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Thread: Extremely sad that I am sick of exploring...My thoughts, what about yours?

  1. #346
    Originally Posted by Micha View Post (Source)
    There was no scope for "good treasure hunting".
    There could have been. We asked for elimination instead of improvement.
    Tribalistic Fanboyism is not good for the game, any game really. I Love Elite, but don't always love the implementation of the ideas nor the development philosophy.

  2. #347
    Originally Posted by Dbrn47 View Post (Source)
    There could have been. We asked for elimination instead of improvement.
    Err, no, several of us asked for persistent and meaningful deep-space POIs. Perhaps that's where the seed of the idea for the geysers and braintrees was planted, or perhaps those features were already on the drawing board or even in-progress. Without a greater insight into the dev process we'll never know.

    Also, FDev strongly hinted that they had implemented various things for DWE to discover. Turned out there was absolutely nada. Either we didn't find it (unlikely given the amount of participants and the detail with which each waypoint and surrounding areas were scoured) or it was just baloney. In either case at the end I felt a tad bit disappointed in that aspect so I'm really REALLY glad that the community participation was there and made it a most excellent adventure indeed! But it was not thanks to FDev (apart from providing the game in the first place, of course), but due to the organisers and enthusiastic people who actually did it.

    Regardless, I'm confident that FDev is taking things on board, and that more will come in future. It's just that (a) exploration is not high priority (I wonder what percentage of players -actually- explore compared to those that just grind it for the rank; I doubt it's a large percentage of the playerbase despite the fact we're rather enthusiastic and vocal) and (b) development takes time and needs to be allocated to give the most bang for the buck; that is, features or improvements which are seen by the largest percentage of the player base.

    - Micha |CMDR Myshka Kronosky|Asp Explorer "Alacritious"|Distant Worlds CMDR #254|

  3. #348
    Originally Posted by Micha View Post (Source)
    It's just that (a) exploration is not high priority (I wonder what percentage of players -actually- explore compared to those that just grind it for the rank; I doubt it's a large percentage of the playerbase despite the fact we're rather enthusiastic and vocal) and (b) development takes time and needs to be allocated to give the most bang for the buck; that is, features or improvements which are seen by the largest percentage of the player base.
    Many polls on forums and internet sites seem to suggest that the number of explorers in Elite actually make up a sizable chunk of the community. More importantly, that many other players would like to explore but find the current state of exploration simply too barebones to enjoy. I think it's much more popular than most people realize.

  4. #349
    Originally Posted by Micha View Post (Source)
    Err, no, several of us asked for persistent and meaningful deep-space POIs. Perhaps that's where the seed of the idea for the geysers and braintrees was planted, or perhaps those features were already on the drawing board or even in-progress. Without a greater insight into the dev process we'll never know.
    Must have been reading different threads at the time.

    Originally Posted by Mengy View Post (Source)
    More importantly, that many other players would like to explore but find the current state of exploration simply too barebones to enjoy.
    I'm in that boat and have been for a while.
    Tribalistic Fanboyism is not good for the game, any game really. I Love Elite, but don't always love the implementation of the ideas nor the development philosophy.

  5. #350
    Originally Posted by Micha View Post (Source)
    I wonder what percentage of players -actually- explore compared to those that just grind it for the rank; I doubt it's a large percentage of the playerbase despite the fact we're rather enthusiastic and vocal
    I don't do anything for rank. I can name my ship "Elite" if I need to see that word on my screen. I don't even explore for credits; I only do DSS of interesting, undiscovered planets. Nope, I do it because I grew up under the teaching of James Tiberius Kirk - "Go where no man has gone before" (and hopefully see interesting sights along the way).

  6. #351
    Originally Posted by Old Duck View Post (Source)
    I don't do anything for rank. I can name my ship "Elite" if I need to see that word on my screen. I don't even explore for credits; I only do DSS of interesting, undiscovered planets. Nope, I do it because I grew up under the teaching of James Tiberius Kirk - "Go where no man has gone before" (and hopefully see interesting sights along the way).
    Seem to be out of rep for you. Been "Elite" for some time now, though it was a long time coming – roughly two years. I don't cherry-pick anything in particular and if I scan anything in a system, I scan everything in it, even the asteroid belts. Yes, still play the game by exploring primarily. Glutton for punishment, or an easily amused dullard, if you read these forums. I prefer to think I just have a lot of patience. Having a three and a half year old daughter has helped with that.

    Cheers.

    How to navigate the Crab Nebula Labyrinth → https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...bula-Labyrinth
    How to change your HUD panel colors in Windows → https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...ns-of-the-Game


  7. #352
    ERIMUS!!!! I just found stuff in the bubble discovered by Erimus! Maybe I have before, but now that name rings a big, loud bell. My fealty is yours, sir!

  8. #353
    Originally Posted by Old Duck View Post (Source)
    ERIMUS!!!! I just found stuff in the bubble discovered by Erimus! Maybe I have before, but now that name rings a big, loud bell. My fealty is yours, sir!
    Must have a few accounts or changed his Commander name on a reset? Think he tagged Beagle Point under a different name, for example.

    How to navigate the Crab Nebula Labyrinth → https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...bula-Labyrinth
    How to change your HUD panel colors in Windows → https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...ns-of-the-Game


  9. #354
    Originally Posted by marx View Post (Source)
    Hm, I guess more of this is still on-topic, but still spoiler-tagged in part to be considerate of others:
    I think that what went on with other space sims recently might have also played an important role in Frontier clamming up. There was the whole fiasco about No Man's Sky and too many promises, and there is the ongoing controversy about Star Citizen, where the developers showcase a lot of stuff that's still far from being implemented, have made an enormous amount of promises, but the reality is currently far from what many people expected. In general, across the video gaming industry, developers who have publishers have tended to clam up recently too, and only tease or announce things when they are close to release. (As opposed to hyping coming stuff years in advance.) Too many derailed hype trains.
    The thing though is that 2.4 will (supposedly) have a lot of content that's hidden, unannounced - which means we'll have to explore them. Technically. But will that content actually translate to in-game exploration? That seems to be a question which's answer might well turn out to be crucial.
    I'm sure other bits of the industry weigh on their minds as well, but it is fact they specifically *told us* they would be keeping quiet for awhile until after 2.4.

    Yes, but have you thought about just why that would be a goal? My thoughts on this: first and foremost, it's important to have a level playing field for all, and not have some players be disadvantaged because they didn't pick an overpowered ship (/ character / thing). After all, they probably picked them because they liked them more. (How they play, mostly.) Second, and just as importantly, is to have variety: variety keeps things interesting for everyone, and might even make the game appeal to a broader audience. If for example exploration strictly required an Asp or an Anaconda, people who don't like to fly either ship would become bored with it considerably faster.
    This often leads to what I like to call "the circle of balancing life": first, stuff is imbalanced, and through various steps, iterations of the balancing process, things eventually become reasonably balanced. For some time, everyone enjoys this. But then, things inevitably start to become stale, so new content and/or features are added, or existing stuff changed. Which will inevitably be imbalanced at first, so back we go to the start.
    Interestingly, this is much more of a staple for multiplayer games than single player, although there's a simple explanation for that: SP games would likely release larger updates as DLC or expansion packs instead. (*cough* Europa Universalis *cough*)
    This is also why I'm quite curious just what method FD are going to switch to from 3.0 onwards. A yearly expansion obviously didn't work out very well.
    Level playing field is absolutely important for anything involving PvP competition, something that way too many game designers these days seem to forget...I mean how much focus and time is spent on rulekeeping in real life modern-day sports, *just* to keep things fair?

    And yes, limiting tasks like exploration to only a few specific ships would be bad. Specialization is fine, though, in a balanced form. The issue I take with Engineers is, by offering such crazy levels of raw improvement, *all* ships - more or less - can be specialized. Which is anything *but* balanced.


    You can still have a journey just as long, and even through more interesting and challenging routes - it's just your total distance travelled might be longer then. If you're using an Asp or an Anaconda, that is.
    In my opinion, the best thing about synthesised FSD boosts was that they added the possibility of one-way jumps. It was a risk: if you failed to plan ahead well, your journey would end as you'd be stranded somewhere. Neutron star boosts improved upon this a bit more: you could stock up on dozens of FSD boosts in advance, but the neutron star boost was one time only. (Or supposed to be anyway, what with the double-stacking bug.) Both are good risks of failure, and entirely due to player error, not random chance or anything.
    Being able to purposefully take a meandering journey to make it longer doesn't make it any better, you could do that before Engineers too. The magic of far-away places in the galaxy remains lessened.

    As for the addition of one-way jumps being a good thing...at this point I'm considering adding a thing in my signature about Elite: Masochism. :P

    Erm, no. Beagle Point's distance to Sol didn't change. (Plus as noted above, turns out it never was the farthest possible to reach. Like I said before, it's fame is almost entirely due to DWE's brilliant marketing.) Everest is actually a pretty good real-life parallel: it still remains the highest mountain (on Earth), it's just that with the improvement(?) of infrastructure around it, it has become much easier to climb.
    The parallel for that in the Elite universe would be having outposts along the route between Sol and Beagle Point, like what's going on with Colonia.

    Which is why for mountaineers, other mountains which are somewhat smaller but considerably more difficult to climb, are more of an accomplishment now than Everest is. (Plus there are also "handicap" achievements: reach the peak without oxygen tanks, ropes set by Sherpas, and so on.)
    In Elite, there exist systems that are closer to Sol but are considerably more difficult to reach than Beagle Point, or even Semotus Beacon just a bit farther out. You can also intentionally handicap yourself, as plenty of people do.
    I don't *care* about what you can do by intentionally handicapping yourself. That's neither here nor there when it comes to making the galaxy a smaller place by virtue of 50% to 250%+ boosts to what prior to Engineers was the well-established norm....

    Like, I'm honestly losing all interest in visiting the "edge" of the galaxy anymore. The magic epic-ness of making it as far away as you can from Sol is all but gone to me. And I don't think allegorically flaying myself is going to help in that regard.

    Oh, another point about BP: while it always was 65k from Sol, and was often thought as 65k from civilization, ever since Jaques Station came back online, it's "only" ~47k from civilization now. For the farthest system from civilization, you'd want to pick one at the same maximum distance from Sol and Colonia. Or perhaps from Hell Port and Colonia. Hm, looking at EDSM, such a system might not have been visited yet.
    Fair point, I guess.

    I didn't think we were, but you were the one who brought it up. I thought you meant their overall uniqueness, since you didn't specify that that it's how unique they are in one role only.
    You wrote the following: "you pointed out the very way in which the Explorer ships are now less unique/useful, because anywhere except the very 'edges' now, any RNGineered ship will do!"
    So yes, you said the Asp / Diamondback Explorer ships are now less useful (and also less unique). But you've either changed your mind since or more likely it was a simple mistake, something you didn't mean to say, so it's a moot point now.
    You missed the other half of that quote and the quote it was responding to which has all the context for it....

    I don't know, it's not like many systems get skipped over, unless somebody's chaining neutron boosts. On the most popular routes, I pretty much always see explored systems, and only some K/M systems are entirely untouched. Which is little wonder, as the less luminous it is in general, the less likely you're going to find something interesting.
    What? The amount of systems that go untouched even on the most 'well-traveled' routes is innumerable. Sol to Sag A, or Sol to Colonia, I've gone on both journeys and practically every system I visited was Undiscovered save for maybe the last hundred LY to Colonia and maybe 1000-1500 LY around Sol (and even then, I've found unmarked systems in under 1k ly from Sol before.)

    I don't know, most people I know like to explore around certain places, survey areas, rather than just zoom to and from tourist places. Surveying specific parts, as opposed to going A-B-C and hoping to find stuff along the way. If you take a look at the EDSM traffic reports, you'll find that there are plenty of people outside the tourist points. (Do bear in mind though that many people doing such surveys only upload their data when they come back and sell it.)
    I'm aware there's plenty of that going on. But the vast majority still - as EDSM does indicate - do the A-B-C-find-stuff-along-the-way thing.

    Mm, I don't know. You can easily travel to Beagle Point through systems that have already been explored (for example, chaining neutron stars via data from EDDB): is that still exploration then?
    You have to intentionally be trying to do that to make that happen....

    Travel is wanting to go somewhere, exploration is wanting to find something. You do need to travel for exploration, of course.
    As such, the aim of improving travel is to decrease your travel time, which mostly means increasing your jump range. Meanwhile, the aim of improving your exploration is to find out where you might have better chances of finding what you're looking for. (Even if it's just a generic "I want to find something interesting", you'll still likely avoid class Y primaries!) Alternatively, if your aim is to survey a given area, then it's making your survey more efficient. (Spending less time on the galaxy map, avoiding visiting a system more than once - bless you, "visited stars" filter!)
    Improving travel time is kinda a focus of my Saving Time thread. And the jump range increase is locked behind RNGineers, whilst the exploration improvements you mention were (thank heavens) added to the base game. As I think I've said before, if they made it a base game change instead of a blueprint, I'd be less upset - it would be "We decided to make a jump-range balance change to the game" instead of "We added magic space wizards that can make your ship 50% better before in almost every way".

    Is it actually unlikely, how many people would it affect? That's something that needs to be verified before such a change is applied. You don't want to find out how many customers were affected only by the number of complaints coming your way after the change.
    I don't see any means of accurately verifying something like that in a timely manner...it's a massive galaxy to search through. Sometimes you need to *just do things* and handle the consequences as they come. That's where doing everything you can to warn players in advance comes in. Putting it on the game launcher, news articles, reddit, Galnet, whatever, there's many options they have and at some point, it's kinda the player's fault for not paying attention to game news if they did get stuck. And Suppot would still help them anyway.

    No, you misunderstand. Something being feasible means it's theoretically and practically possible to do. Something being theoretically possible might still not be practically possible to do: as such, not feasible. Let's give an exaggerated video game example: FD might announce that they had a vision that Elite 2.0 will feature Super-Fidelity, and in the name of that they'd set the minimum resolution to 4K. Possible? Yes. Feasible? No.
    Isn't this just splitting hairs? How'd we get to comparing witchspace loading screens to setting minimum resolution to 4k?

    Well, in that case, Beagle Point and Semotus Beacon would be bad places to pick, as ever since the DWE, the area has been trodden over by people. When I've recently been there, I started to frequently come across tags 5k ly out, and good luck finding anything empty within 1k now.

    Also, a week would be 168 hours, and even at launch, anybody could go to the far edge and back well within that time.
    Of course, you meant a real time period, not actual playing time. I made this just to illustrate my point: real time elapsed is not a good measure, because somebody might be playing one hour a day, while another might even do eight hours daily. Playtime elapsed is better, because it doesn't matter then whether those 12 hours were spread over five days, or just one. Actually, if Erimus back then went straight for BP and back (which he didn't, of course) he would have needed 9 hours per day, for one week. Quite a lot, in my opinion, but still entirely doable for some people. Also, in my opinion viewing (and quoting) the total time spent as opposed to the real time period it was done over is more fair to people who can't play that long amounts of time per day.
    *shrug*
    Emergent. Gameplay. Depth. Three words that all simultaneously mean anything and nothing at all. Expand your vocabulary, people!

  10. #355
    Originally Posted by WR3ND View Post (Source)
    Must have a few accounts or changed his Commander name on a reset? Think he tagged Beagle Point under a different name, for example.
    He was playing on a second account when he did the Distant Stars Expedition to Beagle Point.
    Right on!
    Eisen


  11. #356
    Originally Posted by Eisen View Post (Source)
    He was playing on a second account when he did the Distant Stars Expedition to Beagle Point.
    Distant Stars? That one was to the Cancri Cluster.

    It was the Distant Suns expedition that discovered Beagle Point (CMDR Kamzel)

  12. #357
    Originally Posted by Erimus View Post (Source)
    Distant Stars? That one was to the Cancri Cluster.

    It was the Distant Suns expedition that discovered Beagle Point (CMDR Kamzel)
    The plot thickens... Thanks for clearing that up for me, guys, I think. Never mind the roster in the beyond 65k thread, etc., etc.

    Cheers.

    How to navigate the Crab Nebula Labyrinth → https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...bula-Labyrinth
    How to change your HUD panel colors in Windows → https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...ns-of-the-Game


  13. #358
    Originally Posted by Erimus View Post (Source)
    Distant Stars? That one was to the Cancri Cluster.

    It was the Distant Suns expedition that discovered Beagle Point (CMDR Kamzel)
    Correct, I mixed those two up. Thank you.
    Right on!
    Eisen


  14. #359

    This sums it up basically for me too.

    Originally Posted by Iskariot View Post (Source)
    That is why I still have not done any serious exploring.
    I will wait a few more years, until it really becomes worthwhile.

    I will only do deep space exploring:
    1. after the space exploration/scan mechanics have been improved.
    2. when we have access to planets with volcanism
    3. when we have access to atmospheric planets
    4. when we can dive into the upper layer of gas giants.
    5. when there is more strange stuff to discover.

    What it comes down to is that there must be more to exploring in general before I will spend some serious time doing it.
    I see no reason to travel to the other side of the galaxy if I can basically see the same on this side.

    I realize this will take time and I will wait patiently.
    Nevertheless I might reach Elite in exploration well before all that, because I diligently scan systems in and around the bubble. I am 'already' Ranger at the moment.
    This however may take a great deal of time. The problem with atmospheric planets and gasgiants is that they require a minimum realistic weather representation. And while for gas giants you only have the weather, for solid worlds you also have ground erosion and interaction of the weather with the surface in all possible ways. Add to this liquid oceans (doesn't have to be water all the time) and imagine the mayhem for the poor programmer(s). You understand now why it is difficult and why it may take years to code.

    Yes I am also disappointed and can feel for Dr.Kaii. For the same reasons. And for those reasons (and personal real life issues - very limited time and stamina to play after 10-12 hrs of per-day work) I have yet to join a big expedition. Relating to this I think Frontier made an additional mistake: They gave us the whole galaxy from day 1. Actually not even from day 1. From gamma day one. So we ended up having CMDRs rushing to SagA* before the launch of E: D ver: 1.00. And the 1st distant stars expedition taking place during the 1st weeks of 1.00 (not 100% sure about the exact time period but still it was during season 1)? Come on give me a break.. Frontier gave us the garden of exploration-Eden and put no serious restrictions (apart from the still inaccessible areas). And the issue was and is that this 400bn stars garden was and still is unfinished. Yes I can go to the other side of the galaxy, only to see the same beige worlds. Not even accretion discs? Come on.. Vladimir Romanuyk, SE sole creator, has managed to implement them (2D but still looking awesome). And 100+ Frontier employees can not??? Not that this would solve the problem but you get the point. Just take a look at the forthcoming Space Engine 0.981: Procedural nebulae of unprecedented quality. It blows E: Ds rendering to pieces. AND @ 32bit!! (yes it doesn't have network support yet, yes it is not a game yet but, yet, it is made by one guy..- you get the point)

    So yes when I look at E: Ds blurry galaxy background (which used to be crispier and with higher resolution - but nerfed so that hyperjump sequence stuttering was reduced) in E: D I think to myself: wait. patience young padawan. The question is: how much patience master Yoda?:



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