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Thread: Why does HSL synthesis require manmade mats? Useless for exploration???

  1. #61
    Originally Posted by Allchemyst View Post (Source)
    I'll reiterate my position : All Basic synthesis recipes from moon-pebbles, all normal/premium (barring fsd and life-support boost) use increasing amounts of manufactured components. There. Consistent, sensical, and better balanced than before.
    I agree with this, as this would solve the explorer's problem, but also introduce some variation in heat sink usage (for their non-exploration uses). The premiums may be extended purge time or something like that for example.

    On a side note though, why are explorers so crazy about heat sinks? I get that they are useful for landing on planets that are super close to stars (like SUPER close), but outside of that rather rare scenario would an afmu not suffice? Heat buildup causes damage, and over time that can cause a lot of problems on a long range exploration run. The situations in which a heat sink is REQUIRED to put an end to heat build up because the damage is too severe and quick that an afmu is not able to be used are exceedingly rare right? The binary star problem (which supposedly is fixed now anyway? But maybe not?) will drop you in a hot zone for how long...ten seconds at most? Maybe you instantly drop out of supercruise because you are too close to the star. Once out of supercruise your heat goes down until you try to boot up fsd again. Then you're looking at some heat buildup for 5-10 seconds.

    I guess my overall point is why not just outfit one or two afmus to take care of any incident heat damage you'll take? I guess that is all just playing devil's advocate though as I do honestly think requiring a manufactured material for a heat sink synthesis is pretty silly especially with the introduction of new restrictions on synthesis.

  2. #62
    Originally Posted by subhouse07 View Post (Source)
    I agree with this, as this would solve the explorer's problem, but also introduce some variation in heat sink usage (for their non-exploration uses). The premiums may be extended purge time or something like that for example.

    On a side note though, why are explorers so crazy about heat sinks? I get that they are useful for landing on planets that are super close to stars (like SUPER close), but outside of that rather rare scenario would an afmu not suffice? Heat buildup causes damage, and over time that can cause a lot of problems on a long range exploration run. The situations in which a heat sink is REQUIRED to put an end to heat build up because the damage is too severe and quick that an afmu is not able to be used are exceedingly rare right? The binary star problem (which supposedly is fixed now anyway? But maybe not?) will drop you in a hot zone for how long...ten seconds at most? Maybe you instantly drop out of supercruise because you are too close to the star. Once out of supercruise your heat goes down until you try to boot up fsd again. Then you're looking at some heat buildup for 5-10 seconds.

    I guess my overall point is why not just outfit one or two afmus to take care of any incident heat damage you'll take? I guess that is all just playing devil's advocate though as I do honestly think requiring a manufactured material for a heat sink synthesis is pretty silly especially with the introduction of new restrictions on synthesis.
    AFMUs don't repair power plants. Power plants are the No 1 necessary thing to go anywhere. Heat damages power plants.

    More improtantly, it's a total break in consistency. The same "you don't need them" argument could be thrown at people who wouldn't want ammo to be imposed the same limitations. Indeed, you can do with only lasers...

    But it's breaking the narrative, and narrowing gameplay.

  3. #63
    Originally Posted by Lestat View Post (Source)
    Question to people how many heatsinks do you really need for exploration?
    Question to people how many bullets do you really need to kill a person?

    --

    This is like asking how many times do I have to breathe per hour (could I not breathe less?) or why do I have to take a leak now and again, can't I just hold it in. I don't really care how many times. Nor should anyone else. How many times isn't important. Why, might be a bit more relevant.

    Basic as ores, normal and premium as tech mats would be reasonably consistent with existing synthesis. Presumably this was ignore at first due to concerns around PVP. Given there is now a synthesis interrupt, the original concerns are essentially voided.

    Why not have both. It's been suggested multiple times at this point; but folks just keep on parroting "but how many do you need?" like this actually means anything.
    cmdr kofeyh | http://twitch.tv/kofeyh | "The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." – Citizen G'Kar

  4. #64
    Originally Posted by kofeyh View Post (Source)
    Question to people how many bullets do you really need to kill a person?

    --

    This is like asking how many times do I have to breathe per hour (could I not breathe less?) or why do I have to take a leak now and again, can't I just hold it in. I don't really care how many times. Nor should anyone else. How many times isn't important. Why, might be a bit more relevant.

    Basic as ores, normal and premium as tech mats would be reasonably consistent with existing synthesis. Presumably this was ignore at first due to concerns around PVP. Given there is now a synthesis interrupt, the original concerns are essentially voided.

    Why not have both. It's been suggested multiple times at this point; but folks just keep on parroting "but how many do you need?" like this actually means anything.
    If I was the suspicious type, I'd be thinking that some folks just want to annoy the explorers and are deliberately being obtuse.

    Luckily, I'm not the suspicious type...

  5. #65
    Originally Posted by Lestat View Post (Source)
    Question to people how many heatsinks do you really need for exploration?
    Not one. I've never used heatsinks or AFMU for exploring and I'm elite on pc and 9% off exploration elite on xbox. Now for combat using SCBs I do use them. Sorry but you can spend days in the bubble not hitting one star, making 100s of jumps, seems a waste of a utility and power. Fair enough some people use them but the synthesis for them is fine and really a bonus either way. Explorers have managed so far with out the synthesis so surely this is a bonus anyway

  6. #66
    Originally Posted by CMDR MRMAURICE View Post (Source)
    Explorers have managed so far with out the synthesis so surely this is a bonus anyway
    Pvp'ers have managed so far without the synthesis so surely this is a bonus anyway. Swings both ways.

    So answer me this one :

    IF synthesis is going to take longer

    AND synthesis is going to get halted if ship takes damage

    THEN where's the problem in making basic heatsink synthesis out of non-manufactured materials?

  7. #67
    I have to say this ammo recipe is insane.
    Used to have ammo count of 10+1, which was reduced to balance pewpew.
    Bring back ammo count? No, synth using mats found only in the bubble, introduce bizarre extra rules for synth because; pewpew.
    Shoot rocks anywhere to build missiles.
    Goes to show how pewpew is the only thing that matters in this game.
    If I weren't so used to this nuttiness, I'd actually be upset, as it is, I simply shake my head, and become a little more disenfranchised.
    # apt-get purge engineers

    Why does the computer keep saying "Friendship Giant Sausage"?

  8. #68
    Originally Posted by CMDR MRMAURICE View Post (Source)
    Not one. I've never used heatsinks or AFMU for exploring and I'm elite on pc and 9% off exploration elite on xbox. Now for combat using SCBs I do use them. Sorry but you can spend days in the bubble not hitting one star, making 100s of jumps, seems a waste of a utility and power. Fair enough some people use them but the synthesis for them is fine and really a bonus either way. Explorers have managed so far with out the synthesis so surely this is a bonus anyway
    I agree with you 100%. You really had to be a bad explorer to use heatsinks or AFMU. I still 90% hull damage. I still have all my heatsinks and they are going to make it almost impossible get damage with binary stars.
    CMDR Vercingertorix

    Exploration Goal 6,000 to 10,000 systems.
    Current 4,000 system
    Hall 90% Power Plant 90%
    The risk is to pushing my ship to the limits with out destroying my self while exploring.

  9. #69
    Originally Posted by Lestat View Post (Source)
    I agree with you 100%. You really had to be a bad explorer to use heatsinks or AFMU. I still 90% hull damage. I still have all my heatsinks and they are going to make it almost impossible get damage with binary stars.
    Adress posts 48 and 54.

    What you're saying there is utterly pointless.

  10. #70
    Originally Posted by CMDR MRMAURICE View Post (Source)
    Not one. I've never used heatsinks or AFMU for exploring and I'm elite on pc and 9% off exploration elite on xbox. Now for combat using SCBs I do use them. Sorry but you can spend days in the bubble not hitting one star, making 100s of jumps, seems a waste of a utility and power. Fair enough some people use them but the synthesis for them is fine and really a bonus either way. Explorers have managed so far with out the synthesis so surely this is a bonus anyway
    Same here. I did a ~200KLy trip over 6 months without any AFMU or heatsinks, and came back with over 90% hull (due to some clumsy star fly-bys).

    I'm not sure I'm a fan of this heatsink synthesis / repair limpets , for two reasons.

    a) it makes things too easy. Without risk, everything becomes a bit bland.
    b) but more importantly it eliminates far more interesting ways of doing the same thing.

    What if "repair rats" were a thing, and you could call out ships to meet you at a certain system for repairs, or to stock up on AFMU ammo? Or perhaps you could land your ship on a planet, and repair (some) of the damage with welding beams from your SRV? Or maybe you could do in via EVA, if/when that's in the game? But now with a much easier, blander method, what's the point?

  11. #71
    Originally Posted by Genar-Hofoen View Post (Source)
    Pvp'ers have managed so far without the synthesis so surely this is a bonus anyway. Swings both ways.

    So answer me this one :

    IF synthesis is going to take longer

    AND synthesis is going to get halted if ship takes damage

    THEN where's the problem in making basic heatsink synthesis out of non-manufactured materials?

    Can we please to stop it already? I am getting really sick of all those whines

    If you allow me to sum up, in my opinion, corner of "not happy side" have only one valid argument which I can accept. And it is: infinitive heatsink charges can make explorers more adventures, so they can do some crazy thing like landing on planet that really really close to the star more often. And, of course, it is greed, I can understand that too

    In the opposite corner, most of the people that probably just don`t like when group of player try to force FD to fix thing that not really broken.


    My personal opinion, current heatsink synthesis make it more accessible to much wider player group, I sure that gather basic material in space it less grindy that looking for it on planet surface. Besides, don`t forget non-Horizonts commanders, requirement of planet materials make impossible to them use heatsink synthesis (I know that mining provide some of materials, but not all of them, and it really boring to force someone to do it)

    Ether way, it is not our decision to change it, I only hope that FD don`t waste time and recourse on this one, they have much more important things to do.

  12. #72
    Originally Posted by Lestat View Post (Source)
    Question to people how many heatsinks do you really need for exploration?
    I have had to use 3 or 4 in over a million LY of exploration. Landing close to a star in multi star systems is a thing (still) and heatsinks can be your life saver. Many people have never used one or needed them during exploration, but the reality is that you will never need one. Right up until that point when you do! ;-)

  13. #73
    People are losing sight of the thing. It isn't how much you use of a thing, it's is the thing relevant. Have you bright sparks figured out yet that half the reason danger is being sucked out of exploring is because half the tools in the chest are not reusable.

    Yes I can fly across most of the galaxy and not hit anything and take sodd all damage. But then I have to fly on eggshells, never land and pretend I am a tourist because if I want to get down and dirty with a planet, or check something out I have to weight that against risk to ship.

    It's easy to go anywhere at all with limited damage. It's also boring as hell to do so. So rather than having a proverbial completion over who can go the most distance without damage, or ask pointless questions like "just how many times do you need to take a leak every day‽" maybe think about how easily rearmed HSL would remove the need to change the jump in point.

    How being able to repaire pretty much anything means more opportunities for fun and adventure and excitement. All the things being sucked out of exploration by puritanical short-sighted people being hung up about how every mechanic should be redacted and ground down to just utter soulless crap because somehow this improves everything.

    Maybe try looking at what things HSL rearm allow for, than inventing new ways to remove crap from the game. Try. You might find it refreshing.
    cmdr kofeyh | http://twitch.tv/kofeyh | "The universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: Energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." – Citizen G'Kar

  14. #74
    Originally Posted by kofeyh View Post (Source)
    People are losing sight of the thing. It isn't how much you use of a thing, it's is the thing relevant. Have you bright sparks figured out yet that half the reason danger is being sucked out of exploring is because half the tools in the chest are not reusable.

    Yes I can fly across most of the galaxy and not hit anything and take sodd all damage. But then I have to fly on eggshells, never land and pretend I am a tourist because if I want to get down and dirty with a planet, or check something out I have to weight that against risk to ship.

    It's easy to go anywhere at all with limited damage. It's also boring as hell to do so. So rather than having a proverbial completion over who can go the most distance without damage, or ask pointless questions like "just how many times do you need to take a leak every day‽" maybe think about how easily rearmed HSL would remove the need to change the jump in point.

    How being able to repaire pretty much anything means more opportunities for fun and adventure and excitement. All the things being sucked out of exploration by puritanical short-sighted people being hung up about how every mechanic should be redacted and ground down to just utter soulless crap because somehow this improves everything.

    Maybe try looking at what things HSL rearm allow for, than inventing new ways to remove crap from the game. Try. You might find it refreshing.
    Hell to the bloody * yes!

    That's been on the tip of my tongue for far too long. Fewer tools = fewer opportunities. Better tools = more opportunities.

    Once again, restricting quality of life and self-sufficience for all dosen't result in a more interesting game, but ultimately lowers FD's ulterior ability to build actual interesting challenges in it.

    The only clear consequence of that course of action is an even more watered-down game in the long run.


    For those who aren't grasping the concept yet :

    The moment explorers have the tools to reliably use Heatsinks, then FD will have the ability to implement challenges that require their use. ALL of exploration's mechanics are placeholders.

    You can't pretend "explorers" don't need them, because exploration as a role was never expanded properly ; it has no depth because they haven't started digging the foundations.


    So instead of all that condescending self-righteousness we see drooling about, how about we change course towards an approach that's more open to the future of the game and what it can become? How about we settle for the option that makes the most sense in-universe, is the most consistent with all the other mechanics, brings the most quality fo life to everyone, and gives FD the best opportunities to challenge us down the road?

  15. #75
    Originally Posted by kofeyh View Post (Source)
    People are losing sight of the thing. It isn't how much you use of a thing, it's is the thing relevant. Have you bright sparks figured out yet that half the reason danger is being sucked out of exploring is because half the tools in the chest are not reusable.

    Yes I can fly across most of the galaxy and not hit anything and take sodd all damage. But then I have to fly on eggshells, never land and pretend I am a tourist because if I want to get down and dirty with a planet, or check something out I have to weight that against risk to ship.

    It's easy to go anywhere at all with limited damage. It's also boring as hell to do so. So rather than having a proverbial completion over who can go the most distance without damage, or ask pointless questions like "just how many times do you need to take a leak every day‽" maybe think about how easily rearmed HSL would remove the need to change the jump in point.

    How being able to repaire pretty much anything means more opportunities for fun and adventure and excitement. All the things being sucked out of exploration by puritanical short-sighted people being hung up about how every mechanic should be redacted and ground down to just utter soulless crap because somehow this improves everything.

    Maybe try looking at what things HSL rearm allow for, than inventing new ways to remove crap from the game. Try. You might find it refreshing.
    Yes arrival points would not have to be nerfed to prevent heat damage, exploration would have more actual danger, but the prize is discovering systems of greater interest.

    Or for a higher level of scan you have to drop right down into the corona to get sample data... RISK vs REWARD.

    virtual +1 Kofeyh.

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