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Thread: Five Identical CGs, Five Identical Mistakes

  1. #1

    Five Identical CGs, Five Identical Mistakes

    So we're now at the fifth AEGIS CG, with these CGs being at the crux of the evolving content around 2.4 The Return.
    To date we've had the following:

    Engineer Appeal for Thargoid Material - Professor Palin
    - Deliver Unknown Technology Samples, Unknown Resin, Computer Components and Resonating Separators

    Engineer Appeal for Thargoid Material - Liz Ryder
    - Deliver Unknown Technology Samples, Unknown Biological Matter, Ancient Relics and Explosives

    Second AEGIS Appeal
    - Deliver Tantalum, Thargoid Cyclops Tissue Samples and CMM Composites

    Third AEGIS Appeal
    - Deliver Thargoid Cyclops Tissue Samples, Micro Controllers and Explosives

    Fourth AEGIS Appeal
    - Deliver Thargoid Cyclops Tissue Samples, Coltan and Beryllium

    These CGs have had the value of contributing Rare/Dangerous materials trashed every time by the addition of common market-ready goods, bolded in the above CGs. How?

    Skipping the reasoning... you can get roughly 1t of Thargoid Tissue Sample delivered every 5-10 minutes. In the same time, a lowly T6 can haul 100t of market-ready goods, right up to a cutter shipping 650t+ of these market ready goods in the same time. Sticking with a T6 as the example, you have a choice of either:
    - in 30mins, use a powerful combat ship to tank thargoids long enough to get 3t of samples, get them back to the CG station for 45k after selling them, and face a 200k repair bill; or
    - In 30mins, use a T6 to go a jump or two away, buy some stuff, ship it back, do it three times, get 210k profit, no repair bill, and 100 times the contribution to the CG.

    With valid contribution to the goals measured by # of tonnes delivered regardless of the type of goods shipped, and success tiers of the CGs measured in the millions, there is no incentive at all to try and deliver the Thargoid Materials for these CGs.

    tl;dr The design of these CGs is literally forcing players who want to meaningfully contribute to *not* get involved with the new 2.4 content, instead just hauling bland market commodities.

    There's also been multiple suggestions to fix this, with varying degrees of implementation difficulty.
    - Split the Thargoid material collection into a separate CG
    - Make 1t of Thargoid material be worth 100t (or more) of contribution to the CG
    - Make CGs require certain quantities of *each* good requested at each tier for the CG to be successful.

    In fairness, I can see the problem now. FD are introducing equipment one at a time,, and they could hardly have five CGs all asking just for Tissue samples. Bad design choice I guess.

    But they have so much more stuff that is of comparable difficulty to acquire which *could* contribute
    - Thargoid Sensors, Thargoid Probes, Thargoid Links, and all the Thargoid cargo salvage (resin, bio samples, tech samples, Tissue Samples, Hearts) including Meta-alloys.
    - Guardian Cargo, which we know are somehow useful re: Ancient Relics
    - Thargoid Salvage materials (things dropped by popping scavengers or destroying thargoid hearts e.g propulsion systems, wreckage components, carapace, energy cells, fragments, organic circuitry etc)
    - Thargoid Data (Thargoid Ship Scans, Wake Data, Structural Data, Residue Analysis, Materials Composition)
    - Various salvage cargo appearing at the NHSS relevant to observing thargoids (Military plans, tactical data, assault plans, escape pods etc)
    - Various "vanilla materials" such as Untypical Shield Scans, Imperial Shielding, Core Dynamics Armour, Proto-heat alloys etc)
    - Federation Combat Bonds from destroying Thargoids
    - Barnacle Scans

    If this isn't enough to create a very diverse array of CG activities that *doesn't* preclude a vanilla cargo hauling CG which doesn't destroy the value of engaging the 2.4 content and contributing *meaningfully* to a CG, then I don't know what is.

    Whether you like it or not, FD have chosen to use CGs to progress the plot, at least from the perspective of humans adapting new technologies to defeat the Thargoids, but the five CGs to date have been
    - identical in design, and;
    - Fundamentally flawed in design, explicitly pushing players *away* from the 2.4 content in order to make the CGs succeed.

    This must be fixed.

    I'll also put my money where my mouth is and redesign the existing CGs using what I've listed above, and even create some new ones.

    Think I'm wrong, or missing the point?
    Here's some commentary from many, many other commanders on the topic, from just the last three CGs, if you don't take my word for it. This is a small fraction of the commentary out there. Failing that, just read the CG threads. Nobody is shipping Thargoid Tissue Samples in any meaningful quantity, instead just shipping vanilla cargo. For five CGs in a row.

    Originally Posted by Padaxes View Post (Source)
    Is this another CG where it's pointless actually doing the good bit ? i.e. getting Thargoid Tissue samples? Rendering the new gameplay mechanic totally redundant ?
    Originally Posted by Padaxes View Post (Source)
    But the maths doesn't add up, you can haul hundreds of tonnes of regular goods, or spend ages filling a few 2 tonne racks, and be in the lowest tier of the CG and paying huge repair bills. More like punishing the people doing this. And there are 2 other CG's! why not make this one Samples only?! I despair.
    Originally Posted by JonathanBurnage View Post (Source)
    I agree - it is silly to bother with samples from the perspective of completing the CG. They should have made it samples only.
    Originally Posted by Arkadi View Post (Source)
    It would be fun if it was of no importance how well this CG will complete. Actually, does it matter this time or is T1 more then enough? Didn't see any description of what that CG actually does - except paying credits.

    edit: I'd hope it's a "just for fun" CG - so I could skip it for good...
    Originally Posted by Padaxes View Post (Source)
    Yes and it's awesome. What pisses me off is that they make a CG where you would be stupid to do it after you've tried it for fun.
    Originally Posted by Arkadi View Post (Source)
    Whatever floats one's boat. I am just a bit exhausted from hauling explosives and resonating seperators - so I can rest more relaxed if this one is not a "mandatory" CG for the story progression. pff.. time to visit Nanomam springs for some high-quality wellness recreation :p
    Originally Posted by Alderius View Post (Source)
    Exactly this! The last CG, it was fun for me to get inside the alien base and scrounge around etc etc, but from an overall contribution perspective of course it was totally useless. Unfortunately by the time I did the alien base thing and got around to hauling regular cargo, it had been all bought up, so the CG itself was a bust for me. FD should have split this into two CG's, one for alien samples and really low contributions (maybe with some cool alien related rewards too), and the other as a regular trade CG. That way everyone would be happy.
    Alas, it's the same old trade template with an alien component thrown in..........FD really does seem to squander their opportunities to make these more interesting/relevant.
    Originally Posted by ebbrell View Post (Source)
    I don't mind CGs I like them and I love the busy station thing. But I'm a little sad, that 1 unit of issue will represent 1t, when easy stuff you can get in hundreds at a time contribute move easier.

    Shouldn't 1 unit of thargoid tissue equal 10t at least, giving people a chance to get into 50% band by doing to good fun new stuff. This needs rethinking people want to do the good stuff, but it will not allow us to reach the required tiers. So we had to collect mainly explosives on the last CG to get it past teir 3.... we wanted to visit the site ideally.

    FDEV please send out a mini update like you did last night or something to address this. .. xx o7 xx
    Originally Posted by Rob_the_Sparky View Post (Source)
    I think it should be closer to 1 unit = 50+ tonnes. In a big cargo ship you can haul hundreds of tonnes of commodities at a time and I doubt the small ship owners will be taking on the Thargoids to collect samples. It is a shame as hauling lots of cargo is dull but gets the CG done while the fun bit will not help complete the CG.
    Originally Posted by Commander_Brucitor View Post (Source)
    Totally agree with the comments on here, people are going to gravitate towards the most profitable Avenue to maximize the value of their time. What FD could do is make certain material requirements for each stated good, so x number of each thargoid materials plus y number of each non thargoid materials in order to achieve the CG.
    Originally Posted by Ziljan View Post (Source)

    Does 1 thargoid tissue sample advance the success of the CG as much as 1 Micro Controller/Explosive ? Because I really hope the effort involved is being taken into account. Otherwise why would anyone bother with tissue samples?
    Originally Posted by Mad Mike View Post (Source)
    its a very good point, given the work involved perhaps it should have like a 100x (or what ever) multiplier or something because otherwise, why bother going for the thargoid stuff.

    it could also mean those players with smaller ships can compete with the space truckers.
    Originally Posted by JonathanBurnage View Post (Source)
    Same contribution for each I think. One ton is one ton. I agree it’s daft; sadly this was raised at the previous two CGs but FDev seem determined not to change it.
    Originally Posted by Ziljan View Post (Source)
    I am just thinking about the effort/risk/reward involved in gathering a tissue sample vs the straight forward hassle-free bulk trading.

    If gathering tissue samples was required or at least rewarded, then the CG would stand a chance of being interesting enough not to be boycotted. But right now taking the risk of gathering tissue samples is effectively being punished.

    It makes no sense, because how can we adapt our tech without tissue samples??
    Originally Posted by bej View Post (Source)
    Last week they were worth 1:1

    With the amount of effort it takes to get one, it should be at least 250:1

    But it isnt, so its not worth the effort.
    Originally Posted by Ziljan View Post (Source)
    Yeah it boggles the mind, why Frontier would go through the trouble of creating a whole new limpet type, if they were going to make it effectively useless and obviated by old fashioned trade? I mean, in the time it takes to obtain and turn in 1 tissue sample, I could haul several thousand tons of regular CG bulk cargo. Never mind the risk/repair cost difference!
    Originally Posted by TheRustyHammer View Post (Source)
    How about a cg for all this thargoid data I have wasting space?
    Originally Posted by Ashnak View Post (Source)
    Projectile weapons only: so far, the only type of weapons capable of damaging a Thargoid needs to physically deliver a payload (Thargoid-damaging substance) to the target.

    Limit of 4: these are experimental weapons. There would only be a limited supply of them.

    What bugs me more is that these CGs don't add up - literally. For each CG, we are requested to deliver Thargoid samples/materials. Sure, the CG bars are only influenced by the sheer tonnage delivered, so the Thargoid materials count very little for reaching the bars. But reading the CG descriptions, I wonder whether FD doesn't keep track of the xeno materials delivered and uses this (potentially) to adjust the efficiency of the weapons we can get - or the time these weapons stay efficient. The recent missile nerf might as well have been a problem of having too little xeno samples available to develop a system that is not so easily outwitted by the Thargoids.
    Originally Posted by Nelina View Post (Source)
    Delivered 1 Tissue Sample and realized thats not worth the Risk and Time. (18k for 1 Sample...)
    Just the Fun was it worth.
    Originally Posted by Reina Kaede View Post (Source)
    Yeaaaaahhhh...they should really make like 3 tiers of goods you can donate to a CG, like common rare and ultra rare, and have rares and ultra rares be worth, say, 50 commons and 100 commons respectively.
    Originally Posted by iFred View Post (Source)

    B O R I N G!

    And to FD: I think it was not the best idea to force the community to do something. Please find a different way of implementing stuff into the game. (Thatīs what we were talking about at FX17 either).
    Originally Posted by Modron View Post (Source)
    Are u serious, FD? Again trade, again, again and again?
    Is this so hard to release some conflictzone fights or exploring or something else?
    Last BH CG has ended much earler, it means that people likes fights more than boring trading. Think about it.

    Originally Posted by Heater View Post (Source)
    And again... I can no longer be bothered, FD is trying to kill the game at this rate. it's nothing but grind grind grind.
    Originally Posted by Novo Mundus View Post (Source)
    Again... they add normal trade items into this... They are missing a trick with this, it would be so much more fun to just require thargoid items...
    Originally Posted by TartanDragon View Post (Source)
    This one is even better as there is no blackmarket to sell the Thargoid items.

  2. #2
    I agree completely. +1 rep.

  3. #3
    Yeah, other people agree. It's the internet. You always find people that agree on anything. I don't, by the way. there have always been CGs for stuff so nothing new here and nothing to complain about.
    Also, while writing that post you could have made a cargo run and participate. Just sayin'.

  4. #4
    CGs have never been interesting or fun to me. I would rather just let some poor sucker CMDR do all the heavy lifting, and then read about the narrative in gal news when the CG is done.

    Whether or not players actually advance the goals forward, FDev will artifically change the goal lines to meet whatever the players actually did so the story can continue.
    Kind of takes the fun out of achievement if the endzone gets repainted so your 4th down and 10 yards magically turned into a touchdown.

  5. #5
    I agree about the complaint that the supply of the different commodities is lopsided. The lore aspect of the commodity choices is something that I appreciate though.

    It may well be that this is the way Frontier have to design these CG's, in order to keep to the premise of interactions with thargoids being optional for the player.

  6. #6
    Ah but this one has a surprise waiting for those that do collect the samples.

    The outpost doesn't have a black market so you can't sell them.

    Great uh?

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by Sentience View Post (Source)
    Whether or not players actually advance the goals forward, FDev will artifically change the goal lines to meet whatever the players actually did so the story can continue.
    Riiiiiiiiight. So these is the reason why we have these crappy 2T corrosive resistant cargo holds, from a CG for Palin to make make them?

  8. #8
    They should really put each type of goods with a multiplier depending on rarity when having mixed goods CG's.

    It would also be nice if they could show the required tonnage to reach a reward tier as well.

    Station Commodities = X1
    Rare Stat.Commodities = X10
    Mineable Only Minerals = X10
    Xeno Commodities = X100

  9. #9
    Well going on the OP, id be running my Annconda in trade fit and not bothering at all with the Thargoid side of the CG, which I think is the point the OP was trying to make.

    Not that Ive done a CG for a very long time and only then it was a way to make a quick buck never really cared what they were for as it allways felt like they were for nothing anyway, a bit like this whole story line, sorry I love a good story but somtimes I cant be a-ed to go looking for it and would like it at least in some way waving at me in the form of a large sticky thread saying hello im over here this is the story. Yeah maybe I should of gone to spec savers and what Im asking for is indeed on the front page.

    Does this forum even get new updates with reagrds to the ingame story?

    Sorry OT here but I just read another thread and somone pointed out that you can get Galnet via the powers bit in the galaxy map,...been playing near on three years and I diddnt know this or had forgoton it....

  10. #10
    Totally. I've been hauling strictly thargoid related stuff for the heck of it (contributed 4 tissue samples in two days for this last one. I helped!). But I do so knowing full well my contribution is meaningless because I could just be hauling normal cargo. I would be down for two different cgs each week. One for hauling normal commodities and one for hauling thargoid stuff. The normal cg would have the same tier rewards that we currently have and the thargoid cg could have tiers of the weapons initial effectiveness. Ie "we didn't get very much thargoid material this week so we couldn't do much testing. So these weapons work but not as well as they could." Then that would be incentive to deliver more the next week when we would get a report like "we got a ton of thargoid stuff this week. We have been able to do more extensive and up to date testing with the weapons and have got them working at full effectiveness" or something like that I don't know! Makes more sense than building an infinite supply of AX missiles when only like three people turned in relics (exaggeration but you get my drift)

  11. #11
    A better CG structure...

    Little bit of housekeeping first. Having each CG dictate where the weapons are available is quite flawed. What would be better would be to have the CGs make the AX weaponry available in a couple AEGIS bases only in the Pleiades, and *then* have a CG to dictate their availability.
    Secondly, a lot of people complain "I can't get corrosive cargo because I can't get CRCRs from Palin"
    As someone who happily ships over 50t of corrosive cargo at a time with no CRCRs, a lack of access to Professor Palin is not an issue.
    I also get lazy towards the end. Whatevs

    With that in mind...

    Engineer Appeal for Thargoid Material - Professor Palin (gives the Xeno Scanner)
    Cargo Salvaging: Deliver Thargoid Sensors, Thargoid Technology Samples, Thargoid Biological Samples (all corrosive cargo found at NHSS (all player accessible), the sensor shell (all) or Thargoid Structures (horizons only) and Thargoid wrecks (horizons only). All cargo relates to Thargoid Sensors/Scanning, and Thargoid Biology/Technology (presumably, our xeno scanners need to be able to identify these components)

    General Activity: engaging passively with the Thargoid content and collecting/transporting corrosive cargo. You can risk swiping Sensors under the Thargoids noses if you like living on the edge. Passive activity matches with passive goal

    Success Volumes:
    T1 (lowest Tier) success: 200,000t. Anyone who's anyone should be able to easily and casually get on average 10-15 units of cargo a day. Assume a low turnout of 2,500 players.
    Max Tier success: 3,500,000t. Assuming people are highly competent and there's a big turnout of 5,000 players, shipping on average 100t a day. Presumably some won't do more than 10t a day, while others who are skilled may get 300t a day.

    Engineer Appeal for Thargoid Material - Liz Ryder (AX Missiles)
    Cargo Salvaging: Deliver Thargoid Resin, Ancient Relics and Thargoid Tissue Samples, Tactical Data

    General Activity: Cargo Salvaging, Passive engaging with Thargoid Structures (horizons) and Guardians sites (horizons), trying out the new Research Limpets for Tissue Samples in NHSS (All players) and entering NHSS for Tactical Data (All players). This is a mix of Corrosive/NonCorrosive cargo types, but the non-corrosives are a little harder to get. We know the Resin is highly corrosive when vapourised (from the cargo description), so this will undoubtedly be useful. The Ancient Relics are known to trigger hostile reactions from the Thargoids, so we know that will be somewhat useful.
    Success Tiers: As per Palin's CG, it's pretty comparable

    Second AEGIS Appeal (AX Multicannons)
    - Material/Data Salvaging: Deliver wreckage components, Thargoid Carapace, Thargoid Ship Scans and Thargoid Materials Composition
    General Activity: This heats things up a little. We've got weapons now, so lets go attack some thargoids. We may or may not be able to kill them, but we can at least whittle down a heart or two which makes the salvage drop (All Players). For those wanting a less aggressive scenario, we can get Thargoid Carapace from killing scavengers (Horizons). For those who want a completely non-hostile option, Thargoid Materials Compositions are from Uplinks (horizons only) or get ship scans using the new Xeno Scanner (All players)

    Success Tiers:
    Tier 1: 400,000 We've had material salvage CGs before. These ones are a bit trickier to get though. These don't corrode your hull so you spend less time returning to offload stuff, but you do need space in your materials/data stores, so lets say a low turnout of 2,000 players (because it's a bit tricker to get than cargo) getting 30-40 a day quite casually
    Max Tier: 5,600,000, assuming participation of 4000 players and 200 units a day (last time I was doing a Thargoid material CG I was getting more than that each day)

    Third AEGIS appeal (Remote Detonation AX Flak)
    - Mixed Cargo/Materials: Deliver Military Plans, Escape Pods, Thargoid Structural Data and Residue Analysis
    General Activity: Military plans salvaged from the NHSS (all players) give some insight into how the Thargons and Thargoid vessels manouver, informing the remote detonation and flak dispersal properties of this weapon. Rescued Survivors also give first-hand accounts of their manouverability. Structural data and Residue analysis (Horizons only) also informs the process of how to design flak shrapnel and composition for maximum damage.

    Tiers of success: Same as the Second AEGIS appeal wouldn't be unreasonable, but may need to be tweaked down.

    Fourth AEGIS Appeal (Presumably anti-EMP device)
    - Cargo CG, Deliver Meta Alloys, Thargoid Tissue Samples, Scientific Reports, Thargoid Sensors (OR: Material Salvage: Imperial Shielding, Organic Circuitry, (all players) Thargoid Energy Cells (horizons only))
    General Activity: We know Thargoid Sensors have the ability to affect our stations, so they have some EMP properties that may be useful for study. Thargoid Tissue samples will also be useful to try and work out how Thargoids essentially protect themselves from their own weaponry. Both these cargoes are available to all players in space. Meta Alloys are available from barnacles, and we know they can neutralise the effects of the Sensors, so presumably they have importance for nullifying the EMP. Scientific reports found at NHSS also give insight into statistical recordings of ship systems when an EMP is detonated, giving more insight into how to counterattack (and also provides a non-aggressive option)

    Tiers of success as per palin appeal.


    Imperial shielding is superior to standard shielding, and with some tweaks could be used to interfere with the EMP effects. Likewise the organic circuitry and energy cells are necessary to understand how the EMP is charged and dispersed by the Thargoids.

    Tiers of success as per second AEGIS appeal.

    Other potential CGs

    Field Testing Weapons (Could be run multiple times)
    - Hand in Pilots Federation combat bonds from killing Thargoids

    General Activity: Pure and simple, this is to give people a reason to get out and start winging up (or not) to take out Thargoids. Honestly, there's no story development here, just giving a reason now to get out and kill some goids, because there's easier ways to get 2m credits. It also gives people a reason to rig up the new weapons as the plot develops.

    AX Equipment Distribution
    The five identical CGs have all had goals around how far these systems are distributed. With this setup, the Thargoid materials are salvaged to get the weapon in the first place, while the vanilla cargo deliveries amass materials to bulk-distribute these weapons systems. These CGs would run *exactly* how the current ones are, sans the Thargoid materials, for similar quantities. It could be run once at the end of the development CGs to manage all distribution, or run once per development. Pure trading.

    Aid combat site relief
    With all the wrecked megaships appearing, there's no shortage of salvage to be obtained and handed in to THE NEW SEARCH AND RESCUE CONTACT. Why not introduce this new 2.4 content to players with a CG focused solely around this. May not develop story or plot, but would be interesting to go see different megaships in various stages of destruction and feel somewhat involved in a situation much bigger than yourself.


    These are rough, very rough. Not going to lie. But the variety of content in each, being:
    - Going to Thargoid Structures on Planets
    - Going to NHSS in space and *not* attacking thargoids
    - Going to NHSS and attacking Thargoids
    - Going to wrecked megaships
    - Trading
    - Combat
    - Salvaging in the bubble

    ... is much more comprehensive than the current list of activities from the current CGs which is just:
    - Trade

  12. #12
    I agree. ED have done a great job with the Thargoid Ships but it gets lost if there's no need to interact with them. Getting these CG's right is important to keeping interest in the story.

  13. #13
    yup, gotta say that all makes a lot of sense. I was actually thinking about exactly this last night as I was reading the different CG's. I actually just assumed that Thargoid salvage would be worth a lot more than the regular commodities, if it isn't that really is ridiculous.

  14. #14
    And to think that this will be going on until March.

  15. #15
    I like the current CG's. Just make one tonne of the really hard to get materials worth 100 or 1000 tonnes for calculating the contribution. No need to remove the easy materials from the CG.

    I'm not getting it. Prior to this Fdev made new content worth doing (like with passenger missions). But Goids and Search and Rescue? There is no gain at all.

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