Page 1 of 10 12345 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 139

Click here to go to the first staff post in this thread.
Thread: Synthesis 30 second delay and damage interruption removes reloading during combat

  1. #1

    Synthesis 30 second delay and damage interruption removes reloading during combat

    I have just tested the new synthesis reload and interruption mechanics in Beta 2.4 Version 4. (They are in, although have not been included in any version of the Patch Notes.)

    I do not have the mats to test the new utility reloads (chaff and heatsinks).

    However I have tested kinetic weapon synthesis reload in basic, standard and premium versions.

    In every case the result is the same (no variation so far as I can see by weapon or grade of synthesis): synthesising ammunition takes 30 seconds.

    Furthermore, the synthesis is instantly reset to zero (without loss of materials) by taking any weapon fire (including to shields) within the 30 second window.

    In other words, it is now impossible to synthesise ammunition whilst in range of an enemy (unless perhaps one was flying a small ship with heroic levels of evasion, against a Cmdr armed with fixed weapons beyond his current level of ability).

    Ammo reserves have not been buffed and remain precisely the same as before.

    This removes reloading and hence weapons such as cannons and multis from 1v1 PvP, unless one is flying a ship with sufficient speed superiority to clear enemy range and maintain clearance, and is fighting a patient opponent willing to wait for 30 seconds whilst you are out of range, for as many reloads as it takes to finish the fight.

    In practice, I expect that 1v1's that already take 20 to 40 mins will now either be abandoned earlier or start to take 30 mins to 60 mins, being fought over a series of 'rounds' ... bi-weaves recharging whilst synthesis reloading is performed.

    If we move more towards laser-based builds (an existing trend already, admittedly) TTK will simply increase by the same if not a greater margin due to reduced DPE.

    Some reload weapons (most obviously plasma) that come with a high damage pool will obviously be less affected than (e.g.) cannons, the latter being effectively removed. And RIP the rapid fire Pacifier / Frag Cannon...?

    Sandro has suggested reducing the time delay for weapon (as opposed to utility) reloads:

    Originally Posted by Truesilver View Post (Source)
    Sandro, as you set it out above, this would end the use of kinetic weapons in 1v1 PvP. We have to synthesise so many times just to kill each other sometimes it's unreal. If one long range laser tag disrupts the synth, RIP kinetic.

    Doubling the ammo pool would be welcome but nowhere near enough to offset the above.

    Furthermore, even with some mitigation, adding a delay to synth without addressing the underlying lack of ammo issue caused by hit point inflation will turn 1v1 PvP into something carried out over a series of 'rounds', as combatants retire out of range to reload. This already happens to some extent with bi-weave reform but it would make it much worse, elongating TTK yet further.

    All the same, thanks for the work going into this!

    o7
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commander Truesilver!

    Interesting point. We could mitigate this danger by having much shorter synthesis times for ammunition (something we're considering, hence the ability to have per recipe timers).
    I would observe again that this might be fine for those of us who fly Couriers in PvP (we would be able to make good use of a short window, in a light build) but will be of absolutely no use to ships such as the Big 3. Synthesis is abolished 1v1, so far as they are concerned, because they take fire pretty much continuously.
    Federal Vigilante PvP Executioner Friend and Supporter of Adle's Armada

  2. #2
    The time delay on synthesis (and reset on being hit) being applied to ammunition synthesis might be an attempt to make ammunition limits relevant again - as they have been largely irrelevant to any player with the materials to synthesise more for quite some time now.

    Noting that Sandro has mentioned a possible reduction in the delay rather than its removal.

  3. #3
    Originally Posted by Truesilver View Post (Source)
    I have just tested the new synthesis reload and interruption mechanics in Beta 2.4 Version 4. (They are in, although have not been included in any version of the Patch Notes.)

    I do not have the mats to test the new utility reloads (chaff and heatsinks).

    However I have tested kinetic weapon synthesis reload in basic, standard and premium versions.

    In every case the result is the same (no variation so far as I can see by weapon or grade of synthesis): synthesising ammunition takes 30 seconds.

    Furthermore, the synthesis is instantly reset to zero (without loss of materials) by taking any weapon fire (including to shields) within the 30 second window.

    In other words, it is now impossible to synthesise ammunition whilst in range of an enemy (unless perhaps one was flying a small ship with heroic levels of evasion, against a Cmdr armed with fixed weapons beyond his current level of ability).

    Ammo reserves have not been buffed and remain precisely the same as before.

    This removes reloading and hence weapons such as cannons and multis from 1v1 PvP, unless one is flying a ship with sufficient speed superiority to clear enemy range and maintain clearance, and is fighting a patient opponent willing to wait for 30 seconds whilst you are out of range, for as many reloads as it takes to finish the fight.

    In practice, I expect that 1v1's that already take 20 to 40 mins will now either be abandoned earlier or start to take 30 mins to 60 mins, being fought over a series of 'rounds' ... bi-weaves recharging whilst synthesis reloading is performed.

    If we move more towards laser-based builds (an existing trend already, admittedly) TTK will simply increase by the same if not a greater margin due to reduced DPE.

    Some reload weapons (most obviously plasma) that come with a high damage pool will obviously be less affected than (e.g.) cannons, the latter being effectively removed. And RIP the rapid fire Pacifier / Frag Cannon...?

    Sandro has suggested reducing the time delay for weapon (as opposed to utility) reloads:





    I would observe again that this might be fine for those of us who fly Couriers in PvP (we would be able to make good use of a short window, in a light build) but will be of absolutely no use to ships such as the Big 3. Synthesis is abolished 1v1, so far as they are concerned, because they take fire pretty much continuously.
    Low wake out. Synth in SC.

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by imski View Post (Source)
    Low wake out. Synth in SC.
    It's not an issue in PvE. You just end the engagement and then reload. It's an issue in 1v1 PvP.
    Federal Vigilante PvP Executioner Friend and Supporter of Adle's Armada

  5. #5
    Is it though?

    Clearly the PvE side of combat is the driver, and anything other than a cool down timer means chain spamming of chaff or heat sinks (not even getting into the stupidity of needing manufactured mats for heat sinks, but needing Iron, Nickel, Carbon and Sulphur makes you a missile).

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by Truesilver View Post (Source)
    It's not an issue in PvE. You just end the engagement and then reload. It's an issue in 1v1 PvP.
    It is an issue because shield boosters stacking has not been balanced and you need reloads on kinetic/explosive weapons in order to kill the insane amount of MJ provide by stacking skill boosters.

    The delay is a good thing for 1v1 because it will promote skill instead of OP loadout. Maybe laser build will come back aswell.

    As it is now, 1v1 are more about loadout than skill. Next step is to balance skill boosters stacking.

  7. #7
    Pretty unfortunate.

    Boosting reserves to adequately compensate would only further the gap between lasers and kinetics. Players who don't even touch PvP/synthesis would have PvP sized ammo pools for PvE. Lasers would have a really difficult time finding their way into any build if that happened.

    As someone mentioned above this all seems to come back to the massive EHP ships have. Seems to me the only solutions there involve reducing health and/or increasing damage across the board.

  8. #8
    Originally Posted by Robert Maynard View Post (Source)
    The time delay on synthesis (and reset on being hit) being applied to ammunition synthesis might be an attempt to make ammunition limits relevant again - as they have been largely irrelevant to any player with the materials to synthesise more for quite some time now.
    The problem is that the ammo pool will remain irrelevant in PvE (because you can reload between fights) and irrelevant in winged PvP (because you can focus someone down before reloads are necessary).

    But in 1v1 PvP several kinetic weapons are simply inviable without under-fire reload. The ammo pool doesn't become relevant, the weapon becomes un-outfittable.

    Originally Posted by Robert Maynard View Post (Source)
    Noting that Sandro has mentioned a possible reduction in the delay rather than its removal.
    Introducing a shorter time for weapon (as opposed to utility) reloads, as Sandro suggested in the quote linked in the OP, probably would solve the problem for fast ships, but it would mean that synthesis can never be used by the Big 3 or a Python, for example. Continuous tagging with a long range pulse is a complete block.

    Originally Posted by imski View Post (Source)
    Clearly the PvE side of combat is the driver, and anything other than a cool down timer means chain spamming of chaff or heat sinks (not even getting into the stupidity of needing manufactured mats for heat sinks, but needing Iron, Nickel, Carbon and Sulphur makes you a missile).
    I think the timer is a reasonable solution to the possibility of infinite chained chaff or sinks. But in saving us from that, Frontier have introduced a fundamental change to the use of kinetic weapons in post-2.1 PvP, without any formal consultation or mention in the Patch Notes. (My interchange with Sandro quoted above will doubtless have reached only a tiny fraction of those who would have seen Patch Notes).

    The solution probably is to differentiate between utility reload and weapon reload.

    Originally Posted by PeLucheuh View Post (Source)
    It is an issue because shield boosters stacking has not been balanced and you need reloads on kinetic/explosive weapons in order to kill the insane amount of MJ provide by stacking skill boosters.

    The delay is a good thing for 1v1 because it will promote skill instead of OP loadout. Maybe laser build will come back aswell.

    As it is now, 1v1 are more about loadout than skill. Next step is to balance skill boosters stacking.
    Originally Posted by slum View Post (Source)
    As someone mentioned above this all seems to come back to the massive EHP ships have. Seems to me the only solutions there involve reducing health and/or increasing damage across the board.
    The hit point inflation is indeed the root cause of the problem. I have devoted many threads to this in the past, of course.

    The fundamental issue is that Frontier's vision of ultra-short TTK after 2.1, by reason of overwhelming weaponised heat, proved very unpopular, didn't work, and was nerfed progressively until (barring bugged heat cannons) it was removed in 2.2.

    But no consequent revisions were made either to weapon damage or to booster stacking to compensate for the fact the main Developer-intended bypass - weaponised heat - had just been removed.

    In 2.1 at Launch, it was suicide not to carry several heat sinks. Failing to use a heat sink in the first few seconds of an engagement was certain death. A ship's health was measured in heat sinks. How many Mj or hull health hp you had was almost irrelevant.

    That was silly and it had to go. But that left us free to fly ships that were not part of Frontier's plan for 2.1: ships with colossal raw health and no effective bypass.

    Every single change since then: feedback cascade nerf, phasing nerf, shield regen buff, MRP introduction - although individually sensible - have collectively made hit point inflation worse.

    Now 1v1 many builds will lack the ammo to get through even one quarter of a PvP ship's hit points. If we move further towards a laser meta, of course the DPE issues mean sustainable DPS just gets lower and TTK even longer.
    Federal Vigilante PvP Executioner Friend and Supporter of Adle's Armada

  9. #9
    Here's a quick suggestion, for ammo synthesis.

    Basic ammo: 5 second timer.
    Standard ammo: 15 second timer.
    Premium ammo: 30 second timer.

    ?

    CMDR Cosmic Spacehead

  10. #10
    to me it looks like double-penalizing synthesis.

    i think, one of the two (long time for synth or synth fails under fire) would both be enough alone - with good reasoning for the second, to reduce "waiting time".
    ___

    Ceci n'est pas une signature.

  11. #11
    Truesilver, I don't have real experience with PvP.

    That being said, conceptually, it seems that ammo-dependent weapons were balanced with that ammo limition in mind. They usually have lower Distr Draw compared to laser weapons.
    I don't think it was ever intended that Kinnetic weapons to be "ammo-free" like they are now, because if not for that ammo limitation, they are strictly better than laser weapons.


    In my mind, I 've always thought that game design-wise, FDev intented laser to be used against shields, Kin weapons against hulls and the synthesis to be used as a means to not having to go to a station to resupply all the time.
    The fact that 1vs1 PvP is using the synthesis to basically change this design was probably not intended. The fact that PvE and larger scale PvP are also using kin weapons without this limitation is also probably not intended and most likely, a problem for FDev.


    I can understand that 1v1 PvP might suffer for it, but games ought not to be balanced around 1v1 PvP, imo.
    FDev must make some adjustments of course, but a very specific sub-sample of PvP shouldn't keep the Devs from changing parts of the game.
    They should keep kin weapons from being almost "ammo-free" like they are now and make them actually have that limitation during engagements. And then tweak some stuff so that 1vs1 PvP doesn't suffer too much.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by Truesilver View Post (Source)
    I think the timer is a reasonable solution to the possibility of infinite chained chaff or sinks. But in saving us from that, Frontier have introduced a fundamental change to the use of kinetic weapons in post-2.1 PvP, without any formal consultation or mention in the Patch Notes. (My interchange with Sandro quoted above will doubtless have reached only a tiny fraction of those who would have seen Patch Notes).

    The solution probably is to differentiate between utility reload and weapon reload.
    This is my thinking as well. I've been skeptical every since Sandro first mentioned a timer as a solution, picturing exactly the scenario you mention. The only solution I can see is to separate utility and ammo synthesis and come up with a completely different mechanic for utility such as the need to be in SC (for instance). I'm glad you're beating the drum and sounding the alarm on this issue.
    Quitting the game to play the forum full time.

  13. #13
    I don't mind a timer, especially for basic ammunition that only restores half your ammunition. But allowing damage to cancel the reload is a step too far.

  14. #14
    Originally Posted by Bio-Flame View Post (Source)
    Truesilver, I don't have real experience with PvP.

    That being said, conceptually, it seems that ammo-dependent weapons were balanced with that ammo limition in mind. They usually have lower Distr Draw compared to laser weapons.
    I don't think it was ever intended that Kinnetic weapons to be "ammo-free" like they are now, because if not for that ammo limitation, they are strictly better than laser weapons.


    In my mind, I 've always thought that game design-wise, FDev intented laser to be used against shields, Kin weapons against hulls and the synthesis to be used as a means to not having to go to a station to resupply all the time.
    The fact that 1vs1 PvP is using the synthesis to basically change this design was probably not intended. The fact that PvE and larger scale PvP are also using kin weapons without this limitation is also probably not intended and most likely, a problem for FDev.


    I can understand that 1v1 PvP might suffer for it, but games ought not to be balanced around 1v1 PvP, imo.
    FDev must make some adjustments of course, but a very specific sub-sample of PvP shouldn't keep the Devs from changing parts of the game.
    They should keep kin weapons from being almost "ammo-free" like they are now and make them actually have that limitation during engagements. And then tweak some stuff so that 1vs1 PvP doesn't suffer too much.
    +Rep to you.

    This is exactly how the game appeared to have been planned. The idea behind synthesis didn't ever seem to have been to make ammunition weapons "kinda" infinite ammo in combat, but, to allow you to remove the need to go back to a station after battles to reload.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by Bio-Flame View Post (Source)
    In my mind, I 've always thought that game design-wise, FDev intented laser to be used against shields, Kin weapons against hulls
    Yeah, but then we got engineers, and now it doesn't really matter which weapon you use / it's plasma / it's a feedback cascade rail because the opponent is chugging SCB's.

    Hitpoint power creep is very real and the TTK is either too long or too short; introducing sharp diminishing returns on (at least) booster stacks would be a start, but it is a pickle.

    Point being, you shouldn't have to reload. Or maybe it's fun to fire 400 shots of plasma at a target? Or have your finger cramp emptying MC clip after MC clip?
    Play in open, the water is nice

Page 1 of 10 12345 ... LastLast