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Thread: Current PVP meta...

  1. #166
    Originally Posted by ForeverN00b View Post (Source)
    IIRC you get more total armor if you make your reactive armor heavy duty then make your smallest HRP thermal resist. This option is probably heavier too.
    K, crunched the numbers, this gives me a decent boost to explosive, a tiny boost to kinetic and gimps my thermal resist a LOT. While I realise the random nature of the rolls may cause me to see different numbers, I can't predict that, so I have to go with relative differences based on coriolis 'best' roll values, as they are a good first base.

    So to put it in simple terms (and tell me if I'm going wrong), the way I see it is...

    * With thermal resist reactive (and a necessary bit of luck on explosive resist) and all HD HRPs, I even out at exactly 56% all resistances, and effective armor 9093.
    * With a heavy duty reactive roll (and a bit of thermal bonus added on, to keep criteria fair), and one thermal 2D HRP, I get 57% exp resist, 60% kinetic resist, but lose a fairly whopping 16% thermal resist. Making hte effective armor (respectively, exp, kin, therm) 9430 (up 350ish), 10058 (up 950ish) and 6785 (down nearly 2500!!). Is this ok because nobody uses lasers in pvp? But what if someone does? lol
    * Changing another 2D G5 HRP to thermal makes everything worse than before.
    Who the hell are you? I called for the lord of flatulence, not one of his discharges. - John Constantine

  2. #167
    Originally Posted by CMDR Greg Wayne View Post (Source)
    Do note that hull builds will generally put you in an underdog situation. When using SR you generally shouldn't open fire as heat generation will be multiplied by a lot. Also, this heat build up will stay for another 5 seconds after turning SR off. It will be hard balancing the two (damage output vs being a hard target through SR).

    Heat test with PAs SRon and off.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bG_TiTmrcjk

    I used to do hull-tanks but left it behind for hybrid-FAS instead. You get extra hull and module protection, ramglove and of course helps with keeping that rice paper canopy intact. If you insist on going for it then make sure to put an AFMU on it to help with canopies (they can however easily be one-shot if unlucky).
    My build has a 4D module reinforcement and a 3D module reinforcement. Plus I don't/won't do reverski (except for a moment situationally of course), so fingers crossed my canopy will be ok.
    Who the hell are you? I called for the lord of flatulence, not one of his discharges. - John Constantine

  3. #168
    Originally Posted by Aashenfox View Post (Source)
    K, crunched the numbers, this gives me a decent boost to explosive, a tiny boost to kinetic and gimps my thermal resist a LOT. While I realise the random nature of the rolls may cause me to see different numbers, I can't predict that, so I have to go with relative differences based on coriolis 'best' roll values, as they are a good first base.

    So to put it in simple terms (and tell me if I'm going wrong), the way I see it is...

    * With thermal resist reactive (and a necessary bit of luck on explosive resist) and all HD HRPs, I even out at exactly 56% all resistances, and effective armor 9093.
    * With a heavy duty reactive roll (and a bit of thermal bonus added on, to keep criteria fair), and one thermal 2D HRP, I get 57% exp resist, 60% kinetic resist, but lose a fairly whopping 16% thermal resist. Making hte effective armor (respectively, exp, kin, therm) 9430 (up 350ish), 10058 (up 950ish) and 6785 (down nearly 2500!!). Is this ok because nobody uses lasers in pvp? But what if someone does? lol
    * Changing another 2D G5 HRP to thermal makes everything worse than before.
    Lasers are used to some extent. Usually LR builds (I dislike those a lot). However. Laz0rs have the lowest dps out there. So gimping your thermal resistance won't actually do that much of a difference. Build a full LR FDL in Coriolis and look at the DPS and calculate how long you'd fare with a constant barrage with the current effective HP vs thermal. It'll even itself out quite nicely. Explosives and kinetics are a lot more hardhitting so higher resists in those departments is quite nice.

    Also in regards to canopies: Some claim that MRPs protect canopies. I haven't seen any data to back that up yet and I will put it to the test personally to see how it stands. However, I've had canopies insta-popped with the same MRP setup as you have. You will be jousting and that means your nose will face your opponent more often than not.

  4. #169
    Thanks for the tips Greg, appreciate it. I'm decided on my build for now (though I've taken on board what you said about thermal being the least important resistance, good to know), but I won't forget you and would be interested in discussing your hybrid build in the future.
    Who the hell are you? I called for the lord of flatulence, not one of his discharges. - John Constantine

  5. #170
    Originally Posted by Aashenfox View Post (Source)
    K, crunched the numbers, this gives me a decent boost to explosive, a tiny boost to kinetic and gimps my thermal resist a LOT. While I realise the random nature of the rolls may cause me to see different numbers, I can't predict that, so I have to go with relative differences based on coriolis 'best' roll values, as they are a good first base.

    So to put it in simple terms (and tell me if I'm going wrong), the way I see it is...

    * With thermal resist reactive (and a necessary bit of luck on explosive resist) and all HD HRPs, I even out at exactly 56% all resistances, and effective armor 9093.
    * With a heavy duty reactive roll (and a bit of thermal bonus added on, to keep criteria fair), and one thermal 2D HRP, I get 57% exp resist, 60% kinetic resist, but lose a fairly whopping 16% thermal resist. Making hte effective armor (respectively, exp, kin, therm) 9430 (up 350ish), 10058 (up 950ish) and 6785 (down nearly 2500!!). Is this ok because nobody uses lasers in pvp? But what if someone does? lol
    * Changing another 2D G5 HRP to thermal makes everything worse than before.
    With your numbers I'd go with your first plan. Go with what makes sense in coriolis, although I do second what Greg said. Thermal weapons aren't as common as kinetics in PvP in my experience.

    Surprisingly, my FAS is a hulltank and I haven't had a problem with the canopy yet. I do run multiple MRPs but I'm not sure if that affects it.

  6. #171
    Originally Posted by Aashenfox View Post (Source)
    Its going to be an FAS hull build, I'm 100% sure that is the best way for me to start. I agree with everything you say about the FDL, if it were to be an FDL, I'd go full shield tank and almost no hull reinforcement.

    I'm decent with SR, I actually use it to break locks of NPCs, but again, that's something for later, I have a lot to learn before the advanced techniques. Thanks for the tips.
    Two main pvp FAS builds I see around are either four efficient plasmas or two large plasmas and two medium rails.

  7. #172
    Originally Posted by Ozram View Post (Source)
    Two main pvp FAS builds I see around are either four efficient plasmas or two large plasmas and two medium rails.
    Yeh there are a couple of really inspiring vids showing this build earlier in the thread, it looks difficult but as I've said earlier, I'm used to the FAS, I flew it a lot in solo before I got my python, and I've also played with a hull tank SR dbx build, so it's just a matter of getting better at basic techniques, then refining those I'm already familiar with. I'm really excited, I've always loved the theorycrafting.
    Who the hell are you? I called for the lord of flatulence, not one of his discharges. - John Constantine

  8. #173
    Originally Posted by Aashenfox View Post (Source)
    Yeh there are a couple of really inspiring vids showing this build earlier in the thread, it looks difficult but as I've said earlier, I'm used to the FAS, I flew it a lot in solo before I got my python, and I've also played with a hull tank SR dbx build, so it's just a matter of getting better at basic techniques, then refining those I'm already familiar with. I'm really excited, I've always loved the theorycrafting.
    Good stuff. Most do have biweaves these days, even with the option to silent run.

  9. #174
    Originally Posted by Ozram View Post (Source)
    Good stuff. Most do have biweaves these days, even with the option to silent run.
    I've thought about it, and while I can do pip management in combat, one of the nice things about a hull build is that you don't have to do that, you can fully concentrate on killing your enemy with 033 the whole battle. This is something I'm going to have to decide after trying and seeing what suits my ability best to start with. As a pip fiddler it may be better for me to run a shield, will see.
    Who the hell are you? I called for the lord of flatulence, not one of his discharges. - John Constantine

  10. #175
    Originally Posted by Aashenfox View Post (Source)
    I've thought about it, and while I can do pip management in combat, one of the nice things about a hull build is that you don't have to do that, you can fully concentrate on killing your enemy with 033 the whole battle. This is something I'm going to have to decide after trying and seeing what suits my ability best to start with. As a pip fiddler it may be better for me to run a shield, will see.
    That won't work too well in the wild. Too many people have effects these days.
    1. Emissive : not so silent running
    2. Scramble Spectrum : loads of random malfunctions
    3. Corrosive: debuffs resistances and makes all incoming damage hurt more
    4: Ruperpen Rail: module sniping

    You can do it, but all the above will pose serious threats which is why you see so few pure hull tanks there days.
    Look forward to pics.

  11. #176
    Well, they are down most of the time to be fair so they don't offer a lot of protection from special effects. I see biweaves on federal ships as nothing more than a 2 minute cooldown self heal at the expense of integrity. In some fights it will be worth it, but others not so much. As we all know there's no one build to rule them all, I'll counter some people's build and some will counter mine, but it's definitely something I'm thinking about.
    Who the hell are you? I called for the lord of flatulence, not one of his discharges. - John Constantine

  12. #177
    Originally Posted by Aashenfox View Post (Source)
    Well, they are down most of the time to be fair so they don't offer a lot of protection from special effects. I see biweaves on federal ships as nothing more than a 2 minute cooldown self heal at the expense of integrity. In some fights it will be worth it, but others not so much. As we all know there's no one build to rule them all, I'll counter some people's build and some will counter mine, but it's definitely something I'm thinking about.
    Pure hull tank doesnt work, your plant will be sniped and you will die with 60% hull.
    SR doesnt work unless you use frags. When you open fire while SR you are seen automatically.

  13. #178
    Originally Posted by Aashenfox View Post (Source)
    Thanks for the tips Greg, appreciate it. I'm decided on my build for now (though I've taken on board what you said about thermal being the least important resistance, good to know), but I won't forget you and would be interested in discussing your hybrid build in the future.
    Sure, add me in game and we can always continue discussing there.

    Originally Posted by ALGOMATIC View Post (Source)
    Pure hull tank doesnt work, your plant will be sniped and you will die with 60% hull.
    SR doesnt work unless you use frags. When you open fire while SR you are seen automatically.
    PeLucheah is going to disagree with you. With dual MRPs and armoured power plant there is going to be an 84% damage reduction for interals paired with roughly 300 hitpoints for the power plant. Trust me. It won't be sniped anytime soon. Yes, you will be targetable if you open fire in SR but tracking will remain inconsistent unless you use emissive (doesn't matter if using fixed though, the lead will show up as usual). And that goes with all weaponry. However kinetics do not produce much heat so they can be fired a bit in SRon before becoming an issue.

  14. #179
    I don't camp in SR anyway, I use it situationally, I wouldn't fire weapons (or go full thrust FA on) when SR, as stated it negates the desired effect of non-targetability.

    Rogue-like tactics aren't very 'white-knight-y' But having no shield makes situational use basically free of charge.
    Who the hell are you? I called for the lord of flatulence, not one of his discharges. - John Constantine

  15. #180
    Heh, as the following seem relevant to the current discussion over the merits of a shieldless FAS post 2.1, I'm going to link a couple of my old vids. The pros, the cons (...with apologies to those who've seen my stuff before, don't whatever you do click on those spoilers, guys...)

    A. The Pros

    "Well obliterated" - made in Beta 2.1, May 2016, the first vid afaik to show what max-engineered frags on a shieldless FAS were capable of, and the final appearance of beloved Eravate cartoon character, Fraggy McFragface:






    Watching the above again myself was quite nostalgic, but kind of weird for me to see so little side-thrust and FA-off on my part. Funny how we all progress. It's also surprising now to see how easy it was for me to make already experienced PvP-ers such as Doki Doki, Na'Qan and Arsen Cross eat the ram, back then.

    Generally speaking PvP flying is quite different, September 2017 to May 2016, for all of us, and practically a different game for most compared to 2015.


    B. The Cons

    "Bye Bye, Hull Tank Guns" - made in Jan 2017, showing the abject vulnerability of a hull tank to the wrong type of attack:






    Nothing much relevant to the key strengths/vulnerabilities shows in the vids has really changed in game since both of those vids were made, frag ammo increases and MRP introduction notwithstanding (although, vids aside, the MRP's are obviously incredibly relevant). The only point I'd make about 'The Cons' is that in the modern game, you don't need to worry too much about pack-rat spammers as they're relatively rare and can just be ignored, 1v1 ... but as others have said, you most certainly do need to be worried about super penetrator rails.
    Federal Vigilante PvP Executioner Friend and Supporter of Adle's Armada

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