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Thread: Serious Question, Why cant we name and shame ?

  1. #271
    Originally Posted by Aldaris View Post (Source)
    And not everyone is you, and you are incredibly ignorant of other people's mental states.
    Clearly not - some people have very strong mental states. Others are very weak, and others still split the difference and cover the whole spectrum.

    You're incredibly ignorant of the depth of my knowledge, rife with intolerance for anyone who does not share your pastel-colored Disney Worldview, but I'm not going to hold that against you here. I was trying to have a civil, if not extremely blunt discourse about a genuine social issue that is routinely aggravated though routine game play, and did not loose the personal affronts because my position was so weak and untenable, now did I?

    So let's keep to the topic and discuss the topic, not the person.

  2. #272
    Originally Posted by IndigoWyrd View Post (Source)
    I was trying to have a civil, if not extremely blunt discourse about a genuine social issue that is routinely aggravated though routine game play, and did not loose the personal affronts because my position was so weak and untenable, now did I?
    Civil, if not extremely blunt? What on earth are you talking about?

    Originally Posted by IndigoWyrd View Post (Source)
    ...rife with intolerance for anyone who does not share your pastel-colored Disney Worldview...
    Whereas you seem quite intolerant of anyone that does not share your particular brand of bitter misanthropy. But I won't hold that against you here.

  3. #273
    Originally Posted by EvE4evah View Post (Source)
    Indigo, respectfully:

    Mittani is a legendary figure who pushed a guy into almost suicide (IRL) with a name&shaming campaign within his huge alliance, Goonswarm, in EvE. Guy got persecuted with "kill yourself" messages said in many different ways, by literally hundreds of people.

    How a person can get personal info like email addresses of players? Dunno… ever heard of hacking? It's not that hard for people who study net coding, computer science and so on. It's actually a more or less common thing in MMOs, people getting personal info of people because of game drama. A little search goes a long way. Server firewalls are hard, but never perfect. No net security is perfect. Specially in a p2p architecture, I imagine it's not that hard to learn a user's IP.

    Real life harassing motivated by game drama is a thing, it's here to stay, and we should be grateful it's still uncommon in ED. Why incentivize it with name&shame advocating?

    Anyway, thanks for reading, I wish you well and I wait a nice answer, ok?
    That was after my time - I quit Eve back when Goonswarm was still Goonfleet - just after the merger with Band of Brothers, that brought nearly all of Eve's resources under control of the the Goonfleet, who in turned ransomed those resources back to... whoever.. I got my piece of that ransom, and left the game permanently after the check cleared. Never followed anything to do with it after, never cared. Actually hated it from the word go. Beyond that, bigger picture, I take great pains to avoid as much drama as I can - including this Mittani fellow I've still never heard of before this conversation.

    I have heard of hacking - and it's actually a lot less common than people realize. 98% of the time these so-called "hacks" are not hacks at all, but scams, some more clever than others, but all designed to do the exact same thing - trick someone into giving up their personal information - e-mail addresses and passwords, game account user names and passwords - some times it is just for the purpose of creating validated e-mail lists, that can be sold to less-than-reputable marketing companies, and next thing you know, your inbox is full of ads for ladies attire, knock-off brand-name items, little blue pills - you name it.

    Other times they are more sinister in nature, such as defrauding someone of their banking information, credit card information, physical addresses - or worse, used to later spread malicious software, such as cryptographic "ransom-ware".

    And your IP address is pretty worthless to anyone - not only are 99% of peoples' IP addresses dynamic - meaning they change every so often, but even the most basic ISP Router/Modem combo at least performs Network Address Translation (NAT), which in turn means the majority of people out there all have the same internal IP address - 192.168.0.something or 192.168.1.something.
    And these are pretty useless addresses for anyone trying to access you from the outside world. Additionally, most ISP modem/router combos do not accept SNMP, and by default have Remote Management turned off, so there's really very little anyone can actually do with your external (ISP-assigned and usually dynamic) IP address anyways. And to top that all off, IP Geolocation is really spotty at best. If you were to try to geo-locate my IP address, you'd wind up about 4 hours north-east of me, and in the wrong state - and that's even if it resolves at all, as my particular IP block is in a large black-hole segment my ISP has never been able to figure out - so they can't even find me correctly.

    One of the absolute most common avenues of these pseudo-hacks is 3rd party software - game trainers, bots, or add-ons that often require some kind of association with your game account to function. As a general rule, I do not run any 3rd party applications with anything I play online, and I've never had a problem. I don't even run anti-virus software - haven't since early 2000 and never had a problem either. I don't open things I don't know where they came from, don't poke around the trashy parts of the internet, and know that nothing worth having is ever free, especially online.

    And just to lend a little credence to my position on this stuff - I've been a network admin for almost 30 years, providing administration and support to more than 40,000 users across a wide range of businesses, from bill collectors to medical providers to state and federal agencies - so I've learned a good few things over the years.

    Originally Posted by raymondo the great View Post (Source)
    Yup I agree

    I punch you in your face and break your nose it's your fault for not blocking the punch - a simple self defence class will teach you that, toughening up - only wimps bleed! And lets face it, if you get punched you must have done something to deserve it! Or heck why did you leave your house in the first place! No one needs to leave their house really, we have the net, deliveries so why do it?

    See how this works?

    Got to love a bit of victim blaming. You know who the only people who engage in victim blaming are? The bullies and the predators....
    Actually no, I don't see how this works, and no one is victim-blaming here. But I don't disagree either - a self-defense course is good for pretty much everybody anyways - for the confidence-building if nothing else. Or are you going to some-how try to fluffy-bunny this into "no one needs self-confidence" and call it "victim blaming"? I really have to step away from this part of this... There is no force in the universe than will ever change my position on this so-called "victim-blaming", and I've already had to officially defend myself once. I don't want to have to do it again.

    Originally Posted by metascrawl View Post (Source)
    If you really wanted survival of the fittest, you wouldn't warn anyone about allergens in food at all and simply let them die in childhood to breed such allergies out of the population. I'm sure you don't want that. Standardised allergen information may occasionally lead to silly results like in your example, but it's a damn sight better than the alternative. Same goes for the rest of health and safety legislation.

    By the way, all of this isn't really relevant to the subject of the thread. Unless of course, you are determined to find evidence everywhere that society is 'circling the drain', as another person in this thread has put it. What a grim outlook on life.
    How about the giant red warning label on the Indoor Vacuum Cleaner that specifically states "Electrical Shock Hazard - For Indoor Use Only"? Why, because some idiot took their indoor vacuum outside, tried to vacuum up rain water, got shocked, sued, won an out-of-court settlement, and poof - Idiot Labels.

    Or the "Contents are HOT" label on the cup of HOT COFFEE, because some other idiot dumped it in her lap, scalded herself, sued, rinse and repeat again.

    There are literally millions of these out there, on all manner of product, that have little or nothing to do with any sort of medical conditions - unless you consider lacking any and all common sense a medical condition.

    And yes, I absolutely include the warning "May contain Peanuts" on a frelling bag of PEANUTS - it BETTER contain peanuts.



    You think? Kind of obvious after that first line: Ingredients: 100% Peanuts.

    Next thing you know - warning labels on Fire: "Caution, Fire is HOT."



    Aw crap - too late.

    But this is exactly my point - even the smallest bit of (un)common sense would go a very long way. But NO... if you even hint that someone should take responsibility for their own actions and you get crucified on hot fire as a "victim blamer" or "ignorant and unfeeling monster" - or any of the hundreds of things I get called all the time - because I do believe in personal responsibility.

    The guy who lost his hands trying to juggle running chainsaws - I don't feel sorry for him, not for what happened, but rather for the lack of common sense - that little voice inside that says "This probably isn't a good idea..." Or even Jimi Heselden - former owner of Segway, who backed his Segway over a cliff, disregarding all the safety instructions and warnings on the device. Common Sense 0, Fatality 1.

    A darned shame? Sure. A senseless, avoidable fatality - you bet. They aren't called "Safety Suggestions" after all.

  4. #274
    I got a simple explanation: the golden rule.

    "he who has the gold, makes the rules." This site belongs to FDev, we are but guests, the absolute least we can do is abide by the rules as best we can. Don't like it? Tough, go somewhere else then.

  5. #275
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to IndigoWyrd again.
    Originally Posted by thirstyfish View Post (Source)
    I got a simple explanation: the golden rule.

    "he who has the gold, makes the rules." This site belongs to FDev, we are but guests, the absolute least we can do is abide by the rules as best we can. Don't like it? Tough, go somewhere else then.
    Can't argue with that. It's not a rule I dislike to the Point I'd leave. But that doesn't mean the debate itself is forbidden.

  6. #276
    Originally Posted by IndigoWyrd View Post (Source)
    I'm going to have to ask a few painfully obvious questions:

    1. How did someone get your wife's e-mail to be able to e-mail her anything in the first place?
    2. By the same token, how did they get your work e-mail address?

    Somewhere along the line this information had to be available - either because you'd shared your personal information with someone you shouldn't have - and the result above goes to show exactly why, or someone else did - which again, illustrates why it is so vital to keep your personal information Above Top Secret online.

    I haven't any idea what a Mittani is, and not I'm not up for googling it, but that only serves to further illustrate the problem - people direly need to learn to let things go, use blocking features, ignore options, thicken their skin a bit, and relax. It's not that hard, really.
    1: No idea, but I can imagine a bit of facebook stalking is all it took

    2: I had a front of office job at the time and a fairly unique name.

    I'd hope from my posts and prior discussions you'd appreciate that I was someone with a bit more thicker skin and a relaxed attitude to gaming. However, I think a line is crossed if you start going into the aforementioned realms over e-spaceships.

    Particulalry when it has a knock on effect on people who arent even playing the game in the first place.

  7. #277
    Something occurred to me just and i am probably missing the obvious answer (and 1st and formost let me confirm, after reading here i now "get" why FD want no naming and shaming)

    but 1 argument used is that "naming and shaming is an out of game thing, and doing out of game stuff is just bad.

    but, equally......... isnt cherry picking human "players" because they are humans not equally an out of game justification for "PvP"?

    in ED within the game there are NO players... all ships are piloted by people.

    so in game then these people blowing up hollow boxes are infact cherry picking attacking Pilots Federation members.... which i guess is fair enough, however this then means that these people are actively destroying members of THEIR OWN FACTION .... and as such should fully be on board with getting kicked from said Pilots Federation and losing the insurance and Remlok system that they provide?

  8. #278
    Originally Posted by IndigoWyrd View Post (Source)
    --- never ending wall of text with some potential misinformation ---
    You really should take your own advice about ignoring people who annoy you (which seems to be at least half the people posting to this thread).

    [edit] - Having reread your post closely, I think the "misinformation" is the result of how you wrote it. I still think it's misleading, so I'm keeping my reply below [/edit]

    Here's the truth of the matter - every household on the Internet is assigned a public IP address. Internal NAT addresses (192.168.x.y) are what allow us to have a dozen different devices share that one Internet connection, but these internal addresses are translated (Network Address Translation) to our actual Internet address by our NAT router. It is this public Internet address, not our LAN addresses, that's available to other players in a P2P network, assuming they have the technical know-how access this information.

    Now it's easy to become paranoid about our public IP address being public, which I'm not endorsing. If a person lives in the city and subscribes to an ISP like Comcast which has millions of other users and dynamic public IP addresses, you really don't have much to worry about. If you live in a rural area like I do, you can easily find out which country, state, and even town I live in, as my ISP is a small "mom and pop" (compared to Comcast) business. Someone good at social engineering can then call my ISP, talk to the teenage girl who handles customer service, and get my real name. Just reading some of you go off in this thread makes me incredibly thankful that you don't have my real name, nor my real IP address, as I use a paid VPN service.

    ps - the technical description in this post is based on IPv4

  9. #279
    Originally Posted by IndigoWyrd View Post (Source)
    There are literally millions of these out there...
    Literally millions are there? Literally? So there are at least two million distinct examples of this that you could point to?

    You know, with your PC-gone-mad/society-going-soft/bonkers-health-and-safety stuff, you could start your very own rival to the Daily Mail. All you need now is a few upskirt shots and a list of what either cures or causes cancer this week. Shouldn't be too hard to pull off.

  10. #280
    Originally Posted by Goose4291 View Post (Source)
    1: No idea, but I can imagine a bit of facebook stalking is all it took

    2: I had a front of office job at the time and a fairly unique name.

    I'd hope from my posts and prior discussions you'd appreciate that I was someone with a bit more thicker skin and a relaxed attitude to gaming. However, I think a line is crossed if you start going into the aforementioned realms over e-spaceships.

    Particulalry when it has a knock on effect on people who arent even playing the game in the first place.
    Believe me, I appreciate it - and I excuse this sort of behavior. There is no call for anyone attacking someone else over something that happens in a game.
    There is no call to mistreat anyone, it's just stupidity in the extreme.

    But there is also no reason not to take reasonable measures to safeguard yourself either, because the world is full of folks with no excuse, so there's no reason not to insulate yourself from them.

  11. #281
    Originally Posted by IndigoWyrd View Post (Source)
    Clearly not - some people have very strong mental states. Others are very weak, and others still split the difference and cover the whole spectrum.

    You're incredibly ignorant of the depth of my knowledge, rife with intolerance for anyone who does not share your pastel-colored Disney Worldview, but I'm not going to hold that against you here. I was trying to have a civil, if not extremely blunt discourse about a genuine social issue that is routinely aggravated though routine game play, and did not loose the personal affronts because my position was so weak and untenable, now did I?

    So let's keep to the topic and discuss the topic, not the person.
    If you had any depth of knowledge, you wouldn't be saying the things you are doing.

    You also don't know anything about my world view, but nice try.

  12. #282
    Originally Posted by Old Duck View Post (Source)
    You really should take your own advice about ignoring people who annoy you (which seems to be at least half the people posting to this thread).

    [edit] - Having reread your post closely, I think the "misinformation" is the result of how you wrote it. I still think it's misleading, so I'm keeping my reply below [/edit]

    Here's the truth of the matter - every household on the Internet is assigned a public IP address. Internal NAT addresses (192.168.x.y) are what allow us to have a dozen different devices share that one Internet connection, but these internal addresses are translated (Network Address Translation) to our actual Internet address by our NAT router. It is this public Internet address, not our LAN addresses, that's available to other players in a P2P network, assuming they have the technical know-how access this information.

    Now it's easy to become paranoid about our public IP address being public, which I'm not endorsing. If a person lives in the city and subscribes to an ISP like Comcast which has millions of other users and dynamic public IP addresses, you really don't have much to worry about. If you live in a rural area like I do, you can easily find out which country, state, and even town I live in, as my ISP is a small "mom and pop" (compared to Comcast) business. Someone good at social engineering can then call my ISP, talk to the teenage girl who handles customer service, and get my real name. Just reading some of you go off in this thread makes me incredibly thankful that you don't have my real name, nor my real IP address, as I use a paid VPN service.

    ps - the technical description in this post is based on IPv4
    Oh, you're one of THOSE...And yes, I did state there is a difference between your external (public) IP and your internal (private) IP, but... even with a small "mom-and-pop" ISP, they are very likely, perhaps even more so likely, to be doling out dynamic IP's and with shorter lease times than large IP's, as they're actually leasing those IP blocks from a real provider - like Comcast, so it should be even more difficult to translate a public IP into any sort of meaningful information.

    And I'm not sure which "you" you're referring to - so I can only speak for myself in saying your IP, physical location and real name couldn't be safer with me than if you alone knew them. But that's just me. The rest of these yo-yos.. yeah, you're probably right there.

    Now, about this VPN business... there are only two reasons for using a VPN:

    1. You have a home office and need to access your company intranet to use licensed software or utilize resources on your company network.
    2. You think you're hiding yourself because you're either paranoid or engaged in criminal activity.

    I say "think you're hiding yourself" because the VPN reseller has logs of all your connections, your account information, and records of everything you try to hide. If subpoenaed by the courts, they will turn this information over, and everything you thought you were hiding will be laid to bare - creepy people doing creepy things online wind up in jail this way regularly, and you're not hiding anything. These are one of the biggest jokes, and near-scams offered online.

    Now, you will likely generate a lot less targeted advertisement this way, and will pick up a bit less spam this way, but that's really about all you get for your money.

    People all the time try to claim using these improves their ping times - and it doesn't.

    But it can look like it does, since the ping reply comes from the VPN provider, not you. You still have the same crappy connection speed and performance to and from the VPN provider, with all the latency and packet loss you'd experience without it, and you've added an extra layer of potential problems when it comes to actually troubleshooting a network issue, by adding an unnecessary layer to your connection.

    I often liken these to those bypass roads that run parallel to the highway - especially those that are a single-lane in poor condition. Yes, 8 lanes of highway backed up might be creepy along, but it's still a better ride than two lanes of potholes, loose gravel, dead raccoons and four-lanes worth of traffic trying to jam into one when you're driving a 1946 Ford truck with a 4x4 for a bumper and wooden left rear wheel.

  13. #283
    Originally Posted by Aldaris View Post (Source)
    If you had any depth of knowledge, you wouldn't be saying the things you are doing.

    You also don't know anything about my world view, but nice try.
    You just can't stop with the personal attacks can you? Can't discuss the topic? Is it that hard to do, or is it just that I'm that right?

    I'm trying to be reasonable, but this is the cattle-prod. Get back on topic and get off of me, or you'll be the second person on my ignore list.

    If I weren't so thick skinned and shallow I'd simply use the "Report this post" function, call out the personal attacks and be done. But I'm trying to help you - trying to give you the chance to participate in a meaningful way, but I recognize a futile effort when I see one, and this is it. You don't want to be helped. You don't want to be enlightened. You don't want to participate. So last chance - discuss the topic or be banished to the ignore realm.

  14. #284
    Originally Posted by IndigoWyrd View Post (Source)
    You just can't stop with the personal attacks can you? Can't discuss the topic? Is it that hard to do, or is it just that I'm that right?

    I'm trying to be reasonable, but this is the cattle-prod. Get back on topic and get off of me, or you'll be the second person on my ignore list.

    If I weren't so thick skinned and shallow I'd simply use the "Report this post" function, call out the personal attacks and be done. But I'm trying to help you - trying to give you the chance to participate in a meaningful way, but I recognize a futile effort when I see one, and this is it. You don't want to be helped. You don't want to be enlightened. You don't want to participate. So last chance - discuss the topic or be banished to the ignore realm.
    Replacing arguments with insults basically shows that this guy is at the end of his capabilities to take part in any kind of discussion.
    Ignoring usually works.

  15. #285
    Originally Posted by Dale Emasiri View Post (Source)
    Oh boy, one of these.

    Okay, let me try and tackle this one succinctly, because over the years I've answered it so many times... it has a tendency to run on.

    These forums are owned by us and are therefore our responsibility. In most countries, libel and defamation laws exist. While it may seem like a stretch for a gaming forum N&S to turn into real-world, actionable libel/defamation case, Zac and I have seen this happen in a previous placed we worked. By the time thee claims had been verified it was already too late and the victim of this case had already been seriously affected in their daily life. The rule has become standard across most communications platforms (public ones, at least) owned by companies and communities. There are enough examples of these things going South that it's just a good idea to have in place from the beginning.

    It's a form of harassment. As with all forms of harassment, they should be reported directly to Frontier so that we can take action where necessary.

    There are a few other reasons, but the above are the ones that really matter. The rest are subjective and have probably been discussed a number of times already throughout the years of these forums' existence.

    As far as in-game means to 'exact revenge' or to punish griefers and whatnot: that's a whole different subject from the OP and something that's actively being worked on with the Crime & Punishment systems that the dev team are working on currently. This might not resolve the issue all at once, but the idea is to create a fair way to make sure aggressors are appropriately punished.

    Tl;dr... the forums are owned by Frontier and it's our responsibility to make sure harassment, libel, illegal activities, etc. etc. don't occur here.

    Also... because we said so...? ;p
    I'm going to close this thread now since it's collecting handbaggery, is becoming circular, and has already received an official response from Frontier (quoted above).

    This is a forum rule and will continue to be a forum rule. Thank you everyone for your feedback.

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