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Thread: A Message To Elite Dangerous Developers

  1. #76
    Originally Posted by Hat Man View Post (Source)
    Any advice on making money exploring would be greatly appreciated.

    I mentioned having mission time issues. I find it difficult to take on long range passenger missions like that because I'm worried the mission time will interfere with my day to day life... Which sucks, because that's the only mission type I really WANT to play.
    Honestly, don't bother taking a mission. Go look at YouTube, or the screenshots thread and find a location that you feel looks interesting - then simply fly there doing an advanced discovery scan in each system on route, don't bother doing a detailed scan on all planets though, just scan the ones that look good (Earth-Likes, Ammonia Worlds, neutron stars, black holes if you find any, also pretty much anything with an atmosphere if you can be bothered). You won't make 100's of millions, but you will certainly make quite a few million. And you will also get to see something different and interesting.

    In fact, just getting away from that darn mission board will probably be the best thing you have done in the game for a long time.

  2. #77
    Originally Posted by Hat Man View Post (Source)
    You make some excellent points. Yes, taking advantage of that exploit led to me learning a hard lesson on a much more pricey ship than I would have playing normally.

    And I can also see your point about progression being faster for starter ships. I pretty much jumped straight into a viper IV from the sidewinder.

    Honestly, I could enjoy the game just fine at where the progression rate sits currently, or even slower, as you seem to prefer. But my main criticism where that is concerned is that this game seems to lack some game-play that I find satisfying, which is why I focused on progress far more than I should've. I wouldn't care about progress as much if the game just rewarded you for going out and exploring random planets a little more. I dunno, maybe that actually is more rewarding, but from what I've seen so far cartographics don't pay as much as missions in my admittedly thus far limited exploration, and long duration missions have infeasible mission timers for my lifestyle.

    And I can fully understand wanting to be fully immersed in the game. Some of what I had to say absolutely was a matter of taste. But as I explained, it's all about options... Would the game giving me the option of using an autopilot on long hauls, or using an in-game media player to pass the time, detract from your experience currently given that those are options you don't need to avail yourself of? Maybe if the options gave other players a major advantage over you in open play. But those options don't seem to particularly give a major advantage to other players over you. In fact, quite the opposite, I mentioned some drawbacks to using autopilot that could be implemented to help balance it. Hell, you might find yourself the better in combat simply because of greater flying experience.
    Having an autopilot in the game would neither harm nor help me, nor many of the things you mentioned in your opening post. Their presence in the game, in my opinion at least, would very likely have harmful effects on new players, transforming what I consider to be an exciting and stimulating space ship simulator into a rather dull and drab experience where you need to watch Netflix to actually enjoy the game. If they let the autopilot do all their flying for them, they'll never develop the skills necessary to fly close to the edge, taking advantage of the game's mechanics to cut their travel time in half.

    Take, for example, Supercruise. I'm sure you use some variation of the Forum "wisdom" on how to arrive at your destination: "Keep it in the blue, so you don't overshoot;" "70% at 7" or other such nonsense. This is by far the slowest way to stop at the end of your journey, adding minutes to your braking maneuver. I much prefer take advantage of the natural mass lock effect close to planets to slow down your ship in a hurry. Not only is it a LOT faster, but I also find it much more fun and engaging. Click here to see an example of this in action.

    I see this desire for automation time and time again on these forums. There are whole websites devoted to automating trading in this game. This forum panicked when these websites went "on strike," which I didn't notice until about three days later, because I never relied on those sites to begin with. The trading tools already in the game are more than enough for an experienced "vagabond trader" to make a good profit without those sites, and the best deals rely on you reacting to changing faction states, which often take days for those sites to learn about, by which time the window has already passed.

    Not to mention how much fun it can be to engineer those changing faction states yourself. There's nothing more satisfying than selectively accepting missions from a controlling Federation faction to lead to an outbreak, rake in a fortune selling them the medicines needed to fight it, and then use the profits to donate weapons to the local band of brave freedom fighters.

    I wince every time I see the topic of an autopilot of jumps come up, primarily because conventional forum "wisdom" is pretty bad as it is. If I'm making a multi-jump trip, I'm not about to take two minutes between jumps, while doing nothing in between. I'm going to take the minimum 45 seconds required between jumps, charging my jump drive even as I scoop fuel, in a ship designed and engineered to take the heat, with one eye on the my gauges, the other peeled for USSs that might have the chemical manipulators or other materials I might need once I can afford my next ship.

    I sometimes do the same while exploring, only instead of the other eye looking out for USSs, its checking my navigation panel for planets in the Goldilocks Zone. One can cover a LOT of ground that way, and still find a lot of ELWs and terraforming candidates. Just make sure your ship's designed for it, and you know how much heat it can take.

    You claimed in your opening post that you feel like Frontier doesn't respect your time. I feel the exact opposite. Frontier very much respects my time, and, more importantly, Frontier respects my ingenuity. There are very few "time sinks" in this game that cannot be mitigated, or avoided completely, through the applications of skill, knowledge, and a certain willingness to take risks. There is very little grinding required in this game if one is willing to pursue their goals in parallel, rather than serially, to keep their eyes peeled for opportunities when they find it, and know how to create them when there aren't any.

  3. #78
    Hey Hat Man, I'll start with my own disclaimer. I haven't read your entire post, as I just don't have time to read through it all and give it due consideration right now (something I'm sure you can appreciate given what you were saying in the parts I did read ).

    Anyway, from the parts I did read, I think you've (understandably) ended up with some misconceptions. I'm just going to cover a few that I picked up on.

    The grind - this is really something that one subjects oneself to (not being posh btw, just want to avoid saying 'you' as I wouldn't want it to be read as being directed at you specifically.).... It's easy to see why it can can seem like you have to grind, but in reality you don't.

    As someone's already said, the only thing that you have to grind for is if you want to do pvp, and that's still not even strictly true - yeah you need to grind if you want to do top level pvp, but you can probably find some pvp without all that (I've been interdicted by players in relatively cheap ships like Vipers before).

    Now if someone decides they want something and want it quickly then they might have to grind to do that. There's nothing wrong with that. Ultimately though, this is someone's own decision, they are not forced to do it by the game, and the only thing forcing the grind is themselves. I've certainly done some bits of grinding myself but it's always me that's forcing me to do it, and I don't let it spoil the game for me.

    The best advice I've seen, and which I'll reiterate, is to do what you enjoy. The rest will come.

    So, on to something which might actually be slightly more practically helpful - doing stuff you enjoy! (And some suggestions of things to try.)

    Firstly, and most importantly, it seems like you've tied everything in with missions. So here's the key thing - forget about the missions. If there's something you want to do, just go and do it.

    Let me illustrate what I mean using an example from your post:

    Originally Posted by Hat Man View Post (Source)
    ]...snip... these time limits are way more constricting than the devs seem to realize.

    This, too, also actively discourages exploration. I’ll give you an example. Some of the worst missions for this problem are extremely long range passenger missions. If I remember correctly, I’ve seen some missions that offered 25,000 light year trips that had to be done in 30 days.

    … I would LOVE to do one of these missions. I can go explore the galaxy, get the hell away from fines and interdictions, and actually discover something nobody’s ever seen before. This is, once again, this game’s biggest selling point…

    But I can’t… I can’t because of that stupid mission timer…
    So here's the thing - if you want to go explore the galaxy, get the hell away from fines and interdictions and discover something nobody's ever seen before, then you can just do it. You don't need a mission, and having a mission would actually make it worse in terms of what you want to do. The mission gives you a time restraint that you don't want, and your destination by the nature of the missions will only ever be somewhere that someone else has already discovered.

    The money for the long range missions isn't even very good. Personally I would only ever take one of those long distance missions if I was already going to the destination and I didn't mind getting there slower because of the jump range reduction due to the extra weight of the passenger cabins.

    So just get out there and go explore!

    Here's some ideas for things which you might want to give a shot:

    - Go and see the Thargoid bases, and crash sites
    - Activate the machine inside a Thargoid base and see the light show (one warning on this one - it needs an Unknown Probe, which are rare and can take some time to find)
    - Try and work out if there's any meaning to the lightshow, and if so, what it is
    - Try and find undiscovered Thargoid bases
    - Visit some of the Megaships
    - Try and find some new megaships
    - Look for new Guardian sites at one of the 3 known bubbles
    - Look for a new Guardian bubble
    - Have a stab at working out the Guardian language
    - Try and work out the meaning of the 'barcodes' hidden in the spectrograms of the sounds from the Guardian obelisks
    - Visit the Dynasty Expedition sites in the Formidine Rift, Conflux and Hawking's Gap
    - Cross the Formidine Rift & visit the Zurara megaship
    - Try and find an accessible Col 70 Sector system (The whole sector is permit locked but there's stuff going on in there, and there's hints that it's not entirely unaccessible.)
    - Join the fight against Wreaken Construction
    - Join the fight against Sirius
    - Visit some of the Geysers and Fumaroles and look for new ones
    - Visit some of the sites of fungal life and try and find more
    - Try and find the 'crystalline forest' - a type of organic seen in a trailer but so far undiscovered

    They're all from aspects of the game that I know well, but there'll be plenty for other aspects too. A couple of things which I'm aware of but haven't got any experience of are:

    - Join the Fuel Rats and rescue players who've ran out of fuel
    - Do a Buckyball race

    Hopefully some other cmdrs will be able to contribute more suggestions.

    Anyway, I hope that all helps a bit.

    And a final thought - watch tomorrow night's livestream. It's on the lore relating to the Thargoids and should help flesh a lot of things out and enable you to get a lot more out of 2.4 when it drops. (see thread here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...-14-09-7PM-BST )

    Happy hunting cmdr. o7

    Edit - ninja'd by Obsidian Ant on the points about exploration and missions!

    Edit - corrected for somehow getting the wrong person's name in the quote originally! Apologies Max Factor, not quite sure how that happened!

  4. #79
    I get the sense Hatman that you want an easier game that rewards you more quickly. I'm in the opposite corner of the ring, as I feel the game is too easy in many respects. Not that I disagree with all your points, but I disagree with a good portion of what I skimmed through in the OP.

    I'm not saying that I'm right and you're wrong, as I'm sure there are plenty of people who don't want my version of the game either. What I'm saying is that I hope FDev doesn't change the game to make you happy, as that would make me unhappy, but rather that you'll look at some of the advice given in this thread by the veteran players to help you either find a way to achieve what you want from the game as it currently stands. When it does come time for Frontier to change some of the fundamental game mechanics (3.0), I'm hopeful that they will take everyone's opinions into account, and perhaps change the game in ways so we all can find renewed enjoyment from it.

  5. #80
    Originally Posted by Hat Man View Post (Source)
    Any advice on making money exploring would be greatly appreciated.

    I mentioned having mission time issues. I find it difficult to take on long range passenger missions like that because I'm worried the mission time will interfere with my day to day life... Which sucks, because that's the only mission type I really WANT to play.
    Friend me in game, we'll go make some money together.

  6. #81
    Originally Posted by Factabulous View Post (Source)
    Maybe time to ask for this thread to be closed?
    Sounds like another 'Silence them and we can pretend everything is ok' style statement. Do you work for Google by any chance

  7. #82


    17 Weeks, 2 Days, 23 Hours, 5 Minutes - that's 2,927 hours since 6/25/16, or 1.25 years.

    I remember when I was just into the 3-digits of hours - I was terrible at most things, every interdiction was a nightmare and I lost ships, spent darn near my last credit covering my costs, and I learned, a lot.

    And the one thing that sticks with me the most is - Elite Takes Time

    Yes, there are ways to amass huge amounts of credits in relatively short periods, but in the end, you're really only shorting yourself.

    I remember being utterly thrilled when I made my first million credits, and still couldn't comfortably afford an Advanced Discovery Scanner.

    It came down to self-discipline for me - I have X credits, I will not spend more than Y credits on anything. It will still be here when I have Z credits.

    And I still do the same thing.

    I'm kicking around the idea of buying a second Anaconda right now. It'll cost me right about 400 million to buy, build and outfit the way I want.
    So I'll be working for a couple weeks to bring my balance up at least another 400m, as I simply do not want to drop my balance below 10 digits.

    And there's no grind here either - not to reach my goal, it's just something I'm working towards. I'm not competing with anyone but myself here.
    There's no End Game to reach.
    There's me.
    There's space.
    That's it.

  8. #83
    Originally Posted by daman View Post (Source)
    This thread is like group therapy. Get it all off your chest.
    It's working. Saved me a lot of money on a quack.

  9. #84
    Originally Posted by Kerrash View Post (Source)
    Your length of time in the game has no bearing on the validity of your opinion or critique.
    Exactly this.

  10. #85
    I read the whole thing.
    My first reaction as a fellow noob is to say my experience has been entirely the opposite.


    All the most experienced players I found quoted earning at most 500k-1mil per hour, after reaching end game...
    You need to do better research it would seem.
    I'm a noob too and this is a single sightseeing mission; it took less than 30 mins, and was done in an Asp.
    That's less time than it took to write the OP I'd wager.




    I've also never done missions at Quince etc.
    But I have two Asp Xs, a Python, Anaconda, Courier, Cobra 3, T6, Vulture, FDL, and will buy an Orca right after I finish this post.
    Making credits and acquiring ships is a little too easy if anything, imo.
    You just have to be organized and focused.

    My experience could not be more different than the OP and I've enjoyed it all.
    (I also live on a tropical island fwiw.)

  11. #86
    Originally Posted by Hat Man View Post (Source)
    This game just seems to give you 2 choices, either go do something fun that you want to do, or go make money... Rarely both. And that's depressing, because really, a game dev should figure out what players most like about it, and reward them for doing it. Why on earth should we be setting up shop in one lonely system when there's a whole galaxy out there?
    Perhaps we might draw your attention to your own wisdom here.

    The money in Elite is fake.
    The fun in Elite is real.

    Are you playing a game for fake money, or real fun?

    And once you figure that out, you'll see why no Dev has to "reward you" - explore the game and determine what routes to earning you enjoy, and do those. You have already experienced the most common route to losing money, but it needn't be a penalty if you learn to enjoy the journey.

    Several players start a new account periodically, just to experience the starting over sensation with no resources. It's not a sentence for them- it's a choice.

  12. #87
    Originally Posted by Obsidian Ant View Post (Source)
    1) lack of experience, and 2) the game really not helping or explaining things to you.
    Frontier has an ongoing issue of understanding it needs to better telegraph important events to people. They have gone out of their way to make the experience a conglomeration of elements where consistency is the least viable definition to use at any point. If something is not consistent, it needs to be communicated, in some fashion.

    I think the Op's post can actually summed up as one word - "frustration". Because this single word, is the one I hear most often. It's the single word that I hear on the end of sentences when talking to fellow players. ".. is frustrating." or ".. so frustrating!". Over and over and over again.

    Sometimes I think this is because the developer has spent so much time building elite, that to them most of it is highly understood and of course it all makes sense. Anyone else? Varying degrees from "wut?" to ".. frustrating."

    The term 'working as intended' is used far far more often in a cynical perspective, than not. Frontier try, they really do, but it's a huge area of weakness. This isn't "hand holding" or "easy mode", it's making sure people can understand cause and effect, so they can better interact with the experience.

  13. #88
    OP, I tried to read your post, but only got halfway through it. Yes, the missions could be better balanced. Try participating in some of the CGs or do the Alien Ruins mission. If you apply yourself, you can make good money (20-100+ mcr per week in rl).

    I've very rarely flown w/o a rebuy; it adds true excitement to the game, but I try to avoid that situation. In fact, I make a point of having at least 3 rebuys remaining, before I buy and outfit a new ship. It's hard to be patient sometimes, but don't risk what you can't afford to replace.

  14. #89
    Originally Posted by Hat Man View Post (Source)
    I agree fully, and this is how I plan to approach this game from now on.

    However, in the OP, I went in depth after this story to explain why I focused on grinding, and why the gameplay is unsatisfying.

    To sum it up for that point in particular, ultimately, for me, I wish to explore the ED universe... But it makes no monetary sense for me to do so, as any tourist missions, for example, that go out that far, I cannot complete before the timers on them end. In fact, there are many missions I often fail because of the timers interfering with my day to day life, which limits me to just a few kinds I can reliably complete. A lot of the boredom stems from those kinds of gameplay limitation. There are other aspects of this game that seem to actively discourage exploration, despite that being one of this game's biggest selling points.
    I have a similar issue when it comes to long distance passenger missions too. I have a family life and can't be in the game all the time. I always look at the distance and my schedule before doing anything like that. Also make sure you don't have any illegal passengers.

  15. #90
    Originally Posted by Darkfyre99 View Post (Source)
    Having an autopilot in the game would neither harm nor help me, nor many of the things you mentioned in your opening post. Their presence in the game, in my opinion at least, would very likely have harmful effects on new players, transforming what I consider to be an exciting and stimulating space ship simulator into a rather dull and drab experience where you need to watch Netflix to actually enjoy the game. If they let the autopilot do all their flying for them, they'll never develop the skills necessary to fly close to the edge, taking advantage of the game's mechanics to cut their travel time in half.

    Take, for example, Supercruise. I'm sure you use some variation of the Forum "wisdom" on how to arrive at your destination: "Keep it in the blue, so you don't overshoot;" "70% at 7" or other such nonsense. This is by far the slowest way to stop at the end of your journey, adding minutes to your braking maneuver. I much prefer take advantage of the natural mass lock effect close to planets to slow down your ship in a hurry. Not only is it a LOT faster, but I also find it much more fun and engaging. Click here to see an example of this in action.

    I see this desire for automation time and time again on these forums. There are whole websites devoted to automating trading in this game. This forum panicked when these websites went "on strike," which I didn't notice until about three days later, because I never relied on those sites to begin with. The trading tools already in the game are more than enough for an experienced "vagabond trader" to make a good profit without those sites, and the best deals rely on you reacting to changing faction states, which often take days for those sites to learn about, by which time the window has already passed.

    Not to mention how much fun it can be to engineer those changing faction states yourself. There's nothing more satisfying than selectively accepting missions from a controlling Federation faction to lead to an outbreak, rake in a fortune selling them the medicines needed to fight it, and then use the profits to donate weapons to the local band of brave freedom fighters.

    I wince every time I see the topic of an autopilot of jumps come up, primarily because conventional forum "wisdom" is pretty bad as it is. If I'm making a multi-jump trip, I'm not about to take two minutes between jumps, while doing nothing in between. I'm going to take the minimum 45 seconds required between jumps, charging my jump drive even as I scoop fuel, in a ship designed and engineered to take the heat, with one eye on the my gauges, the other peeled for USSs that might have the chemical manipulators or other materials I might need once I can afford my next ship.

    I sometimes do the same while exploring, only instead of the other eye looking out for USSs, its checking my navigation panel for planets in the Goldilocks Zone. One can cover a LOT of ground that way, and still find a lot of ELWs and terraforming candidates. Just make sure your ship's designed for it, and you know how much heat it can take.

    You claimed in your opening post that you feel like Frontier doesn't respect your time. I feel the exact opposite. Frontier very much respects my time, and, more importantly, Frontier respects my ingenuity. There are very few "time sinks" in this game that cannot be mitigated, or avoided completely, through the applications of skill, knowledge, and a certain willingness to take risks. There is very little grinding required in this game if one is willing to pursue their goals in parallel, rather than serially, to keep their eyes peeled for opportunities when they find it, and know how to create them when there aren't any.
    This I 100% agree with. Every single bit. This is what I pretty much do too. Makes the game fun, instead of the grind that people seem to thank that you are forced into doing.

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