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Thread: Why does HSL synthesis require manmade mats? Useless for exploration???

  1. #256
    Originally Posted by Allchemyst View Post (Source)
    .................

    I don't think I need to explain to you the meaning of opportunistic self-contradiction.

    ...........
    You probably do for that poster, who has had me on the verge of posting my favourite "troll gif" several times already.

  2. #257
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commanders!

    Apologies, haven't had time to read all of this thread.

    Heat sink synthesis deliberately uses materials from inhabited space. The concept is that you will need to think about some materials before you set off, that you are never completely self-sufficient in all ways when exploring.
    Terrible decision not surprised in the slightest.
    twitter@solehunt3r
    CEO - Crazy Space People
    Director - Pandemic Horde

  3. #258
    Originally Posted by Sole Hunter View Post (Source)
    Terrible decision not surprised in the slightest.
    I actually am very surprised. When you look at everything FD has done with Elite prior to the Engineers, their track record is amazing. Procedural generation + Multiplayer is a living nightmare for game development.

    But it does indeed feel like something development-wise is getting increasingly disorganized. And increasingly illogical. And I mean, concerningly illogical.

    They recognized that FSD-ing between two red giants was an arbitrarily dangerous event - That's why they went out of their way to entirely remove that possibility with this patch. The sad part is that FD could have kept the threat-and-thrill element of such events - and offered us to mitigate it with readily available HS synth, but instead decided to neuter the tool and remove the threat.

    In the end, exploration was made even less exciting. That's the worst part, IMO. One of the very few somewhat surprising / thrilling / dangerous parts of exploration is just entirely gone now.

    And for what? So that we no longer need Heat Sinks at all for exploration? Without the one-in-a-hundred dual-star jump encounter, Heatsinks are indeed useless for explorers... So can anyone explain to me why putting a manufactured mats requirement on a now useless item was in any way a means to prevent explorers from being self-sufficient? If self-sufficience is not desirable, why are AFMU refills and limpet synthesis available from moon-pebbles? This makes no sense. It cannot be the reason for such a decision.

    So there's the other side of it... Combat balance. In beta 1, a commander who ground their way to get hundreds of mats could essentially run a 0% heat ship 100% of the time. It's like FD thought we'd feel remorse for having to kill harmless trading ships for refills and that would somehow balance the sheer overpoweredness of it... Which is insane. They could not ignore how eagerly some players would fill their material storage to the brim, and that manufactured mats would never constitute a proper balance factor. So it's not that either. I'd much rater believe they weren't done coding the synth timers or whatever. In the end, they did the right thing, and added a timer on synthesis, but they've deicided to keep manufactured mats as a requirement regardless...

    But why?

    HS mats can no longer be a balance factor for exploration self-sufficience, they don't matter for combat balance either, while other modules that are absolutely crucial to long-distance exploration are absolutely self-sufficient. All throughout, HS and chaff recipes seem to be virulently inconsistent just for the sake of it : They don't make sense mechanically because much more complex items can be synthesized from simpler materials, which in turn makes them inconsistent and ultimately unimmersive. Equally unimmersive is the fact that our ships synth modules can create items that are above factory-quality from bloody moon-pebbles will all other types of items. For explorers, this state of affairs led to the actual loss of two gameplay elements : Heatsinks themselves, and dual-star jumps, leading to worse gameplay overall.


    I mean... There is litterally nothing consistent about FD's decisions on this matter. It's like every single step was a non-sequitur. Perhaps I'm missing something... I hope I am.


    Seriously FD, please... Just make all basic (plus all jump boost and life-support) synth recipes available from rocks, and all medium and advanced ones require increasingly rare manufactured mats... Everybody's problems would be fixed, everything would be consistent, and since the current state of affairs fixes nothing at all, it would be a 100% improvement to the game!

  4. #259
    Originally Posted by Allchemyst View Post (Source)
    I actually am very surprised. When you look at everything FD has done with Elite prior to the Engineers, their track record is amazing. Procedural generation + Multiplayer is a living nightmare for game development.

    But it does indeed feel like something development-wise is getting increasingly disorganized. And increasingly illogical. And I mean, concerningly illogical.

    They recognized that FSD-ing between two red giants was an arbitrarily dangerous event - That's why they went out of their way to entirely remove that possibility with this patch. The sad part is that FD could have kept the threat-and-thrill element of such events - and offered us to mitigate it with readily available HS synth, but instead decided to neuter the tool and remove the threat.

    In the end, exploration was made even less exciting. That's the worst part, IMO. One of the very few somewhat surprising / thrilling / dangerous parts of exploration is just entirely gone now.

    And for what? So that we no longer need Heat Sinks at all for exploration? Without the one-in-a-hundred dual-star jump encounter, Heatsinks are indeed useless for explorers... So can anyone explain to me why putting a manufactured mats requirement on a now useless item was in any way a means to prevent explorers from being self-sufficient? If self-sufficience is not desirable, why are AFMU refills and limpet synthesis available from moon-pebbles? This makes no sense. It cannot be the reason for such a decision.

    So there's the other side of it... Combat balance. In beta 1, a commander who ground their way to get hundreds of mats could essentially run a 0% heat ship 100% of the time. It's like FD thought we'd feel remorse for having to kill harmless trading ships for refills and that would somehow balance the sheer overpoweredness of it... Which is insane. They could not ignore how eagerly some players would fill their material storage to the brim, and that manufactured mats would never constitute a proper balance factor. So it's not that either. I'd much rater believe they weren't done coding the synth timers or whatever. In the end, they did the right thing, and added a timer on synthesis, but they've deicided to keep manufactured mats as a requirement regardless...

    But why?

    HS mats can no longer be a balance factor for exploration self-sufficience, they don't matter for combat balance either, while other modules that are absolutely crucial to long-distance exploration are absolutely self-sufficient. All throughout, HS and chaff recipes seem to be virulently inconsistent just for the sake of it : They don't make sense mechanically because much more complex items can be synthesized from simpler materials, which in turn makes them inconsistent and ultimately unimmersive. Equally unimmersive is the fact that our ships synth modules can create items that are above factory-quality from bloody moon-pebbles will all other types of items. For explorers, this state of affairs led to the actual loss of two gameplay elements : Heatsinks themselves, and dual-star jumps, leading to worse gameplay overall.


    I mean... There is litterally nothing consistent about FD's decisions on this matter. It's like every single step was a non-sequitur. Perhaps I'm missing something... I hope I am.


    Seriously FD, please... Just make all basic (plus all jump boost and life-support) synth recipes available from rocks, and all medium and advanced ones require increasingly rare manufactured mats... Everybody's problems would be fixed, everything would be consistent, and since the current state of affairs fixes nothing at all, it would be a 100% improvement to the game!
    Procedural generation has been out there for a long time, it's actually easy to do which is why they decided to opt for the latter. I agree with you they are incredibly inconsistent. However, I would argue that the new powerplay crime rule is pretty good but so far it's the only decent change I've seen in 2.4. The most impressive part is how it took them 6 months to release this abortion of a patch.
    twitter@solehunt3r
    CEO - Crazy Space People
    Director - Pandemic Horde

  5. #260
    Originally Posted by Sole Hunter View Post (Source)
    Procedural generation has been out there for a long time, it's actually easy to do which is why they decided to opt for the latter. I agree with you they are incredibly inconsistent. However, I would argue that the new powerplay crime rule is pretty good but so far it's the only decent change I've seen in 2.4. The most impressive part is how it took them 6 months to release this abortion of a patch.
    I'd say procedural generation is easy to do nowadays, you're right about that, but what I mean is that it's difficult to do something with it. Populating a world with quests, story, characters, etc - with actual content - is much harder when you can't hand-place stuff.

    I'll agree also that PP stuff is going well indeed, and the boost to navigation is great too - and is my actual favorite this patch.

    This patch, until we know how large and deep the Tharg content is, my only real beef is synthesis. And how they're going forward with story content rather than ironing out basic gameplay for everything but combat.

    That patch better be so deep I can marry one a' those Aliens tho...

  6. #261
    And for what? So that we no longer need Heat Sinks at all for exploration? Without the one-in-a-hundred dual-star jump encounter, Heatsinks are indeed useless for explorers...
    I disagree. When pushing to get to a certain waypoint "before bed", I'll take my DBX in as close to the star to fuel scoop as possible to fully fuel up on each jump. If you're tired or the wife / kid / cat distracts you at this crucial moment, BANG, it's normal space for you! Spooling up the FSD while sitting right next to a very hot star is where I've found heatsinks to be my personal lifesaver. I'll not be leaving home without them

  7. #262
    Originally Posted by Old Duck View Post (Source)
    I disagree. When pushing to get to a certain waypoint "before bed", I'll take my DBX in as close to the star to fuel scoop as possible to fully fuel up on each jump. If you're tired or the wife / kid / cat distracts you at this crucial moment, BANG, it's normal space for you! Spooling up the FSD while sitting right next to a very hot star is where I've found heatsinks to be my personal lifesaver. I'll not be leaving home without them
    My DBX doesn't get close to getting hot on full fuel scooping. I have never taken Heatsinks with me on a trip with my DBX because it stays so cool even when at maximum fuel scooping rate. And yes I jump when still in fuel scoop range too without damage. Just needs good timing. Oh, and I have a cat, children and nearly wife (been together for over 20 years but not married).

    If you are getting too hot and getting heat damage in your DBX, then I am sorry but you are doing something seriously wrong.

  8. #263
    Originally Posted by Max Factor View Post (Source)
    My DBX doesn't get close to getting hot on full fuel scooping. I have never taken Heatsinks with me on a trip with my DBX because it stays so cool even when at maximum fuel scooping rate. And yes I jump when still in fuel scoop range too without damage. Just needs good timing. Oh, and I have a cat, children and nearly wife (been together for over 20 years but not married).

    If you are getting too hot and getting heat damage in your DBX, then I am sorry but you are doing something seriously wrong.
    Perhaps he's not as "gud" a pilot as you. Does that make his experience any less valid?
    Cmdr Shivvy
    Pilots' Federation Academy, Class of '84
    More of my posts can be found at Facebook, Google+,Mastodon, Tumblr, Twitter, and Wordpress

  9. #264
    Originally Posted by Siobhan View Post (Source)
    Perhaps he's not as "gud" a pilot as you. Does that make his experience any less valid?
    It's not about being good. I am not a good pilot, but to overheat in a DBX is so difficult to do, I can't understand it.

    Anyway, back to the point. Nothing is stopping people from stocking heatsinks like they usually do. The point is for having to use synthsis materials which you can only get in the bubble is so that explorers are not self sufficient.

    But as the need for heat sinks are now massively reduced, the odds of you needing heatsinks in the first place are virtually zero (not enitirely zero, but any need will be self inflicted), you probably wouldn't need to use synthesis anyway to make new ones as the normal stock should be sufficient.

    It's like FDev have gone, lets remove any risk what so ever, and also remove any kind of extra gameplay (searching for material to restock your heatsinks) that could come from heatsink sysnthesis while exploring.

    It makes no sense. Instead of giving us reasons to land on planets and search out materials, they take away any need for the sysnthesis in the first place.

  10. #265
    Perhaps you're right, but it's obvious from other posts in the thread that some people do overheat and do need sinks.

    I don't know if it's due to error, badly fitted ships or just bad luck. The point is that just because you don't need them is irrelevant to the discussion.

    It all boils down to the simple point that an item which would be incredibly useful to explorers requires material gathered primarily from combat, whereas combat reloads can be made cheaply from rocks, no matter whether its a simple rail gun slug or a seeker missile.

    If that's not a pro combat bias, then nothing is.

    Some have stated this emphasis is recent. I ask if it lines up with Brooks moving to the new franchise...
    Cmdr Shivvy
    Pilots' Federation Academy, Class of '84
    More of my posts can be found at Facebook, Google+,Mastodon, Tumblr, Twitter, and Wordpress

  11. #266
    Originally Posted by Siobhan View Post (Source)
    Perhaps you're right, but it's obvious from other posts in the thread that some people do overheat and do need sinks.

    I don't know if it's due to error, badly fitted ships or just bad luck. The point is that just because you don't need them is irrelevant to the discussion.

    It all boils down to the simple point that an item which would be incredibly useful to explorers requires material gathered primarily from combat, whereas combat reloads can be made cheaply from rocks, no matter whether its a simple rail gun slug or a seeker missile.

    If that's not a pro combat bias, then nothing is.

    Some have stated this emphasis is recent. I ask if it lines up with Brooks moving to the new franchise...
    Well they do at the moment because there are risks like jumping to a binary, but that is being taken away completely. So the only way to get heat damage is by a self inficted accident by not paying attention. And you can still fit heat sinks, so there shouldn't be any major issues.

    And yes I agree with you, the issue is that we probably need to do combat to get these materials. None of it makes sense to me and there seems to be no logic behind the reasoning. I hate the new jump in to a binary mechanic and I hate the materials used for heat sink synthesis.

    What they need to do is keep the jump in mechanic as it is in 2.3, so there is at least a little bit of risk, and change the synthesis to something more logical.

  12. #267
    Originally Posted by Max Factor View Post (Source)
    It's not about being good. I am not a good pilot, but to overheat in a DBX is so difficult to do, I can't understand it.
    If you forget to throttle down after a jump, it's remarkably easy I find.

    Originally Posted by Max Factor View Post (Source)
    Anyway, back to the point. Nothing is stopping people from stocking heatsinks like they usually do. The point is for having to use synthsis materials which you can only get in the bubble is so that explorers are not self sufficient.

    But as the need for heat sinks are now massively reduced, the odds of you needing heatsinks in the first place are virtually zero (not enitirely zero, but any need will be self inflicted), you probably wouldn't need to use synthesis anyway to make new ones as the normal stock should be sufficient.

    It's like FDev have gone, lets remove any risk what so ever, and also remove any kind of extra gameplay (searching for material to restock your heatsinks) that could come from heatsink sysnthesis while exploring.

    It makes no sense. Instead of giving us reasons to land on planets and search out materials, they take away any need for the sysnthesis in the first place.
    I agree with this. One of the best E: D playsessions I've ever had (in over 1000 hrs) was on my alt, with an un-engineered Asp Explorer. I took on a passenger mission which was up near the top of the galaxy... with a few jumps that were beyond my jump range. I had to spend time scanning & searching planets on the way to find Arsenic and other mats so I could synthesise jumponium when I needed it. I felt like a proper explorer when I managed to do it and reach my target (and back again).

    Synthesis in the field is fun. Gathering mats to deliver to engineers is much less so. So I don't really get why FD would try and nobble one aspect of it. It makes little sense to me.

  13. #268
    Originally Posted by Max Factor View Post (Source)
    If you are getting too hot and getting heat damage in your DBX, then I am sorry but you are doing something seriously wrong.
    You make it sound like I'm idiot who flies straight into the sun on every jump. No... But neither am I a perfect pilot, living in a perfect world with my perfect Stepford wife and Stepford cat who would never consider jumping into my lap (wife or cat, LOL) as I'm skimming the surface of a star. If you get knocked out of SC too close to a hot star, the heat is going to rise fast as you spool up the FSD, even in a DBX. I like having heatsinks for this rare occasion. If you don't, fine, but it's kinda selfish to insist nobody should need to carry heatsinks just because you don't need them.

  14. #269
    Originally Posted by Old Duck View Post (Source)
    You make it sound like I'm idiot who flies straight into the sun on every jump. No... But neither am I a perfect pilot, living in a perfect world with my perfect Stepford wife and Stepford cat who would never consider jumping into my lap (wife or cat, LOL) as I'm skimming the surface of a star. If you get knocked out of SC too close to a hot star, the heat is going to rise fast as you spool up the FSD, even in a DBX. I like having heatsinks for this rare occasion. If you don't, fine, but it's kinda selfish to insist nobody should need to carry heatsinks just because you don't need them.
    Sorry, I didn't mean it to sound like that. It's just that the DBX (my main exploration ship as well) is probably the most thermal efficient ship in the game. I am not a good pilot either, I suck at combat, but fuel scooping in a DBX is extremly easy and you shouldnt be near the the area where you get knocked out of supercruise.

    I am not saying don't use heatsinks or don't stock them, you can still do that as it is, but don't get rid of any risk within the game when it comes to exploring, like the new jump mechanic which dumps you some distance away from a close binary. All that does is make the need for heatsinks virtually zero apart from the odd exception as you have stated. The likelyhood of you needing synthesis has been massively reduced, therefore making a mockery for Sandro's comment about the use of materials from the bubble for heat sink synethsis and and being self sufficient.

  15. #270
    Originally Posted by Max Factor View Post (Source)
    Sorry, I didn't mean it to sound like that.
    Okay, we're cool then.

    Originally Posted by Max Factor View Post (Source)
    I am not saying don't use heatsinks or don't stock them, you can still do that as it is, but don't get rid of any risk within the game when it comes to exploring, like the new jump mechanic which dumps you some distance away from a close binary.
    I'm with you on this - I'm a bit nervous about how FDev implements this new "safe distance" mechanic, because if we are consistently being dropped a considerable distance from stars (binary or not as I believe ObsidianAnt experienced in one of his videos), this will add considerable time to long journeys. If this ends up being the case, I'll likely just skip fueling up until the tank is almost empty, then travel to a star and fill the empty tank while petting previously-mentioned cat, LOL.

    I have a feeling the Buckyball racers are also concerned about the upcoming "far from the star" feature.

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