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Thread: PFB, Ship Rebuy Penalty and Powerplay

  1. Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread. #1
    Lead Designer- Elite: Dangerous Frontier Employee

    PFB, Ship Rebuy Penalty and Powerplay

    Hello Commanders!

    There has been a lot of very interesting debate among Powerplayers as to how the new crime rules should/can interact with the system.

    So I thought I'd fish for some feedback!

    Important: This thread is for this single subject only. Off topic posts *will* be removed without warning! There are other potential issues with these rules, but they're not the focus of this thread.

    Very Important: This thread is quite technical in terms of Powerplay design, so read carefully! The devil is in the details.

    OK, so first, a recap so we're all on the same page:

    Live Powerplay crime rules:

    * If I am pledged to a power and in my power's territory, I can attack with impunity any other pledged vessel as long as their power is from a different superpower (in this case, treat every independent power as its own superpower).

    * I can attack with impunity a pledged vessel from the same superpower in my power's territory if I have scanned it and discovered it is carrying voucher or cargo associated with my power.

    This means that you cannot "help" a power sharing the same superpower (e.g. Hudson helping Winters, both are Federal powers) without incurring standard system bounties (or waiting for opponent pledged vessels to become wanted).

    Beta crime rules:

    * I will suffer a Pilot's Federation Bounty and risk a ship rebuy penalty if I attack any pledged vessel that does not belong to my power.

    As folk have pointed out, this is potentially very restrictive, reducing the ability to help out powers from the same superpower.

    As I have said, I'm not totally convinced that would be a bad move, but then, I don't play Powerplay as much as you folk do!

    So, I have a few options I'd like your opinions on:


    * Leave it as it currently is in Beta: Independent powers potentially become more effective as the playing field is more level in terms of who can easily help out (hint: no-one can).


    * Change the new exception: I will not suffer a PFB or ship rebuy penalty if I was pledged to a power, the target vessel was pledged to a power from a different superpower, and the system was owned by a power aligned to my superpower.

    * I will still suffer standard bounty crimes for helping out.


    * Remove crimes for attacking a pledged vessel pledged to a power from a different superpower to the power I am pledged to, in a system owned by a power aligned to my superpower.

    * This means no bounties, PFB or ship rebuy penalties will be triggered unless I am attacking a ship from my power, or a ship pledged to a power aligned with my superpower that is not carrying your power's cargo or vouchers.

    Feedback will be appreciated!

  2. #2
    Hmm , I think Option Two.

    But alas, I don't PowerPlay either.

  3. #3
    I can see the point for having one of the three, they all have their benefits. The bigger question is will any of the listed hurt Power Play and make pilots even more unwilling to play this aspect of the game. As you have stated your not very familiar with this aspect of the game, and this is more the norm for the majority of the pilots, who don't see any benefits, other than a credit grind, to do PP, instead they opt for combat roles that are fun and exciting, mainly with PVP. PP can be pretty monotonous, and has no obvious effect on the overall game. I would really like to see more pilots play PP.
    I vote for the one that is more of a benefit than a restriction.
    Just my opinion.

  4. #4
    my vote is option three. there should be no bounties for me(hudson) helping remove imperials from winters HQ, or expansion systems...

  5. #5
    Option 3. I DO engage in PowerPlay.. this is the best option imo

  6. #6
    Option three is preferred, from someone with over seventy cycles in Powerplay. Option two is tolerable. Option would would be very bad; almost forcing player groups to split up due to mechanical change. I'd be quite upset if as a Winters player I could no longer go help out Hudson pilots in their HQ, or had issues helping defend their expansions.

    The idea of "every power as an Island" probably won't come to pass regardless of mechanical changes; coordinating Undermining efforts across the superpowers is simply too useful to give up regardless. Winters and Hudson would still coordinate together, as would the Imperial powers (I presume). The communities will still be working together, and Option one just drives an arbitrary and frustrating wedge between them on defense.

  7. #7

    * Remove crimes for attacking a pledged vessel pledged to a power from a different superpower to the power I am pledged to, in a system owned by a power aligned to my superpower.

    * This means no bounties, PFB or ship rebuy penalties will be triggered unless I am attacking a ship from my power, or a ship pledged to a power aligned with my superpower that is not carrying your power's cargo or vouchers.
    I hope I understand this correctly.

    To me option three seems to be the most logical.
    If I am aligned to Lavigny Duval and attack Archon Delaine power ships in Aisling Duval's territory, then this should not be considered a crime in Aisling's territory.
    Clearly Aisling will appreciate another Imperial sister Power helping her out. If anything Aisling might offer me a small bonus.
    Not only am I attacking an enemy of my own Imperial power I also am attacking an enemy of Aisling, and both powers are Imperial and not mortal enemies.

    Personally I even think that when I am not pledged to any power at all and then attack an enemy power ship (f.e. Delaine ship in Aisling territory) in some power's territory it should not be considered a crime.
    I think there should be a standard bounty on the head of any enemy Power's ship X in any Power's Y territory. And this bounty should be collectible by anybody that does not belong to an enemy power, be it neutral or belonging to an aligned Power.

  8. #8
    All the options are bad. As an active power player if I come across a enemy pledged player anywhere, i'm going to try and blow their ship up, they might be carrying merits. option 3 would be the best if we had to choose.

  9. #9
    Im not participating in powerplay myself, so I'll be taking bets here. However, Im certain option three will be the most favoured one. It actually makes the most sense.

    However, maybe I got your attention now:

    PLEASE include another exception for the player minor factions (PMFs)! It could look like this:

    PMF A and PMF B are at war in system Z which is owned by PMF A
    Player X is allied to PMF A
    Player Y is allied to PMF B
    They fight each other in system Z
    No PFB or ship rebuy penalty will be triggered for either cmdr, but a minor faction bounty will be triggered for player Y (invading), not for player X (defending)

    Note that this will only work for 'known enemies'. Should player X be stupid enough to attack random players passing by, he may get lucky and hit the exception once or twice, but on the long run he will push his own faction into lockdown and diminsh their influence and in addition suffer the penalties from the C&P system every time he kills a random player passing by who is not allied with PMF B.

    I know this will only cover a very specific case, and I hope you are aware of the fact that those players playing for a PMF actually would like to see more, but I think this would be an opportunity for you to make a gesture: Look, we're not forgetting you!

  10. #10
    As an 'official' working for your power effectively under a letter of marque people from other powers are fair game.... there are benefits and responsibilities to being pledged that come with risks if you stray out of that territory.

    Flying around with 'I love Aisling' on your hull in someone else's space makes you a legitimate target and any ship pledged to the system owning power would be within their rights to legally do you in. With extreme prejudice.

  11. #11
    Sandro! Thank you for starting this thread. I think that you clearly understand the issues that are at hand, and you've given good options. So thanks for that.

    Option One would be devastating to the Imperial and Federal communities that have built large PVP wings around supporting their allies. I do not believe it would create an appreciable advantages for the independent powers. Please don't create new mechanics that punish CMDRs for creating good content!

    Option Two would be acceptable, I think, but I believe Option Three would be ideal and would go a long way toward generating more interest in powerplay. I think it would draw active PVP groups that would, I hope, become involved in the powers they choose to defend.

    Can you clarify Option Three? Would a mixed Imperial wing be able to attack a Hudson CMDR in an Imperial expansion without bounties/PFB/rebuy penalties, etc. even if that CMDR is not holding merits? I.e., if he's just part of a hostile PVP patrol, is he fair game?

    Additionally: this is not going to impact crimes generated when powerplayers kill powerplay NPCs in their systems, correct?

  12. #12
    Deadly Global Moderator dayrth's Avatar
    I vote for option 3. I am pledged and it will make travelling around the bubble more *interesting* but it seem the most sensible option.

  13. #13
    Option 3 is the best I would think. It leaves powerplay to be extrememly flexible and forgiving.

    I'd choose Option 2 second. Standard bounties are OK i guess. I would prefer they not be there, though, to help grow the powerplay player base back to higher participant levels.

    Edit: I always viewed bounties in Powerplay as a punishment for even participating, which is probably one reason many CMDRs don't participate. Option 3 is the most friendly, and I think it will help grow the PP community and help promote both PvE and PvP aspect.

    Edit 2: i also think Option 3 would enhance the "risk" of those who are just module shopping. But I am a little cynical like that.

  14. Click here to go to the next staff post in this thread. #14
    Lead Designer- Elite: Dangerous Frontier Employee
    Hello Commanders!

    Thanks for the feedback so far.

    A couple of points:

    * This does not affect undermining or opposing. As an opposing Commander, you will trigger the exception by default as long as your target is pledged to the power that owns the system or is trying to expand. So any amount of Commanders can still gang up to attack. There's a part of me that like the potential for destabilising the field that this could bring: always being stronger in attack than defence. But perhaps that's just me wishful thinking.

    * When you say that you should be able to help your Federal/Imperial buddies, remember that this makes the playing field less even - the Alliance and independent factions don't have this benefit, have never had it. "Personal’s not the same as important. People just think it is" - to quote a literary legend.

  15. #15
    Deadly Global Moderator Javert's Avatar
    It's funny you should post that because I was just wondering earlier today if this was getting too complicated and I nearly posted a question as to why you wouldn't do what you describe as option 3 and be done with it.

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