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Thread: The Juicy Feedback Fdev was wanting. The reason Open sucks for everybody.

  1. #61
    Originally Posted by Lysander lysan View Post (Source)
    one of my main issues are the hollow RADAR blip for commanders, it should not be there, knowing where there are commanders and where there are NPC's is a no go regarding PVP.
    its there because the radar identifys the target as a pilot federation member..... all players belong to it. AI dont.

    any way thats how i justify it.

  2. #62
    Originally Posted by Agony_Aunt View Post (Source)
    OP - getting good at PvP in ANY game takes a lot of time and effort. A hell of a lot of time and effort. Its not just ED, its not just because of Engineers. You need to practice, practice, practice. No matter how engineered your ship, you will still lose to a better player as long as they are in a well kitted (and engineered) ship. Those extra % on rolls can help, but won't always be a deciding factor, especially if there is any reasonable difference in skill.
    But you always have that thought in the back of your head. You can be sure that the playing field is not even, not with engineered modules.

  3. #63
    Originally Posted by joshman72nd View Post (Source)
    its there because the radar identifys the target as a pilot federation member..... all players belong to it. AI dont.

    any way thats how i justify it.
    That is fine from a simulation point of view, but then it should be possible to turn it off just like you can do it in an airplane today.

  4. #64
    Originally Posted by Agony_Aunt View Post (Source)
    OP - getting good at PvP in ANY* game takes a lot of time and effort. A hell of a lot of time and effort. Its not just ED, its not just because of Engineers.
    I kinda disagree with you... My favorite PvP game, and one of the most successful, is Overwatch. Many reviewers have commented that a large part of its success is that you can play and have fun without being a 20 year old with hyper-reflexes who practices 16 hours a day. The key is balance, which Blizzard works endlessly on to perfect. ED throws balance out the window - it allows people to engineer god-ships and take them to starter systems and lay waste to 1-hour old players, without any consequence.

    One could argue ED is just like other MMOs. However, let's consider Elder Scrolls Online (it's what I know). Unlike ED, ESO defaults to PvE. A new player coming out of Cold Harbor is not going to get griefed by a level 160 player. PvP is consensual or not at all. The second difference is that most of the PvP is a group activity, so the balance comes in "averaging" - a weak player like mine can go to Cyrodiil and participate and even survive if I hang out with the right crowd pick my targets wisely. Wings in ED are a step in this direction, but not..

    Practice, practice, practice in ED PvP is often like that Tom Cruise movie, Edge of Tomorrow where you die over and over and over again to a far superior enemy, with the hopes that someday you'll be able to win a fight. It was an interesting movie, but it's really not the best gameplay mechanic.

    * emphasis mine

  5. #65
    Originally Posted by Agony_Aunt View Post (Source)
    No matter how engineered your ship, you will still lose to a better player as long as they are in a well kitted (and engineered) ship.
    I overall agree with you but this part is not true. RNGneers have greatly lowered the impact of skill requirement and impact because it allows very skill-less loadout to be very effective.
    I am a good PvP pilot who practice a lot but i can be beaten in my fully G5 engineered FAS (Hulltank + 2xPAs + 2xrails) by a new PvP pilot running an engineered FDL (prismatic + 5 shield booster stacked and full gimballed) going 4-0-2 reverski (no skill required). In stock ship there was not a single chance for a lower skilled pilot to beat me.

    This is also the reason why we made the last PvP League in stock ships with only grade 1 mod allowed per ship. We wanted to promote skill.

    My view about PvP is :
    - Before 2.1 : PvP combat were based 80% skill and 20% loadout
    - After 2.1 : PvP combat are based 20% skill and 80% loadout

    Don't get me wrong though, Engineers is really cool but it is also badly implemented :
    - It is mandatory if you want to access and compete in PvP
    - Requires heavy PvE grind (tedious and boring)
    - RNG element is killing hours of grind
    - RNG makes it hard to balance

    The double standard is PvP activity is done by a minority of players but requires to do every PvE activity in order to access it : It is meaningless but also the end game in ED.
    Before 2.1 only credits and fed/imp rank were needed to do PvP. We were able to jump in a ship, fit it and go having some pew pew fun.
    Now, you have to think about what loadout and what mod (and value) you are aiming before starting engineering your ship and pray RNGeesus in order to have the mods with values you want and don't waste your time like this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fEGFkbfBe8

    Also, specific values and % on rolls can make a huge difference. Those makes my actual loadout viable.

  6. #66
    I can tell you one thing - a new pilot wont have a prismatic shield. I dont even know where to begin with getting one!

    Im also a little bit glad theres some RNG, because some people want to spend hours grinding mats for perfect rolls.. sure I would like perfect rolls too.. but first i have to get to those engineers and then find the rare items to do it. I think you forget how far up the chain you are at the moment!

  7. #67
    While the RNG mechanics of Engineers are complete crap compared to what they COULD have done it's one of the LAST reasons for me to not play in open.

    The simple fact that any crime, from whoever is doing it has no lasting impact.

    - Killing an NPC or player is a 6000 bounty...that can be PAID...so it's essentially a FINE.
    - Loitering is punishable by DEATH
    - Law enforcement are twitchy as hell and blame others when they fly into a line of fire

    Instead there should lasting gameplay impact in the long run for ANY crime.

    - Loose faction standing when shooting a victim who has a positive standing with them (with ALL those factions)
    - Gain faction standing when shooting a victim that has a negative standing with them (with ALL those factions)
    - Same as above but with in regards to targets with WANTED tags and gain/loose against criminal/lawful factions
    - Always loose/gain standing with major factions whose pilots who are killed outside their own sphere of influence (killing someone with + standing to imperial navy in federal space gives you +standing)

  8. #68
    Originally Posted by Redomus View Post (Source)
    I can tell you one thing - a new pilot wont have a prismatic shield. I dont even know where to begin with getting one!

    Im also a little bit glad theres some RNG, because some people want to spend hours grinding mats for perfect rolls.. sure I would like perfect rolls too.. but first i have to get to those engineers and then find the rare items to do it. I think you forget how far up the chain you are at the moment!
    That actually proves his point.

  9. #69
    Originally Posted by B1rdy View Post (Source)
    But you always have that thought in the back of your head. You can be sure that the playing field is not even, not with engineered modules.
    Yes. ED is a funny beast in that to succeed at PvP you do a lot of PvE. But its not the only game like that. Ark for example is the same..... or WoW. Many games with both PvP and PvE do require a lot of work on the PvE side. Sometimes content even locked behind expansions.

    And nope, unless you are operating in some sort of tourney with rules about ships and engineering, then it will be unbalanced. Hell, it was unbalanced before Engineers. All Engineers did is exaccerbate the issue.

    Even CQC isn't fully balanced, although more balanced than the main game.

  10. #70
    Originally Posted by B1rdy View Post (Source)
    That actually proves his point.
    I know, but it also on the flip side reduces the number of people who can easily barbeque me/us at the same time. There will always be some, but I'd rather it was rather fewer than everyone after unlocking gate x or y.

  11. #71
    Originally Posted by PeLucheuh View Post (Source)
    I overall agree with you but this part is not true. RNGneers have greatly lowered the impact of skill requirement and impact because it allows very skill-less loadout to be very effective.
    I am a good PvP pilot who practice a lot but i can be beaten in my fully G5 engineered FAS (Hulltank + 2xPAs + 2xrails) by a new PvP pilot running an engineered FDL (prismatic + 5 shield booster stacked and full gimballed) going 4-0-2 reverski (no skill required). In stock ship there was not a single chance for a lower skilled pilot to beat me.
    Would that not have been a problem pre-engineers? I thought reverski has been a long time problem.

    Furthermore, they can't beat you. You can always jump out. Reverski is just a tactic that to my mind is a great opportunity to leave the fight.

    "oh, you're flight backwards. Running away are you? Hah! I win. Goodbye!"

  12. #72
    Originally Posted by joshman72nd View Post (Source)
    its there because the radar identifys the target as a pilot federation member..... all players belong to it. AI dont.

    any way thats how i justify it.
    Which is a bit of a problem and inconsistent.

    - Ships are instantly identified including an owners allegiance and local bounties

    Over the centuries the Pilots Federation has remained secretive in nature and neutral in conflicts, and has grown into one of the dominant financial superpowers of the galaxy through its GalNet data network.
    It's not exactly very secretive in nature if we all show our presence all the time. not to mention being forced to show allegiance of any kind.

    - Faction allegiance (Major, Minor, Pilots Federation, Powerplay) should require a scan.

  13. #73
    Originally Posted by That90skid View Post (Source)
    Before Engineers, gaps were skill and credits earned.

    Now, its not just skill. But RNG LUCK on your modules wins fights more than skill. However, im not talking about countered matchups.

    The time to get there is a huge issue and a major turn off for people in OPEN play. We all play the same game. But we all dont have the same time.
    I dont mind them making stuff grindy to keep a player base, but as of late. Lots of people wont play in open because of it. Or people just left the game all together due to balancing issues.

    The community, PVPERS and PVERS have been begging for changes. PEOPLE WANT TO PLAY IN OPEN. But there is no reason to with how bad everything is balanced here.
    This game rewards time spent in every factor. Not what you do with the time because of RNG and luck.
    You should be able to calculate the dmg of each ship and build. And use your skills as a wing or solo to defeat them. RNG rolls should have been static.

    Honestly its not the people in open killing each other pushing people out of open.

    Its the Balancing and time needed to learn open is whats pushing people out of open. No one gets a fair shot to learn, its too costly to keep up. Especially for someone with a job or school.

    They want to keep people playing their game. But the rewards they get for their time in game is really bad. So everyone just plays in solo or private.

    Lets be honest everyone knows what can happen to them in open play. But its too detrimental to their game play to take part in it.

    Balance all this. Make our time worth while. We nerf missions rewards like crazy. Especially credits. The next money meta will pop up. When people can be making their credits across the galaxy based of their progression in game.

    Make open less threatening and scary. Reward traders and pvpers for their time. F-IT this goes for private and solo too.

    The only reason ive got this far into this game is because I can sit down and stream it for 6-8 hours a day. Ive turned streaming into my "JOB". I've lived in a spaceship for the past 9 months. Normal people dont get to do what I do. But you have to do what I do, or have that same amount of time over the course of your gameplay to get close.

    I played World of Warcraft. Rohan and some other Korean Grindy MMO's. But at least you were rewarded for your time in those game. And it wasnt based off RNG. Sometimes I've accomplished nothing in an 8 hour day grinding materials.

    Look at this video Peleluech put up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fEGFkbfBe8

    He shouldn't be doing this to be competitive. And how long did it take to get that one set of rolls?

    Now, lets talk about something here. People are right, he doesnt "HAVE" to do this. But the way PVPers play the game, our goal is to min max so we have an advantage. But everyone should be able to get the same outcome. And people simply dont have the time for this.

    Take a piece of gear in WoW. Everyone can customize it as they see fit. But its the SAME piece of gear and every Gem and Enchant is obtainable.

    Here in elite dangerous. You have to roll the dice or play slot machine.
    _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


    We love this game. But please balance it for everyone. This not only makes it bad for people NOT PVPing because they cant put in the same time we do. But it makes it bad in the PVP world too. Trust me lots of people want to fight. But its not worth their time. And then what? Right now PVP is the biggest time sink and the biggest credit sink out there with no reward behind it to boot.

    Crime and Punishment wont mean anything if there is no one there to take part in it anyways. People are still going to die. And Top end PVPERS are still going to highwake.

    Please fix this stuff. And EVERYONE will be happy. Including the people that HATE pvpers right now. Because they would at least have a chance to learn and defend theirself.

    This is the only working game of its kind. And there are TONS of us that want to continue playing it. But its really hard to justify it sometimes. I have a really hard time recommending this game to people. I always say ITS A REALLY AWESOME GAME But.......
    Interesting indeed.

    I play in Open exclusively, always have, I don't PVP (in a traditional way), but I honestly have no problem at all with Open as it is now - That's not saying there aren't bits I'd like Fdev to work on.

    I say I don't PVP in a traditional sense because I don't go out shooting other Commanders (I just don't get a kick out of it). However, I do LOVE that some people do, and that's why I play Open.

    I like that when I see a hollow rectangle on my scanner, I got to be alert - I check my contacts list, looking at ships, making an educated guess as to what the 'potential threat' might be flying. That's balanced with where I am currently, what I'm flying and what I'm doing. That adds a spice to the game that's just not at all there in Solo play for me (the AI in Elite is really dull). I mean... I'm actually a little sad players are shown on the scanner at all, I'm be fine with everyone being a solid rectangle so you can't tell if there's another Commander out there unless you scan them.

    That's all part of the thrill of the ride. Evade them? Try to get through on luck alone? Leave and come back later? Are you better than them? Are they even there to PVP, maybe they're like you, just hoping you're not going to attack them. When I've been exploring and met another Commander randomly, there's always a little bit of a standoff while we weight each other up - are they going to attack? Are they a pirate masquerading as an explorer? Can I still run?

    While I'm not disagreeing that some changes to the imbalanced between PVP and PVE need to be looked at, for me that's more about making the upper-tier NPC's more on a par with PVP-style players. In that, if I make a ship and learn the skills to beat (for example) and NPC Elite Anaconda, that fight, the skills and equipment I need to use, should be comparable with the skills, equipment and knowledge I need to defeat a Commander Elite Anaconda.

  14. #74
    Originally Posted by That90skid View Post (Source)
    And how many of those guys you think will fly in a straight line when interdicted by a player in open?

    Some of my fellow streamers are Elite in every field. But they dont have the experience vs open players. And a lot of people never get that chance to learn because of the problems I listed above.

    Hell, i've come across some guys that wont watch the Git Gud Guide because SDC made it. Wheres mobius' tips and tricks for survival? Where are the good guys in the game? Because a lot of you cant tell the difference between Adles Armada and SDC members.

    I am aware there are engineered ships in mobius.

    They clicked open. People click open in a game with multicannons and lasers. Get shot. Go to the forums asking for help. And the first reply is. "Here is a link to mobius" With the typical name calling,psychopath, sociopath, griefer...You get the point.
    You're missing the point entirely.. As a Mopius member, we don't do PvP, we don't need PvP Training. yes we have fully engineered ships, engineered to do whatever we want.

    PvP will never be a problem for me. I don't need 'open'.. In fact delete it off the menu

  15. #75
    Originally Posted by Moribus View Post (Source)
    I like that when I see a hollow rectangle on my scanner, I got to be alert - I check my contacts list, looking at ships, making an educated guess as to what the 'potential threat' might be flying.
    While I can understand that part another side of me is annoyed about the rather blatant instant identification.

    - Faction allegiance, powerplay and wanted status should not be instantly identified by the ship ID but rather require a proper scan.

    it's a mechanic that invites PVP regardless if you seek it or not, and making it easy to find "prey" so to speak.

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