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Thread: A Message To Elite Dangerous Developers

  1. #61
    plus living on a tropical island...
    I would love to live on a tropical island!
    Great post by the way, can't believe how many people are complaining about having to read on a message forum - gosh darn Twitter and the tidal wave of idiocracy.
    RNG, the tedious grind and lack of any new planet landings finally made me walk.

  2. #62
    Originally Posted by Franc Kaos View Post (Source)
    RNG, the tedious grind and lack of any new planet landings finally made me walk.
    And yet here you are...


  3. #63
    Finally managed to get through the entire thing. Some things I agree with. Most I don't. Many of those are a matter of taste. For example, I happen to like the timed missions, because they provide one more opportunity to fail in this game, and IMO failure makes success much more fun. I also cannot understand how ANYONE could play this game while watching Netflix. There's WAY too much to do in the game during my typical play session, things that need my attention, to want a distraction like that. It was like this even before I got a VR headset, now its ten times worse, because I'm sitting in a spaceship's bridge, not looking at a space ship's bridge through a tiny window on my desk.

    My philosophy in this game has always been this: A ship is a tool you use to accomplish your goals in this game. It should not be a goal in and of itself. You use the right tool for the right job. Don't buy a $500 pneumatic nail gun when all you need is a $2 hammer. My first goal is always to have fun. My second is to not break character while playing the game (see my first goal) by meta-gaming, using out of game knowledge, or using exploits. My third is to help spread the light of civilization, freedom, and prosperity throughout the Galaxy.

    One of my chief complaints with this game is that "progression" (I use the term loosely) is now too fast. Since credits are so easy to come by, even without using "get rich quick" schemes, new players pretty much skip the "starter" ships entirely. Which is a pity, because those small ships are perfect for building the skills you need to thrive in the game, as well as experimenting as you try to do what you love in the game. Every single thing in the game, with the exception of ship-launched fighters, can be done in a Sidewinder.

    A prime example of this is the lowly Hauler. At this time, it is just as good an exploration ship as an Asp Explorer or Anaconda, because you can bring everything you need to go exploring in it. However, with an Exploration Hauler, 90% of its cost is exploration equipment, and 10% of its cost is the stuff needed to get that equipment out into the black. Compare this to the AspX, which is 5% exploration equipment, and 95% the stuff you need to get it out there, or the Anaconda where your exploration equipment doesn't even register as a tenth of a percent of its overall cost.

    This accelerated "progression" in the game results in scenarios like the OPs, where the player literally had too much ship for their relative experience in the game. The result is that rather than making their mistakes in a ship with a rebuy cost of 20k credits, they're making those same mistakes in a ship with a rebuy cost of 8 million credits.

  4. #64
    Originally Posted by Mohrgan View Post (Source)
    So what your saying is; that your insight was based on an in depth understanding of the game, and it is worthy of my complete attention? I got it. Message received.
    No, not at all...

    ... But given that the majority of people who read it at least in part past the introduction have agreed on at least some, if not most of the points I've made, even the more experienced members...

    ... So then does it matter? Does it matter that I'm not that experienced at this game if those who ARE are agreeing with a lot of what I have to say on the subject? Furthermore, if I am wrong about something, does it matter that someone mentions it after my I made my take on the game? Does being snarky to me about something seem like the right approach to enlighting a player as to how things really work? Because you know what, that sounds more like a superiority complex than anything else.

    Now, it's worth noting a few aspects of your behavior that's disconcerting.

    a.) you have already stated that by mere virtue of being long winded, I am not worth your time, and have come to the predetermined conclusion that nothing I said in it is valid.

    b.) Despite my OP not being worth your time and effort reading, you continue to spend time and effort to try to undermine what I have to say in the OP... The one you never read, and thus have no context about

    c.) My lack of experience is already apparent to those who actually bothered to read the OP, and funnily enough, the ones who actually read it are for the most part, the only ones who haven't flown off the handle in the way that you have. Most are polite, and either agree with me on certain points, or disagree and calmly explain why. You are building a strawman, as at no point did I claim to be an expert.

    Thus, my only conclusion is that you are here to tout some level of superiority, for personal reasons, and contribute nothing of value to the conversation.

    It's simple... If you have already come to the conclusion that nothing I've said in the OP is valid simply because of where I'm at experience wise, then leave. You have added nothing to this conversation. I am open to the possability that there's some things I'm missing, you don't need to sit there and rub it in my face just because you don't like the fact that I wrote a lot.

    No... No, I don't have a lot of experience with the game... But anybody else I've talked to, people who are/were NEW to it, either struggle in similar ways that I have, or have long since quit the game because of a lot of the issues I talked about. So if there's all this other content that new players don't know about, then there also seems to be a fundemental problem of new players finding ways to access it or learn it.

  5. #65
    Your length of time in the game has no bearing on the validity of your opinion or critique.

  6. #66
    The OP was too long too read in full.

    The thrust seems to be that the game mechanics are not balanced and do not respect the player's time. Certainly, the OP is not the first, and will not be the last, to complain about those things. However, reading his summary of the events, I was left with the clear impression that it was largely due to poor ship and mission choice. The OP did not have enough money to fully outfit the Beluga or the pay the re-buy and stacked difficult missions that were time consuming in the hope of getting a bigger reward. In the end, he ran out of time and did complete the missions and ultimately lost his ship.

    So, TBH I can't say I agree with the OP or have a lot of sympathy, but I do understand his frustration. My suggestion is take a break, then return to the game with a fresh outlook. Set smaller goals, achieve them and move to the next level, rather than concentrate a single goal and grind. With missions, take time to get allied with your home factions to get better mission choices and rewards, try smaller ships suited for the mission type and mix it up. Importantly, do the things you like and can complete in the time available.

  7. #67
    Originally Posted by Kerrash View Post (Source)
    Your length of time in the game has no bearing on the validity of your opinion or critique.
    Yes.... quite.

    Originally Posted by Darkfyre99 View Post (Source)
    This accelerated "progression" in the game results in scenarios like the OPs, where the player literally had too much ship for their relative experience in the game. The result is that rather than making their mistakes in a ship with a rebuy cost of 20k credits, they're making those same mistakes in a ship with a rebuy cost of 8 million credits.
    The short version is: Fly without insurance and you risk all.

    Blaming the game mechanic(s) because you choose to fly with that risk is not a very valid argument at all.

    This type of scenario happens regularly around here:



    That being said I thank you, OP, for not paraphrasing your comments as if you speak for everyone.... much appreciated but really tl:dr.

  8. #68
    Originally Posted by metascrawl View Post (Source)
    I have to address this bit. Considering your views are simply the views of one player, however many good points you might have made, to expect the devs to turn up and enter into a full-on dialogue with you is a little much. And expecting them to "take a break" is crazy, and no it does not represent the feelings of "most players." Do you think that what you have written is such an original take on things that the devs need to stop everything they are doing and consider it before proceeding?

    Furthermore, you have no idea what they have planned for future updates. For 3.0 they say they will be working on improving the core gameplay, which seems to be exactly what you want. And considering you were so impressed with Horizons, I'd have thought you'd have every reason to be hopeful. The devs are not perfect, and by all means continue to give them feedback. But to suggest that they should "take a break" is a little too much like telling them how to do their job.
    No, I don't expect them to do that. I titled it the way I did, and made that comment, in the hopes they would, but I have zero expectations of a dev coming in here to talk about it. And I KNOW what I've written is by far not original. I've seen most of what I said, said elsewhere in some form or another. And yes, I realize that not every player has the same problems with the game I do, or the same experiences with it that I have had. In fact, I've addressed, in the OP in many places, the fact that these are issues for only some players.

    However, what I have noticed, is a large demographic of players who have quit this game. I've seen it in other gaming forums, and in real life. In fact, none of the people I work with, or play games with will even touch this game, except for one, purely because they've run into a lot of the issues I have had... These are players who normally would not be here to say "yes, I have had these issues as well". The issues I ran into are the kinds that would make many players quit, They HAVE made many players quit.

    So... No... That OP was never intended to speak on YOUR behalf, in fact, I intended it more to be just a window into just my personal issues with the game. And I apologize if it came off as me trying to speak for the entire fan base, as that was never my intention. Perhaps I should have made that more clear. The reason I said things like "most players" in the OP is because, from what I've seen, many players, both those who have quit, and those are still here, have run into at least a few of them. Even you yourself have said there are at least a few things in the OP you think are good points.

    As for future plans... Well.. Yeah. I did like Horizons... but ultimately, it didn't change anything. What's there to do on planet surfaces? "Oh yeah, the same things you've been doing up in space up till now... Go here and do some little chore."

    ... Basically... Horizons is a nice addition to the game, but it builds on a system that is fundamentally flawed. It suffers from these problems just as much as the game did before. When I said "take a step back", what I mean is, they should re-evaluate the core game-play mechanics, even if that delays future content like Horizons.

    And honestly... I have my doubts about 3.0. I certainly hope that it'll fix the game's issues... But the game's been out for a long time, and these issues have been around for long before I joined... So is this really going to change now? And this IS a big thing to change too, some of what I criticized was seriously core components to the game. Is it even possible to make those changes, especially in a single patch like 3.0? That's what I'm worried about most.

  9. #69
    Originally Posted by Hat Man View Post (Source)
    ...people who are/were NEW to it, either struggle in similar ways that I have, or have long since quit the game because of a lot of the issues I talked about. So if there's all this other content that new players don't know about, then there also seems to be a fundemental problem of new players finding ways to access it or learn it.
    ED does indeed have quite a steep learning curve. But I suspect that this is in part because it's unlike most (all?) other games around - aka unfamiliar.

    If I buy a FPS I know pretty much how it will play, and broadly 'what to do'. Similarly with a RTS. But Elite requires starting from zero. Even for those coming from earlier Elite games.

    I'd not disagree that the early stages in ED can be challenging, although the majority of reviews from the latest influx of new players (PS4 players) suggests the balance isn't too bad. YMMV, and that's fine.

    That some aspects of the game benefit from doing some research outside the game is I think a fair criticism, but I do also think that FDev has done a decent job to reduce this necessity. Other aspects still, imho, need work, for example finding the Alien sites, where it seems to me the only solution is to read-up on the locations outside of the game - I think this is undesirable, so perhaps a 'reference library' function when docked could help here. Similarly much better surface exploration tools, but I'm getting off topic. However you could level the same flavour of complaint against almost any game, especially when trying to 'collect all collectables', or such.

    I hope you stick with Elite and find your way in - if you need any encouragement, just have a looks at the screenies thread.

  10. #70
    Originally Posted by Hat Man View Post (Source)
    But the game's been out for a long time, and these issues have been around for long before I joined... So is this really going to change now? And this IS a big thing to change too, some of what I criticized was seriously core components to the game. Is it even possible to make those changes, especially in a single patch like 3.0? That's what I'm worried about most.
    And some of us really enjoy the game anyway - a hell of a lot more than you do, it seems. You don't like the game as it stands, and you're far from sure that fixing it to your satisfaction is even possible. I really don't know what to tell you - you're spending an awful lot of time on a game that you merely want to like. Which is fine if that's your choice, but personally I'd just try one of the million other products or activities available. Life is short.

  11. #71
    Originally Posted by Darkfyre99 View Post (Source)
    This accelerated "progression" in the game results in scenarios like the OPs, where the player literally had too much ship for their relative experience in the game. The result is that rather than making their mistakes in a ship with a rebuy cost of 20k credits, they're making those same mistakes in a ship with a rebuy cost of 8 million credits.
    You make some excellent points. Yes, taking advantage of that exploit led to me learning a hard lesson on a much more pricey ship than I would have playing normally.

    And I can also see your point about progression being faster for starter ships. I pretty much jumped straight into a viper IV from the sidewinder.

    Honestly, I could enjoy the game just fine at where the progression rate sits currently, or even slower, as you seem to prefer. But my main criticism where that is concerned is that this game seems to lack some game-play that I find satisfying, which is why I focused on progress far more than I should've. I wouldn't care about progress as much if the game just rewarded you for going out and exploring random planets a little more. I dunno, maybe that actually is more rewarding, but from what I've seen so far cartographics don't pay as much as missions in my admittedly thus far limited exploration, and long duration missions have infeasible mission timers for my lifestyle.

    And I can fully understand wanting to be fully immersed in the game. Some of what I had to say absolutely was a matter of taste. But as I explained, it's all about options... Would the game giving me the option of using an autopilot on long hauls, or using an in-game media player to pass the time, detract from your experience currently given that those are options you don't need to avail yourself of? Maybe if the options gave other players a major advantage over you in open play. But those options don't seem to particularly give a major advantage to other players over you. In fact, quite the opposite, I mentioned some drawbacks to using autopilot that could be implemented to help balance it. Hell, you might find yourself the better in combat simply because of greater flying experience.

  12. #72
    I mean, let's take one example: I started at the end of June.

    I am now flying an A-rated Imperial Cutter, with enough banked to buy another, modules and all.

    I did this, by "getting gud" and developing the ability to careen into the mail slot in a Python at 200 m/s+ with a heat sink firing, and chaff if I need it. And also? NOT TAKING ILLEGAL MISSIONS, or having ANY outstanding bounties. Mostly just a mind-numbing amount of Quince. I like mining and missions, but mining requires too much busywork, and missions do not scale up to medium/large ships well, at all.

    I have lost a very large number of Eagles, and a couple other small ships, mostly (but not all) deliberately. I take the missions that I know I can accomplish, and don't leave timed missions on the days when I have to work 12-hour shifts, or expect the game to work around my schedule.

    I haven't flown without rebuy, ever. I cannot conceive of how you thought it was okay to half-___ a Beluga. You should have run a Dolphin, that would have let you zip into the slot. You should have popped a heat sink, or chaff. You should have circled the station and come in straight at the mail slot. You maybe should have used silent running.

    You did none (or very few) of those things. The death of your Beluga and the ensuing setback is ENTIRELY YOUR FAULT.


    Though frankly, the boringness of trucking around systems grinding a HUGE list of arbitrary material for engineering is starting to make me open up other games, instead of Elite. Not to mention that fact that I could get a lot of stuff, but the limit is SO low for how many different items you will need for various things. I leave things to rot the bulk of the time.

    That, and I keep my butt out of open, because FD has proven they cannot balance their game competently.

  13. #73
    Originally Posted by vindelanos View Post (Source)
    What? That's incorrect, OP. You can make money doing just about anything. Wingmate of mine who has been playing since just before 2.3 dropped, and certainly not every day, just came back from an explo trip in his AspX and made about 180M.... he's sitting on something like 250M in cash. Guy only did 11k Ly round-trip. My last explo trip in my Asp Scout I brought in 90M between passengers and data, and that was with me rushing back half the trip because I'd logged out for 2+ weeks and wasted my mission time. Another one of my wingmates made his first billion by just bounty hunting.

    You can make money just about everywhere in this game, without exploits. If you need some tips on how to do that, just ask. People will be happy to help you out.
    Any advice on making money exploring would be greatly appreciated.

    I mentioned having mission time issues. I find it difficult to take on long range passenger missions like that because I'm worried the mission time will interfere with my day to day life... Which sucks, because that's the only mission type I really WANT to play.

  14. #74
    Originally Posted by Hat Man View Post (Source)
    Any advice on making money exploring would be greatly appreciated.

    I mentioned having mission time issues. I find it difficult to take on long range passenger missions like that because I'm worried the mission time will interfere with my day to day life... Which sucks, because that's the only mission type I really WANT to play.
    1: Quince while the Quincing is good.
    2: Explore, start in a Cobra3, move to AspX, get 300m and elite exploration.
    3: Python.

    I have my Cutter, but that Python and medium pads is there waiting for me anytime that I get bored of being huge...

  15. #75
    Hey Hat Man

    Nice post, and I totally understand your frustration. Elite can certainly feel like a huge waste of time, and it feels that way far more often than it should. I agree with the point that many things in the game take too long, and it's not the length of time that is an issue, but rather the way the game expects you to spend that time.

    That said, I can't help but think many of the problems you discuss come from 1) lack of experience, and 2) the game really not helping or explaining things to you.

    A few posts back someone suggested you do a "CG", you asked what they are...and I don't think anyone really replied. If you haven't found out by now, here's the answer. A CG is a "Community Goal" which is a weekly mission. You can accept these from any mission board at any station (they are in grey listed at the top of the mission board). You will then need to head to the location of the CG. These "missions" usually involve trading and combat. You can do both if you wish. I never really spent much time doing Community Goals, but I have been doing them on the PS4. This week I made around 70 million in 3 or 4 hours play spread across a 6 day period. Check this sub-forum for more details: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/forumd...al-Discussions

    Passenger Missions are a good way to make money, and I understand your drive to want a Beluga. However even in an Orca you should be able to make 5 million an hour easy (quite probably much, much more). Just build up reputation with a faction.

    For exploration - don't even bother getting a mission. Just get a Diamondback Explorer, fit it with a B or A rated FSD and head out into space. Choose a destination, doesn't have to be far. NGC 7822, Barnard's Loop, Veil Nebula West are all stunning locations. If you want to go further head towards the galactic core. Regardless of where you go though, make sure you take an Advanced Discovery Scanner as well as the Detailed Surface Scanner. Do an Advanced Scan of every system, and a detailed scan of the things that take your interest. It's not all about the money though - the sights out there are stunning. But a trip like that will net you a lot of millions. No mission needed what so ever.

    BTW, the new Community Goal will begin tomorrow sometime around late afternoon / early evening UK time. Take a look at the mission board and sign up. You will make yourself 20 to 30 million by this time next week without even breaking a sweat.

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