will be halted when ship is taking damage.

    These two facts make any argument against changing heatsink recipes moot.

  3. #18
    Originally Posted by Genar-Hofoen View Post (Source)
    These two facts make any argument against changing heatsink recipes moot.
    I'm not arguing against it.

  4. #19
    Given how rarely explorers use heatsinks and how many you can already carry, I think the practical effect of heatsink synthesis will be minimal and the recipe irrelevant.
    - I've used 1 in ~100kLY of travel. That's not an unusual amount. Plenty of threads from pre-2.4 explorers recommending that you leave the HSL off to save weight because you'll never use them.
    - The new 2.4 hyperdrive firmware update prevents drops between binary stars, which are the most common case for needing them anyway while exploring

    You can then get 5 extra refills with minimal pre-departure preparation (which is probably less work than getting a G5 FSD) at a cost of 1% of your material storage. It gives a bit of a choice - do you fit four HSLs before you leave, or do you fit just one and stock up on a few synthesis materials to save weight and jump further? Choices - especially ones with no single 'best' answer - are good!

    Exploration is already a "you don't need to compromise" lifestyle - the fuel scoops and AFMUs are (inexplicably) weightless, there's virtually no need to use the utility mounts or hardpoints for anything, and most core internals can be undersized and D-rated without penalty. As a consequence anything which even smells slightly of compromise seems to get extreme resistance from some explorers who are used to never having to make a decision - the DSS blueprints having a (minor) weight penalty, HSL synthesis requiring minimal pre-departure preparation and planning, some of the top 'lightweight' blueprints being on high-tier engineers rather than Farseer, limpet controllers requiring an internal slot, etc.
    Returning explorer? Need an escort to keep your data and other shinies safe? Contact Iridium Wing. Sol and Colonia.

  5. #20
    Heat syncs are generally used by the PVP players and explorers, as an explorer with plenty of ly under my belt I've never used one, arguably you could prepare for the trip (stock up mats in your magic pockets) and manufacture them when needed, unless of course they require destroyed ship spawned materials then I can see your point as an explorer wouldn't necessarily do combat even in the bubble.

    but equally a pvp player wouldn't go SRV'in for rocks - so if it is purchasable from markets then it would solve both players issues. (if explorers insist on using them or are required to do so with future game mechanics not yet present)

  6. #21
    Originally Posted by YinYin View Post (Source)
    I'm not arguing against it.
    Are you sure? I offered a simple solution. Basic uses ore. Premium, tech materials (as they do now). This is, ostensibly "why not have both?" as a very simplified solution. We have limited storage, suggesting people horde specific materials, or just stop exploring to go hike 15,000 LY to top up on tech mats, is a bit ignorant of that limit.

    Again, I just tend to think Frontier picked materials that made sense to them; they will care more that the mechanic works, less where the materials come from. We're focused on the outcomes; they are focused on the delivery. Two very different thought processes.

    I don't use heatsinks when exploring because the cost (weight) versus value has, frankly, an atrocious value over time curve. Arguably, post engineering they are redundant for exploration. It'd be nice if they could be less so, for those who actually prefer to have them, though.
    cmdr kofeyh | http://twitch.tv/kofeyh | "The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." – Citizen G'Kar

  7. #22
    Originally Posted by Ian Doncaster View Post (Source)
    Given how rarely explorers use heatsinks and how many you can already carry, I think the practical effect of heatsink synthesis will be minimal and the recipe irrelevant.
    - I've used 1 in ~100kLY of travel. That's not an unusual amount. Plenty of threads from pre-2.4 explorers recommending that you leave the HSL off to save weight because you'll never use them.
    - The new 2.4 hyperdrive firmware update prevents drops between binary stars, which are the most common case for needing them anyway while exploring

    You can then get 5 extra refills with minimal pre-departure preparation (which is probably less work than getting a G5 FSD) at a cost of 1% of your material storage. It gives a bit of a choice - do you fit four HSLs before you leave, or do you fit just one and stock up on a few synthesis materials to save weight and jump further? Choices - especially ones with no single 'best' answer - are good!

    Exploration is already a "you don't need to compromise" lifestyle - the fuel scoops and AFMUs are (inexplicably) weightless, there's virtually no need to use the utility mounts or hardpoints for anything, and most core internals can be undersized and D-rated without penalty. As a consequence anything which even smells slightly of compromise seems to get extreme resistance from some explorers who are used to never having to make a decision - the DSS blueprints having a (minor) weight penalty, HSL synthesis requiring minimal pre-departure preparation and planning, some of the top 'lightweight' blueprints being on high-tier engineers rather than Farseer, limpet controllers requiring an internal slot, etc.
    Whilst I appreciate that you've never had to use a heatsink during your travels, at least one other explorer has had to use them during theirs - myself, in fact. And a few times, at that.

    Besides which, there are occasions when heatsinks come in handy during exploration - for example, that rare landable planet very close to a star which would otherwise severely overheat your ship when you try to land on it for fun and giggles.

    This isn't pleading for less compromise - it's based on my personal anecdotal evidence, which is just as valid as your anecdotal evidence

  8. #23
    Originally Posted by GunnerBill View Post (Source)
    I'd hazard a guess that the exploration community have been crying out for HSL ammo to be added to Synthesis for quite a while.
    No, they probably not.

    Explorer can easily go for 10.000 jump without single use of heatsink, why he should bother about synthesis?

  9. #24
    Originally Posted by Andrej View Post (Source)
    No, they probably not.
    Yes, a few of us explorers have in fact been asking for heatsink synthesis for a long time now.

    Originally Posted by Andrej View Post (Source)
    Explorer can easily go for 10.000 jump without single use of heatsink, why he should bother about synthesis?
    That's a rather broad brush argument. There are numerous different explorers and we all explore numerous different areas of the galaxy - some are more likely to require the odd use of a heatsink than others. For example, you're more likely to encounter a rather toasty binary-or-more star system whilst exploring in the galactic core, just due to the sheer number of star systems there.

    I speak from experience here.

    Someone stated that with the recent 'firmware' update of the nav computers, being wedged in between a binary star system isn't possible. This also isn't true - even just exploring around the bubble (to test the new stuff I've been adding to my exploration application), I've already been placed into a few rather toasty locations straight after a hyperjump, for which a heatsink proved to be useful. The danger of overheating whilst exploring is still real and present, and I'm glad that's so.

    In other words, some explorers - like myself for example - would very much like to be able to synth more heatsinks if we needed to.

    And once again - with the coming change to synthesis; 1) taking more time, and 2) being halted when ship damage occurs - then this makes any argument against changing the heatsink recipe all but moot.

    Regards

  10. #25
    Originally Posted by kofeyh View Post (Source)
    Are you sure?
    Very sure. I was simply pointing out a few relevant things.

    Originally Posted by kofeyh View Post (Source)
    Basic uses ore. Premium, tech materials (as they do now).
    I like this so much I'd love to see manufactured materials introduced into more premium synthesis. It would be great if extra performance on a synthesised missile for example can only be achieved if you already have some required high grade components. Not just slapping some rare elements together.

    It's just that all synthesis we've had up till now was introduced together with element materials, before manufactured materials existed.

    Originally Posted by kofeyh View Post (Source)
    We have limited storage, suggesting people horde specific materials, or just stop exploring to go hike 15,000 LY to top up on tech mats, is a bit ignorant of that limit.
    Saying that either of that was suggested is ignorant of the history of explorers doing far more than that without heat sinks and the fact that these new options are still a huge improvement :p

    Ian has put this into better words.

    Originally Posted by kofeyh View Post (Source)
    Again, I just tend to think Frontier picked materials that made sense to them; they will care more that the mechanic works, less where the materials come from. We're focused on the outcomes; they are focused on the delivery. Two very different thought processes. ;)
    I tend to think the first delivery went through a very complicated chain before you got to see the beta implementation. It might have been the entire design team discussing the individual heat sink synthesis materials and where they can be obtained or it was just handed off to a single team member and not yet looked over again. It might also be that the current beta implementation is not at all what has been designed (limpet synthesis mistakenly used Tin instead of Nickel).

    Either way it wasn't just the entity "Frontier" :p

    Yes, the one who implements it likely first and foremost cares that it mechanically works. The design team likely also cares about the outcomes, but may not be able to have their heads everywhere.

    Originally Posted by Andrej View Post (Source)
    Explorer can easily go for 10.000 jump without single use of heatsink, why he should bother about synthesis?
    Because the feeling of self reliance, having very few resources you cannot obtain all by yourself, it's very important to the concept of deep space exploration. Every bit that requires you to return to civilisation to restock in case you run out is an uncomfortable tether.

    Originally Posted by Genar-Hofoen View Post (Source)
    For example, you're more likely to encounter a rather toasty binary-or-more star system whilst exploring in the galactic core, just due to the sheer number of star systems there.
    You've just given me a good reason to finally visit the core.

    And I've been setting up a faction and living in Colonia next door.

  11. #26
    Originally Posted by Genar-Hofoen View Post (Source)
    Yes, a few of us explorers have in fact been asking for heatsink synthesis for a long time now.



    That's a rather broad brush argument. There are numerous different explorers and we all explore numerous different areas of the galaxy - some are more likely to require the odd use of a heatsink than others. For example, you're more likely to encounter a rather toasty binary-or-more star system whilst exploring in the galactic core, just due to the sheer number of star systems there.

    I speak from experience here.

    Someone stated that with the recent 'firmware' update of the nav computers, being wedged in between a binary star system isn't possible. This also isn't true - even just exploring around the bubble (to test the new stuff I've been adding to my exploration application), I've already been placed into a few rather toasty locations straight after a hyperjump, for which a heatsink proved to be useful. The danger of overheating whilst exploring is still real and present, and I'm glad that's so.

    In other words, some explorers - like myself for example - would very much like to be able to synth more heatsinks if we needed to.

    And once again - with the coming change to synthesis; 1) taking more time, and 2) being halted when ship damage occurs - then this makes any argument against changing the heatsink recipe all but moot.

    Regards
    I have my share of exploration too, (more that 400.000 Ly traveled, 15.000 system visited) and I never ever fit a heatsink and never regret about it.

    If you need it, fine, you can fit 4 launchers and have 16 charges, how much more you really need?

  12. #27
    Originally Posted by Andrej View Post (Source)
    If you need it, fine, you can fit 4 launchers and have 16 charges, how much more you really need?
    Well, you hit the nail on the head, despite the rather sarcastic suggestion

    You only need one launcher, but be able to synthesize as many heatsinks as you need to replace the ones you lost - ergo, if heatsink synthesis is locked to manufactured materials, then you have basically told explorers to go stuff themselves if they eventually have ran out of stored manufactured materials, with no way of replenishing them other than returning to civilisation.

    It seems to me that the recipe for heatsink synthesis was designed to reduce being able to spam them primarily during the heat of battle. This was before the touted change to make synthesis take longer and to halt synthesis whilst the ship is being damaged.

    Once again I reiterate a point which you seem to be ignoring : if synthesis is going to take longer and be halted whilst the ship is taking damage, this now removes the initial reason for having heatsink recipes only use manufactured materials.

  13. #28
    Originally Posted by Andrej View Post (Source)
    If you need it, fine, you can fit 4 launchers and have 16 charges, how much more you really need?
    Well, now you can have just one launcher and materials for even more charges.

    But, the point is that these still tether the explorer to civilisation and cut into renewable material capacity (afmu/injection/...).

    For some this simply isn't what they wanted from heat sink synthesis.

    Originally Posted by Genar-Hofoen View Post (Source)
    It seems to me that the recipe for heatsink synthesis was designed to reduce being able to spam them primarily during the heat of battle. This was before the touted change to make synthesis take longer and to halt synthesis whilst the ship is being damaged.

    Once again I reiterate a point which you seem to be ignoring : if synthesis is going to take longer and be halted whilst the ship is taking damage, this now removes the initial reason for having heatsink recipes only use manufactured materials.
    Now I finally understand what the heck you mean by that.

    I really don't think the individual materials were picked to reduce being able to spam the synthesis. You can always farm up on anything.

  14. #29
    Originally Posted by YinYin View Post (Source)
    Well, now you can have just one launcher and materials for even more charges.

    But, the point is that these still tether the explorer to civilisation and cut into renewable material capacity (afmu/injection/...).

    For some this simply isn't what they wanted from heat sink synthesis.

    I honestly can`t understand this. They can easily collect materials for how many? 30-40 heatsink charges but they still complain? How much they really need?

    To me, this complains sound like: "I need unlimited charges or else this features completely useless". Doesn`t this sound a little too greedy?

  15. #30
    Originally Posted by Genar-Hofoen View Post (Source)
    told explorers to go stuff themselves
    Actually it is people like you that bring in the attitude "go stuff yourself" as any contrary opinion must be taken as an insult.


    Any situation where there is finite resources you will run out eventually, that is a go stuff yourself, that is a fact of life.

    Get over yourself, Heat sinks were a finite resource and you could choose how many you can carry.
    Now you can choose to carry as refills as you deem to, regardless of what the final recipe ends up being, is an improvement, not "a go stuff" yourself.

    Nothing is ever good enough for you and everything anyone ever offers is an insult


    Why have synthesis, why give the bloody thing charges, make them have unlimited charges and you would still call it a stuff you to explorers have they have to take the effort to use a utility slot and suffer cruelly the 1.3 tons it weights ruining your jump range

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