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Thread: Why does HSL synthesis require manmade mats? Useless for exploration???

  1. #46
    Why solve heatsink supply, when you can mostly remove their reason for being instead. I stopped using them for exploration a long time ago, I don't know many who still do. My guess is Frontier recognise they are all but redundant for exploration at this point, and so the focus on combat related materials for use instead.

    Which is all the more amusing, because in the bubble there is fast and easy access to unlimited rearm. It's called a station.

  2. #47
    Originally Posted by Factabulous View Post (Source)
    All types of player have access to basic mats, the current ones exclude explorers, as kofeyh said:




    and then


    restock mats at port? You'll have to explain how we get Basic Conductors or Heat Conduction Wiring from ports, I don't see how. And as for 'tons' of ports - depends where you go
    IMO there should be a material market that sells some materials and some black or rare markets that sell rare materials. There is absolutely no reason to force us doing tasks we don't want to do. For example wake scanning for long range FSD G5 rolls. "Fun and encouraging gameplayTM".
    Or scanning signal sources for imperial shieldings. It's stupid that we can not buy materials. I am not saying we should buy G5 materials with unlimited supply but think of the materials as with commodities. SOme come with insane supply as they are very common (such as iron or nickel which is commonly used to manufacture oxygen ... not) and rare materials as with rare goods whic hare only accessable at certain locations with a limited supply. Make them appropiate expensive similar to ship transfer cost. Analyze the data and adjust prices to match supply/demand by addign an algorythm that does just that and refreshes the prices every hour or so. And we are done but yeah .. this owuld take way too many dev resources, no?

    That said, it isn't like explorers can just harvest some basic conductors before they go into the dark and EVEN IN THE DARK there sometimes spawn signal sources which sometimes contain basic conductors. A single floating basic conductor provides 3 units for synth use which creates 12 (or 9 if unmodified) heat sinks at once. I believe that 9 heat sinks (plus the ones you already have on your ship) are enough to prevent your ship from overheating and even if it doesn't, a larger ship usually has an AFMU to compensate for the damage.
    I believe there isn't much of a deal to just start with 5-10 basic conductors before you leave the bubble.
    If it doesn't cover your heat sink consumption .. well .. your fault. Don't spawn them for proactive cooling. Use the mas an emergency, not as a failsafe. The deep black isn't exactly known as a resource rich environment.

    Originally Posted by Faybs View Post (Source)
    Wait, that doesn't make sense. If they can be used in many situations, then it follows that the recipe should be something that anyone can get. Otherwise you'd end up with something like needing to hand in 1M in combat vouchers to unlock Felicity Farseer, because combat pilots use long range FSDs.
    You think the opposite way I do: If it is usable in many situations/fields then you should do more/all of these fields to gather the needed resources as it comes with more value and flexibility. The most useful things should be the most expensive ones, not vice versa

  3. #48
    I find it so profoundly funny... If FD had made HS synthesis use raw materials like weapon synthesis, none of those who defend FD's currently planned implementation would be asking for it to be tied to manufactured materials. Like anyone else, they'd just be asking for it to be on a timer, like it should be.

    Seriously! At this point, why don't we make weapon synthesis also require manufactured materials?

    Why in the nine hells is it that some dude farming a combat zone for a CG, away from any meaningful civilisation, can synthesize tracking missiles that perform 30% better than factory-assembled ones using bloody rocks they found on a moon a few clicks away...

    But for some reason, the only people who'd really benefit from that Heatsink change (as in : it will do more for them than save them a refill trip to the nearest station) will have to gimp their material carrying capacity and "stockpile" because they need high-tech parts to build a hunk of heat-sucking metal?

    "If you're an explorer, you should just be prepared!"

    "If you stockpile those mats, you'll have hundreds of heatsinks!"

    "You don't even need heatsinks for exploration!"

    Do traders, passenger liners, bounty hunters, mission-runners, or anyone that dosen't do PVP ever need "preparation"? Nope : Only those who want to gain an edge over other commanders ever really need to be "prepared". Exploration is a purely PVE profession, right now, and none of the other PVE professions require any mind of preparation at all.

    Once again : let's make ammo synthesis require manufactured mats!
    [sarcasm]

    "Oh, what is it I hear? You're crying because you can't farm that CZ for your CG by endlessly refilling your corrosive MCs with iron and sulphur from the moon next door?... Well it's entirely your fault, dear, you just had to Come Prepared! I mean, if you had spent enough time grueling through the manufactured material grind, you'd have hundreds of refills that would save you hours of going back to that far, faraway base! Besides, you don't even need ammo weapons, you know? All you'll ever need is a good old array of lasers to kill any NPC! And if it's a player, get a full array of phasing pulse lasers! I've never used ammo weapons because I hate the non-manual reloading and I'm perfectly happy! So you see, using any ammo weapon is just a choice! If you don't want to have to stockpile, just don't use them! And if you think you need them, it means you should just Gid Gud."
    [/sarcasm]


    The "preparation" argument and others surrounding it are utterly meaningless. What really should matter is consistency and gameplay orientation. The real question that must be asked is wether we think explorers should be self-sufficient. The rest is hogwash. If we don't want them to be, then let's keep HS refill from manufactured mats. Let's also make it so limpet synthesis uses manufactured mats. And AFMU ammo refills, which can repair nearly anything in a ship, should as well come from manufactured materials. Let's also make it so all weapon refills use manufactured materials as well. If explorers, of all people, shouldn't be self-sufficient, then nobody should be either.

    Either that, or we make it so synthesis itself, instead of being some sort of a finite second-degree additional ammo-holder, exists primarily to allow commanders to be self-sufficient, as would be fitting for a spacefaring civilization where many venture forth alone into the black, and craft whatever they need by 3d-printing equipment from raw materials. If synthesis doesn't focus on quality of life and long-term self-sustainability, then all it will ever accomplish is bork over game balance. Nerf the synthesis time all the way downright to hell : it should have never been instant to begin with. Make it completely unusable in combat, it never should have allowed in-combat refills (Now please go fix TTK plz fdev before PVPers swarm me and stab my ship). But don't arbitrarily tie "some" synthesis recipes to in-bubble sources for no good reason while other, equally OP recipes just require a few pebbles.


    Or, how about... how about the wise space-man's compromise : make all synthesis recipes require only raw materials in basic tiers, and an increasing amount of manufactured ones in mid and high-tier synthesis! Apply this logic to all recipes except fsd boosts and maybe life-support, and we'll be in buisness. I see abso-screaming-lutely no reason for 3d-printed equipment from a ship's synthesis module to outmatch tech crafted at a station with the best materials available, unless the synthesizer actually assembles components from already-existing, factory-made, top-of-the-line technology.

  4. #49
    Originally Posted by GunnerBill View Post (Source)
    I'd hazard a guess that the exploration community have been crying out for HSL ammo to be added to Synthesis for quite a while.

    And yay in Beta 2.4 we have it added!!

    Except it needs exclusively man made materials to build them.

    I haven't had a chance to see if any other man-made mat's have been included elsewhere in Synthesis but it seems that HSL ammo is the only one. This makes no sense when the group who have most use for this new feature, the Explorers, can't use it and those for whom it'll make only a marginal improvement (I'm guessing at significant build times right?), the Fighters, will have unlimited access to the materials needed...


    Seems a tad unfair. Or did I miss something?
    Yet another kick in the exploration balls.

  5. #50
    Originally Posted by Andrej View Post (Source)
    No, they probably not.

    Explorer can easily go for 10.000 jump without single use of heatsink, why he should bother about synthesis?
    But I like exploring in my Rail Asp...

    S

    EDIT: Exploration has been a large part of my ED activities, and I have occasionally used heat sinks. I only every encountered the binary star issue once, but have gotten too close to neutron stars (on photo ops) as well as when trying to land on planets really close to their parent stars.

    Being able to use the wast amount of sh... materials we end up gathering would be great, so I am all for a change to simpler materials. Make the synthesis use a lot of common mats, rare natural mats (or generate heat, ha!), slow/stop it during combat, or whatever. But please make it replenishable in deep space.

  6. #51
    Originally Posted by Allchemyst View Post (Source)
    [sarcasm]

    "Oh, what is it I hear? You're crying because you can't farm that CZ for your CG by endlessly refilling your corrosive MCs with iron and sulphur from the moon next door?... Well it's entirely your fault, dear, you just had to Come Prepared! I mean, if you had spent enough time grueling through the manufactured material grind, you'd have hundreds of refills that would save you hours of going back to that far, faraway base! Besides, you don't even need ammo weapons, you know? All you'll ever need is a good old array of lasers to kill any NPC! And if it's a player, get a full array of phasing pulse lasers! I've never used ammo weapons because I hate the non-manual reloading and I'm perfectly happy! So you see, using any ammo weapon is just a choice! If you don't want to have to stockpile, just don't use them! And if you think you need them, it means you should just Gid Gud.[/sarcasm]
    Yours sarcasm is misplaced, it is actually a very very good suggestion. I am certain, than none of combat pilots complain if ammo syntheses would required material that can be obtained from destroyed enemy ships, not everyone like to spend hours in the SRV trying to obtain needed materials. And it make looting more useful for non-Horizons commanders.

  7. #52
    Originally Posted by Andrej View Post (Source)
    Yours sarcasm is misplaced, it is actually a very very good suggestion. I am certain, than none of combat pilots complain if ammo syntheses would required material that can be obtained from destroyed enemy ships, not everyone like to spend hours in the SRV trying to obtain needed materials. And it make looting more useful for non-Horizons commanders.
    yeah, only, for that to be as unfair to combat pilots as HS synth is to explorers, you'd probably only be able to get the materials needed for ammo synthesis through signal sources and circling systems in supercruise...

    Otherwise, combat pilots would be self-sufficient, and there's no reason they should be if explorers can't be either.

    Would you still be OK with that?

    Because that's the crux of the matter : It's asking players to get needed materials from activities that have nothing to do with what they want to do so their preferred activity can't sustain itself.

  8. #53
    Explorers in the past (and nowadays) spent month in preparation of their expedition. In fact, a good preparation the decisive factor of the expedition's success!

    We don't need to stock food or water in ED. Actually, there was not much to consider at all, before heading out into the void (just outfit some heatsinks and maybe an AFMU).
    Gathering some man-made material in preparation does at least add a little bit of the concept into the exploration game-play of ED. Why are so many explorers so upset about it?

  9. #54
    Originally Posted by Deggial View Post (Source)
    Explorers in the past (and nowadays) spent month in preparation of their expedition. In fact, a good preparation the decisive factor of the expedition's success!

    We don't need to stock food or water in ED. Actually, there was not much to consider at all, before heading out into the void (just outfit some heatsinks and maybe an AFMU).
    Gathering some man-made material in preparation does at least add a little bit of the concept into the exploration game-play of ED. Why are so many explorers so upset about it?
    1) Explorers in the past and nowadays don't matter... at all. 1300 years in the future, it makes perfect sense that a civilisation which mastered space flight would make its ships and technology as self-sufficient as possible. That includes a synthesis module available by default in all ships, and that includes the ability to replicate ammo (at least basic one - I'm against the premium ammo from raw mats) for all of the ship's components. And that also includes the future ability to treat food and water from gathered materials from habitable worlds encountered along the road. Building a 150M high-tech exploration ship is your preparation.

    2) It's riddiculously arbitrary. We can synthesize seeker missiles that deal 30% more damage than factory ones from moon-pebbles, but not basic lumps of heat-sucking metal. We can synthesize spare parts for our repair module that can patch almost every other module to perfection and do so more quickly than factory spare parts... from moon-pebbles, but Satine help us if we can synthesize basic lumps of heat-sucking metal without the help of high-tech knick-knacks.

    3) The arbitrary nature of it stems not from a desire to "add whatever to exploration". It stems from the fact that the feature, as implemented at first, would completely break PVP. FD had decided that they'd still allow it to do so, but that they'd make it harder to obtain materials, and the forums rebelled. Now, they are considering to add a timer and restrictions to synthesis, which means the material nerf is no longer necessary.

    4) If it had been introduced using nothing but raw materials, no one would have asked for it to be made like it is right now. We'd all be clamoring for a delay to be applied to synthesis, because it needs that badly, but having it use manufactured materials was in no way, shape or form a "needed or required feature".

    5) castrating a good QOL feature to arbitrarily make it less useful does not equal more gameplay depth. More exploration content and mechanics is what you're looking for. Ask for those. Don't ask for features to be sabotaged so they can act as a substitute for depth.

    6) See post 48.

  10. #55
    Originally Posted by Allchemyst View Post (Source)
    1) Explorers in the past and nowadays don't matter... at all. 1300 years in the future, it makes perfect sense that a civilisation which mastered space flight would make its ships and technology as self-sufficient as possible. That includes a synthesis module available by default in all ships, and that includes the ability to replicate ammo (at least basic one - I'm against the premium ammo from raw mats) for all of the ship's components. And that also includes the future ability to treat food and water from gathered materials from habitable worlds encountered along the road. Building a 150M high-tech exploration ship is your preparation.

    2) It's riddiculously arbitrary. We can synthesize seeker missiles that deal 30% more damage than factory ones from moon-pebbles, but not basic lumps of heat-sucking metal. We can synthesize spare parts for our repair module that can patch almost every other module to perfection and do so more quickly than factory spare parts... from moon-pebbles, but Satine help us if we can synthesize basic lumps of heat-sucking metal without the help of high-tech knick-knacks.

    3) The arbitrary nature of it stems not from a desire to "add whatever to exploration". It stems from the fact that the feature, as implemented at first, would completely break PVP. FD had decided that they'd still allow it to do so, but that they'd make it harder to obtain materials, and the forums rebelled. Now, they are considering to add a timer and restrictions to synthesis, which means the material nerf is no longer necessary.

    4) If it had been introduced using nothing but raw materials, no one would have asked for it to be made like it is right now. We'd all be clamoring for a delay to be applied to synthesis, because it needs that badly, but having it use manufactured materials was in no way, shape or form a "needed or required feature".

    5) castrating a good QOL feature to arbitrarily make it less useful does not equal more gameplay depth. More exploration content and mechanics is what you're looking for. Ask for those. Don't ask for features to be sabotaged so they can act as a substitute for depth.

    6) See post 48.
    Essentially this. I wish I could have summed up my thoughts this well in OP.

  11. #56
    Question to people how many heatsinks do you really need for exploration?

  12. #57
    Originally Posted by Lestat View Post (Source)
    Question to people how many heatsinks do you really need for exploration?

    "Greed is eternal."

    Ferengi Rules of Acquisition number 10


  13. #58
    Originally Posted by Lestat View Post (Source)
    Question to people how many heatsinks do you really need for exploration?
    The answer to your question is: zero.

    Been to Beagle Point and back with a ship that didn't have AFMU, heat sinks or anything, and even with hiccups here and there, I made it back in a reasonably good shape, everything 80%+. I was even able to drop by at Hawking's Gap to halp in the search for Dynasty mission bases.

    The only proper situation to use heatsink while exploring is a freak accident when you arrive to twin stars at an unfortunate angle. Since with 2.4 this cannot happen anymore (actually 2.3 made it close to impossible), only reckless people will need heat sinks. Why would you even want to systhesis more, espeically if you can stack up stuff in the bubble is beyond me. In other words this is pretty much a non-issue.

  14. #59
    Originally Posted by Lestat View Post (Source)
    Question to people how many heatsinks do you really need for exploration?
    Originally Posted by optimal_909 View Post (Source)
    The answer to your question is: zero.

    Been to Beagle Point and back with a ship that didn't have AFMU, heat sinks or anything, and even with hiccups here and there, I made it back in a reasonably good shape, everything 80%+. I was even able to drop by at Hawking's Gap to halp in the search for Dynasty mission bases.

    The only proper situation to use heatsink while exploring is a freak accident when you arrive to twin stars at an unfortunate angle. Since with 2.4 this cannot happen anymore (actually 2.3 made it close to impossible), only reckless people will need heat sinks. Why would you even want to systhesis more, espeically if you can stack up stuff in the bubble is beyond me. In other words this is pretty much a non-issue.
    Ah! The reactionary guard is up again!

    Since this has already been discussed at length in this thread, I'll direct you both to posts 48 and 54 on this very page. There's no need for me to repeat myself.

    There is no reason, mechanics-wise, consistency-wise, narrative-wise or balance-wise to keep HS and chaff synthesis on manufactured mats if the synth process is duly given the nerf it's been needing through a timer and making unusable in combat.


    Keeping the feature as first implemented does cause clear consitency and narrative issues. You may pretend, and be half-right about it, that it's not necessary to change it, but there's even fewer reasons to keep it that way.


    I'll reiterate my position : All Basic synthesis recipes from moon-pebbles, all normal/premium (barring fsd and life-support boost) use increasing amounts of manufactured components. There. Consistent, sensical, and better balanced than before.

  15. #60
    Surprises me that commanders have yet to switch on. Exploration is changing, the days of exploring with no weapons, light hulls, weak shields and no defences are ending. We are about to go to war with the Thargoids and if they are all over the Galaxy as we expect, then who will risk months worth of data to a weak fitted out ship.

    This is why many are racing back to home ports.

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