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Thread: Analyzing the Asp Scout - Why does it have it's WEIRD stats.

  1. #31
    Originally Posted by Deggial View Post (Source)
    But I always wanted to try out every ship in the game and now I've bought and (halve-way) outfitted an Asp Scout as my "Light Thargoid-Interaction-Ship".

    - The large jump range was one reason for this idea, as I expect the hotspot outside the bubble.
    - The class 4 PD was another reason for it, as I wanted to stick to energy weapons (few restock possibilities out there). They will obviously be replaced with dedicated anti-Thargoid weapons when available.
    - A class 4 Prismatic Shield leaves room for a class 5 fuel scoop - even faster traveling!
    - The class 3 SCB doesn't refill the shield at all, but what shall you do?
    - I could use a second SCB, but the second class 3 compartment is used for an AFMU. It might be needed out there.
    - Reinforced Alloy is a compromise between jump-range and protection and will be engineered as soon as somebody finds out how to temper bulkheads against caustic damage.

    It's not a heavy damage dealer, but I'll see how well he does - and if he doesen't, at least the rebuy is cheap!
    I know I keep saying the same thing but I reckon another ship worthy of comparing the AspS to is the DBX.

    Most people seem to regard the DBX quite highly - and it is a useful, tough, little ship - but the AspS is better at pretty-much everything an up-armored DBX can do.
    The only time the DBX does better is if you're stripping it down for jump-range, to use as a bubble-hopper or explorer.

    Again, the only problem is the AspS costs a lot more so most people will have already bought a DBX and put that to work doing any job the AspS might be good at.
    I used to use a DBX as my scavenger ship and it was okayish at that but, for the times when you dive into a USS and get attacked, the AspS is much better.

  2. #32
    With her mass a C4 shield is all you need, you're already below opt. mass.
    You'd rather hull tank anyways and want as low power usage as possible to keep heat low, Bi-Weaves are the better option imo.

    [Asp Scout Mass: around 220t - 275t (with fuel and cargo)]
    [C4 shields: Mass 143/285/713t]

  3. #33
    Originally Posted by mr.Gr3y View Post (Source)
    With her mass a C4 shield is all you need, you're already below opt. mass.
    You'd rather hull tank anyways and want as low power usage as possible to keep heat low, Bi-Weaves are the better option imo.

    [Asp Scout Mass: around 220t - 275t (with fuel and cargo)]
    [C4 shields: Mass 143/285/713t]
    But ... but ... I've just spend 4 weeks in the service of the blue haired lady to get my hands on these prismatic wonders!

    But yea, power is an issue!

    Initially, I used bi-waved shields and everything was fine (power-wise). With the Prismatic shield, I had to engineer my PP, which somehow counters the idea of low-heat. Maybe I should take a step back and limit myself to standard shields; thanks for the advice!

    Bi-waves, I am not a friend of. With the new introduction of the reboot-effect on shields, they've lost their main attraction a little bit. And honestly, I want as much protection when facing the 'goids as I can get (Caveat: meduim bulkheads. Bad enough - but shields are even more important now!)

    --

    Edit: Oh, and the ship is named "Tyr", after the Germanic god of fight and victory. Possibly a bit optimistic, but maybe it helps ...
    ◄ Furthermore, I consider that 1st class cabins should be limited to dedicated passenger ships and Carthage must be destroyed. ►



  4. #34
    Originally Posted by Stealthie View Post (Source)
    I tend to think it's futile to try and make logical sense of the ship stat's in ED.

    For the most part, FDev have done a fairly decent job of "balancing" the ships but it's been achieved using hidden buffs & nerfs rather than as a result of consistent, plausible, ship design.

    People's lack of interest in the AspS is a bit unwarranted IMO. It is, basically, pretty similar to the Cobra 3 and the Viper 4 and those ships are pretty well-regarded.
    I guess the problem is that most people have already got a Cobra 3 or a Viper 4 so there's little reason to use an AspS as well.

    Personally, I use my AspS as a materials scavenger.
    Decent jump-range, agility and internal space means it's useful for scooping mat's and goodies from orbit and deploying an SRV on the surface.
    And, if you drop into a USS where people aren't happy to see you, it's armor means it's better than a DBX.
    To me the issue with is is really that there is no role at all that I can identify in the game for a 'scout' ship that can't be performed equally well or better by even a basic exploration ship. Perhaps if people could define what they mean by 'a scout' it would help; I mean I know what a scout aircraft is supposed to do IRL but there is no gameplay at all in E D that maps to that.

  5. #35
    Asp Scout really suffers from having only 2 utility mounts, when both Diamondbacks have 4 and even Keelback and Type 6 have 3. IMO it needs either more speed or third utility mount to be proper upgrade to preceding ships. Or additional small hard point.

    Originally Posted by mr.Gr3y View Post (Source)
    With her mass a C4 shield is all you need, you're already below opt. mass.
    You'd rather hull tank anyways and want as low power usage as possible to keep heat low, Bi-Weaves are the better option imo.

    [Asp Scout Mass: around 220t - 275t (with fuel and cargo)]
    [C4 shields: Mass 143/285/713t]
    Shield strength doesn't care about your fuel and cargo, only about your hull mass, which is 150 in Asp Scout.

  6. #36
    Originally Posted by Red Anders View Post (Source)
    To me the issue with is is really that there is no role at all that I can identify in the game for a 'scout' ship that can't be performed equally well or better by even a basic exploration ship. Perhaps if people could define what they mean by 'a scout' it would help; I mean I know what a scout aircraft is supposed to do IRL but there is no gameplay at all in E D that maps to that.
    In my opinion, a scout should be a little bit more combat orientated than an explorer. It's a military role after all, and even if he shouldn't seek confrontation, he might not be able to avoid it.

    The poroposals regarding hard points in this thread therefore seem to be reasonable, imo.
    At least, as a theoretical idea. I can't see FDev changing the whole 3D model to implement them, even if they would agree with it.
    ◄ Furthermore, I consider that 1st class cabins should be limited to dedicated passenger ships and Carthage must be destroyed. ►



  7. #37
    Originally Posted by Red Anders View Post (Source)
    To me the issue with is is really that there is no role at all that I can identify in the game for a 'scout' ship that can't be performed equally well or better by even a basic exploration ship. Perhaps if people could define what they mean by 'a scout' it would help; I mean I know what a scout aircraft is supposed to do IRL but there is no gameplay at all in E D that maps to that.
    Yep,

    I think I mentioned that in this thread (or perhaps another one).
    Surely it couldn't be that hard to modify some of the current missions (scan missions, item recovery missions etc) to include elements which would favour a "scout" ship?

    The main hurdle would be that the game probably doesn't have any specific way to mark "scout ships" as being especially suited to any specific job though.
    Perhaps it'd be as simple as adding a "stealth" variable to the ship stat's?
    Give the AspS and DBS a high "stealth" rating and they immediately become the go-to ship for any mission where being scanned is an insta-fail.

  8. #38
    Originally Posted by Stealthie View Post (Source)
    ...
    The main hurdle would be that the game probably doesn't have any specific way to mark "scout ships" as being especially suited to any specific job though.
    Perhaps it'd be as simple as adding a "stealth" variable to the ship stat's?
    Give the AspS and DBS a high "stealth" rating and they immediately become the go-to ship for any mission where being scanned is an insta-fail.
    Or - and here my long-term crusade gets triggered (sorry for that! ) - there could be some new, ship specific modules introduced.
    In this case: a special scanner, limited to "Scout" ships, that is able to detect otherwise undetectable information. Don't ask me what exactly... maybe hacking board computers, detecting jump-in signatures and find out where ships come from (instead of where they go). Or simply a tool necessary to fulfill the special scout missions without any further explenation. ANYTHING that makes the scouts unique and special in comparison to other ships. (But still optional to outfit, if not desired by the pilot due to other role ideas.)
    ◄ Furthermore, I consider that 1st class cabins should be limited to dedicated passenger ships and Carthage must be destroyed. ►



  9. #39
    Originally Posted by Deggial View Post (Source)
    In my opinion, a scout should be a little bit more combat orientated than an explorer. It's a military role after all, and even if he shouldn't seek confrontation, he might not be able to avoid it.

    The poroposals regarding hard points in this thread therefore seem to be reasonable, imo.
    At least, as a theoretical idea. I can't see FDev changing the whole 3D model to implement them, even if they would agree with it.
    Except they do not have to change the AspS 3d model to implement them.

    While not the exact position of the AspX small mounts it already have 2 more hatches that could hold small mounts.

    CMDR: Thomas Ramirez

  10. #40
    Originally Posted by Deggial View Post (Source)
    In my opinion, a scout should be a little bit more combat orientated than an explorer. It's a military role after all, and even if he shouldn't seek confrontation, he might not be able to avoid it.

    The poroposals regarding hard points in this thread therefore seem to be reasonable, imo.
    At least, as a theoretical idea. I can't see FDev changing the whole 3D model to implement them, even if they would agree with it.
    This is pretty much what I see the role as in most games - essentially a light combat ship primarily concerned with recon and the resulting tactical advantage that it delivers to the main force but able to fight a bit a bit if needed.

    That's the entire problem though - there is no gameplay in E D for that role whatsoever, other than whatever is created by a player's own internal roleplay narrative.

    If you have any chance at all of combat in whatever you're doing there is no reason not to just fly a combat ship or a combat capable multi-role. There is no recon gameplay whatsoever; the closest you can find is probably having a look at a planetary base before you land to scan it (in the SRV, not your scout ship...) and in those cases you're not going to be attacking anything in your ship so you can in fact just use an explorer build, or indeed anything else.

    (Hilariously we did actually have gameplay that was literally perfect for light scout craft - clearing out the skimmers and other defences around a planetary base before landing and heading in with the SRV. It used to be good fun actually, I built a Cobra Mk4 specifically to do it. Unfortunately FDev then decided that 'play your own way' didn't apply here and 'we only want you to be able to kill these things from an SRV because reasons and no it's totally not dumb honest' and decided the way to deal with the issue was to not only make skimmers untargetable by ships (!) but also make them explode with such ferocity that they can take out the shields on an Asp and disable its thrusters, despite the fact that I can shoot one from 15m away in the SRV without a scratch.)

    In space, the concept of scouting within the game as it stands is a non-starter because there is nothing to scout to begin with. You can't scout a POI without dropping into it and at that point we're back to my first line - if you have any chance at all of combat there is no reason not to fly a combat ship to begin with.

    I guess that's the main reason why the Asp Scout is the least popular ship, it's basically a dog looking for a lamp post. I would really like FDev to have a look at the mess they made of air to ground combat gameplay because I was actually hoping for it to be expanded back when planetary landings first arrived, whereas FDev seem to have just gone 'Oops that was a mistake' and deleted it.

  11. #41
    My main issue with the Scout is it has average small ships stats but is medium size. The problem with this is that in combat due to slow speed and larger size it takes loads more hits than the Cobra, which means stronger shields and hull don't count for much as it just dies faster.

    Combare it to other multirole ships in the same league - Cobra III, Cobra IV, DBS, DBX and AspX - and every single one of them has some significant advantage over the AspS. The Cobra III and DBS are smaller and faster but with similar weaponry. The Cobra IV is smaller and has more guns. The DBX loses at maneuverability but is smaller, has better guns, much better jump range and is just as tough. The AspX is better at everything except maneuverability. Overall there's just nothing to make the AspS worth owning.

    The really perplexing thing is that if you compare it's stats side by side with the DBX you can only conclude it has a load of empty space inside as it's twice the size but they're remarkably similar in terms of internals.

  12. #42
    Originally Posted by Stealthie View Post (Source)
    I know I keep saying the same thing but I reckon another ship worthy of comparing the AspS to is the DBX.

    Most people seem to regard the DBX quite highly - and it is a useful, tough, little ship - but the AspS is better at pretty-much everything an up-armored DBX can do.
    The only time the DBX does better is if you're stripping it down for jump-range, to use as a bubble-hopper or explorer.
    This isn't true though. Compare these two ships, both non-engineered A-rated for combat:

    A rated AspS: 28,895,990cr:
    https://coriolis.edcd.io/outfit/asp_...bn=Combat%20AS

    A rated DBX: 22,679,826cr:
    https://coriolis.edcd.io/outfit/diam...n=Combat%20DBX

    Price: DBX wins.
    Speed: DBX wins.
    Jump range: DBX massive win.
    Shields: Asp marginal win, but bigger target so they'll drop quicker
    Integrity: Asp marginal win, but bigger target so it'll die quicker
    Weapons: Marginal win for DBX
    utilities: Win for DBX due to two extras.

    Now, tell me again how the Asp S is better? It turns faster but that's it.

  13. #43
    Originally Posted by Snarfbuckle View Post (Source)
    This ship is looked at as a "bad" ship and i wanted to see WHY and making a straight comparison with the AspX cannot be done so I added the Cobra MkIII since it is very close in mass with it and armament.

    Asp Scout (Base Stats from ED Shipyard)

    Size: Medium
    Maneuvering: 50% better Yaw than the Cobra MkIII and 10% better Roll than the MkIII / Overall better maneuvering than the AspX
    Mass: 20% lighter than the Cobra MkIII / 86% lighter than the AspX
    Core Internals: Equivalent size with Cobra MkIII except S4 Power Distributor and Sensors - so +2 points
    Optional Internals: Equivalent points to the Cobra MkIII (18) and 33% less than the AspX
    Speed (Unladen / 0 pips): 10% slower than the AspX and 27% slower than the Cobra MkIII
    Jump Range: 14% shorter than the AspX and 11% longer than the Cobra MkIII
    Hardpoints: Similar to the Cobra MkIII
    Armour: 33% more than the Cobra MkIII and 17% less than the AspX
    Shields: 12% more than the Cobra MkIII and 45% less than the AspX
    Hardness: Equal to the AspX and 33% more hardness than the Cobra MkIII
    Heat: Fairly low heat generation compared to other ships

    Speed / Boost / Maneuverability
    As a "Scout" it can perform the role with a relatively useful jump range between 20 to 30 LY depending on engineering. Speed is more problematic as we basically need a DD5 to reach the non-engineered Cobra MkII 2pip speed but stays at a speed of 227 with 2 pips and a boost of 412 with not much else upgraded.

    At the same time, it has 33% more armour while having 20% less mass AND 2 points higher total core internals. So even with a DD5 it's a scout that can gain a moderate jump range but cannot RUN when needed except for a possible high wake...

    Maneuverability wise it's better on both Yaw and Roll than the MkIII and a medium sized ship so it's a nimble dogfighter for it's size class.

    Armament
    While equivalent of the Cobra MkIII i honestly think it should have kept the armaments of the AspX to give it an edge due to it's slow speed, making it a highly efficient medium sized but rather slow dogfighter or at least reduced the mediums to small so it had X6 small hardpoints making it a defensive anti-light ship dogfighter.

    Defenses
    Tanking gives us a bit of a problem too, it's shields are at best a secondary defense since it is slow and have a lot more armour so it becomes a slow armour brawler.

    In order to use that more efficiently we need to add more mass with module and hull reinforcement instead of shields. Utilizing B rated modules strangles our speed and jump range so we sit at 220 speed and 400 boost while reaching 2750 effective hitpoints with a reinforced powerplant and a pair of module boosters. Our jump range becomes a moderate 22LY.

    And that is with everything top-notch engineered...

    http://www.edshipyard.com/#/L=A0j0,F...pDEqpDIqpD20m0

    Thoughts
    So, is this a SCOUT? or a medium sized armour tanked dogfighter? Well, it's the second LEAST armoured medium ship before we reach the light league of ships but at the same time the 9th LIGHTEST ship of all ships. But even with all that it's a ship that is a bit hard to wedge into a useful niche due to the rather extensive engineering required to make it...well...better than the other choices we could have.

    Conclusion
    It's not a BAD ship but being a gutted AspX i still think it's size should have something MORE than merely maneuverability and armour - instead of making it a medium sized, slow, armour tanked Cobra MkIII with poor jump range.
    A lot of the ships make little sense. Look at the Anaconda. The Diamondback Explorer still has odd stats. They should be made to a formula like the old Traveller RPG, so things made actual sense. But from what I can see they make up the stats as they go along.

  14. #44
    Originally Posted by cptdavep View Post (Source)
    This isn't true though. Compare these two ships, both non-engineered A-rated for combat:

    A rated AspS: 28,895,990cr:
    https://coriolis.edcd.io/outfit/asp_...bn=Combat%20AS

    A rated DBX: 22,679,826cr:
    https://coriolis.edcd.io/outfit/diam...n=Combat%20DBX
    Seems like a bit of an "edge case" scenario to me.

    More realistically, it's basically a case of needing to go to the next-higher grade of armour to make the DBX as tough as a an AspS, which reduces it's jump-range to within a couple of Ly of the AspS.

    In my own case, I'm not sure what mod's I did but I had a DBX which I used for scavenging and indulging in any PvE combat that might involve and I replaced it with an AspS which has better armour and shields, more cargo space and a slightly higher jump range.

    I'll grant you that the DBX does still come out marginally ahead in that sort of role, before engineering, and the DBX is a much, much, cheaper ship which can do pretty-much all the same things (with a lower cargo capacity) so the AspS probably isn't the "logical" choice but I know it can be preferable to a DBX in that role - IF cost isn't an issue.

  15. #45
    Originally Posted by Red Anders View Post (Source)
    ... That's the entire problem though - there is no gameplay in E D for that role whatsoever, other than whatever is created by a player's own internal roleplay narrative. ...
    Indeed.

    Well, the fast traveling combat ship ("light", in the case of the current scout ships or "heavy" in the case of a hypothetical long rang Python or Vulture) would still be viable role. But the benefits are small enough, as pointed out in this thread.

    That's why I still hope for a future implementation of a military career in ED. All sorts of interesting missions would be thinkable - including dedicated scout missions. If the 'S' ships would shine in these missions, that is.
    With the imminent arrival of tge Thargoids, the chances are bigger than ever that this sort of game play is likely, thoug.

    I am still optimistic! (My largest weakness, I guess) ...

    --

    @ Snarfbuckle:
    Oh! Well then ...
    FDev? Wouldn't it be nice? And so reasonable, too!
    ◄ Furthermore, I consider that 1st class cabins should be limited to dedicated passenger ships and Carthage must be destroyed. ►



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