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Thread: DESCENDING INTO CRIME: SUGGESTIONS & SUPPORT

  1. This is the last staff post in this thread. #1
    Lead Designer- Elite: Dangerous Frontier Employee

    DESCENDING INTO CRIME: SUGGESTIONS & SUPPORT

    Hello Commanders!

    Please Remember This thread is for feedback directed at developers, not other posters. Please post suggestions for improvements with this feature here.

    We are not likely to respond directly to posts in this thread, but that doesn’t make it any less useful – we will definitely be reading it!

    As per usual, we certainly can’t promise to action any suggestions and we’re mainly interested in ideas that work with the feature rather than against it, in general, the more ideas we get, the better we can make the game.

    Again, this is also the place where you can add your voice of support for the feature, with qualifiers if necessary.

  2. #2
    I think these changes look good, but I still feel that there should be commander consequence, not just hot ship consequences.

    The only other thing I would suggest is a Criminal Rank system, the worse it gets, the more difficult it will be to work in Low-Hi Security areas. Not sure if this will part of a Karma system that you have talked already.

  3. #3
    In general - I couldn't stop laughing (ok, evil chuckling) at these changes. At a first glance, I like them - but let me sleep on them a bit.

    And in general constructive feedback to Sandro: it's your, not you're

    When you’re ship is boiled

  4. #4
    Hello, Sandro.
    I really like what you have presented, here. Especially the new respawning mechanic. That sounds pretty neat.

    I have a suggestions regarding what it means to be wanted in general. I love smuggling, for example, so, unlike pirates and killers, what I do is mostly gather fines. But I'd like to get notorious for that, too. Let's call it "soft crime" and "hard crime", for example. And as a smuggler, limited station services is kind of a big deal, so I hope at least black market won't be affected by that. (it shouldn't, of course)
    But it would be cool to have two kinds of being wanted, one for the "hard crime" like murders and piracy, and other one for "soft crime" from smuggling fines, not-so-subtle BGS work, etc.

    When comes to bounties in general, I would really like them to have different "levels". As of now, and by what I've read eve in future, the height of a bounty doesn't directly impact the gameplay. What would be cool is if the area of effect of the bounty grew as the bounty is getting bigger.
    For example - small bounties for a couple of murders, unpaid fines etc. would be local to a system. If the bounty got bigger, one would be wanted in all systems where the ruling faction of the original system is present. Do even more evil and you'd be wanted in the whole superpower the original faction is part of, and eventually with multi-million bounty you'd get wanted galaxy-wide.
    I would really like to see being wanted to mean something.

    Being notorious could (or even should) bring advantages, too. For example discounts in allied anarchy systems.

  5. #5
    When you are wanted beyond a certain level I would suggest it is simply not possible to buy a "new" ship from a lawful system..... it is something you are locked out from.

    BUT

    pirate factions in anarchy systems should be able to sell you legally questionable ships which when scanned have a (small) bounty attached to them from the off. I think that to make being a criminal a "career" choice actually needs some fundamental work. i would love to be some form of notiorious vagbond - at least for a few months to check it out - but i think the game needs to play differently. if i am a criminal i need to be at the criminal bases, not flouncing around leesti or other hi sec systems, and the ships i use should be grubby ships nicked from other people, not all singing all dancing brand new ships just out of the wrapper... imo.

    (Somali pirates spring to mind.... you dont expect to see them in top of the line gear - not unless it is nicked anyway.)

    of course people change how they like to play and there needs to be a way to clean up your act - but this should take some time and a certain amount of "work" imo.

    in an ideal world you would expand the Dark Wheel faction and make it a genuine alt to the PF, makign the PF a more legal organisation and the DW is the one with the nefarious stuff..... (of course there would be shady things in the PF when you are at a certain level but these would be off the books)

    oh and I suggest that after an initial minimum, the fines and bounties tied to a ship shoudl be a percentage of a CMDRs total assets and cash not a set amount, therefore no matter how rich you are a fine may sting.

  6. #6
    I like these changes. Crime needs to mean something. I'm OK with the correctional ships and the limited starport functionality.

    The biggest thing that needs to be changed in my view is this mechanic:

    - pirate scans me
    - I target pirate and shoot at him
    - "BOUNTY 200Cr ISSUED FOR ASSAULT OF PIRATE"
    - "Bounty payment 300,000Cr for destruction of Pirate"
    - All the police in the system attack me

    You could make it so that the 200Cr bounty is applied for the duration of the full scan, then immediately rescinded when the scan shows the pirate to be Wanted in system. This would be like an inverse of spawn invincibility, which may place commanders in a small amount of peril.

    Or you could make it so that when the pirate scans me, their name doesn't show up in my contacts list, meaning that I would then need to scan them before shooting at them.

  7. #7
    I like those changes, alltough I'm not 100% sure crimes should always only be tied to the ship. Maybe if a certain amount of crimes is done (A certain amount of bountys accumulated or a certain number of ships being used to do crimes) the cmdr itself will be a wanted Person. Because it seems while it looks good from a mechanical standpoint in how punishment works in the End a CMDR itself can't really become a criminal, only his ships can. I miss a bit persitent here, where people who should really hate me suddenly cool with me just because I switched the ship.

    Speaking of punishment, what about benefits? I think that aspect shouldn't be overlooked when it comes crimnal gameplay, there could be aside from things like limited services also benefits for criminals in stations owned by criminal factions. I don't really have any specific Idea in mind here tough, maybe access to something like rares only handed out to knows smugglers - but I may well overcomplicated things here.

  8. #8
    I like it. Throw in some of the combat logging changes. And the thrill of piracy lives again! Would love to use a manifest scanner to "steal their mission" to match the cargo.

    I honestly like the direction. Problems yep.

    Now here's where I flip the script and im probably going to catch some nonsense for.
    The PVP in this game thats been going on for a while now is. Legit PVPers that dont care about traders really. These changes kind of mess with that. By trolling 3rd parties and crime.

    I am sure there is some other stuff that will be adjusted over time. But it still forces the attacker into solo and private. Once again NPC's arent that big of a deal. The attackers have advantage in every way. BY NOT USING OPEN.

    But, I do think its a step in the right direction when fighting over territory. And making attacks seem legit for take over. Also, Players, and NPC's when it comes to the effects of the BGS. Whats the difference? Does one hold a higher priority for reward? Maybe some sort of Merit conversion for players.

    I'd also like to see incentive for being a criminal. From the sounds of it they seem to be handling this in stages and are establishing a set rules first.
    Oh well fingers crossed. I dont expect it to come out perfect the first time. Lets see what happens.

  9. #9
    Edit: Wrong thread

    If I attacked a player and they log out, with the 15sec or pull the plug, where does this leave me as the attacker? I already suffered my consequence...

  10. #10
    I like the idea of this and touching on the rep/karma relating to Black market, maybe the bigger the bounties the larger the markup you get on goods sold at Black Markets?

  11. #11
    Initial thoughts:

    Love the tied-to-ship mentality. Means we can ALMOST get multi-commander profiles as many have been asking for for some time.

    Love the tightening of the credit noose. Make it tight enough, and gankers will be (over time) relegated to the kind of ships they can afford to grind for, on top of paying for their bounties etc. Again, make it tight enough, and we should still have gankers, but they should be in vipers, relying on their 'skills'...

    The key here I think is covering all the loopholes, and being careful not to strangle powerplay PVP/piracy.

    Balancing C&P with FD's vision for 'desirable' criminal gameplay

    In order to achieve balance, for piracy at least (I cant speak for PP as I don't often get involved), there needs to be some more distinction between assault and murder. I would propose that the new ATR are only deployed to deal with those who have destroyed a ship. piracy and smuggling really don't warrant such a heavy handed response, and this would kill this advertised form of gameplay as viable (not that its in a good state to begin with).

    Having a 'hot ship' as a pirate or smuggler is fine, as long as black markets are still available. It actually makes a lot more sense, given that you are wanted in the viscinity. Remembering that Piracy and smuggling do not incur PF bounties, so they will still have access to services in ANY other system but the ones where they are criminals. A 'Hot ship' imperial pirate who only pirates in fed/independent systems (me) could still use services in imperial systems, or actually any system they had not committed a crime in.

    In terms of PVP piracy/trade balance, forcing people into open will not only never work, I'm pretty sure it goes against FD's much touted 'vision' for the game and 'playing your way'. In which case, only traders who value the gameplay will play in open. Which is fine, because people like me totally would, provided the main threat was pirates designed to disable with internals taken up with cargo holds and limpets, rather than over engineered gankers with high end ships geared for destruction alone.

    However there is still the problem of encouraging traders to go anywhere near low security/anarchy systems. Which, strangely enough, is really easy to fix, with no 'mode specific nonsense. Simply increase the profit multiplier of low security systems (which I believe already exists, just isnt nearly enough), and create an ever more extreme one for anarchy systems.

    Smuggling

    I've also seen a few suggestions of tying bounties/fines to black market profits. Honestly that's a little silly, if you're a good smuggler you shouldn't get caught very much, doing the above is rewarding failure. IF you're looking for smuggling suggestions:

    - Make it more difficult, but more rewarding.
    - High speed should make scans more likely (unless your ship is cold) even inside stations (why is he in such a rush?)
    - Icing up is cool and more challenging. Long term, (I know this is a more complex ask), make silent running turn off certain modules rather than give a complete 'stealth mode'. This would not only make going in cold harder, but would encourage 'cold build' smuggling ships (though still fast enough to outrun the scans of cops).

    Make this difficult enough, force people to drift in with skill, and you can up the credit rewards for those who make it through, and make smuggling a more challenging, more risky but more rewarding form of trading. Trading for 'experts', something to liven things up if you find 'normal' trading isn't to your tastes, or just want a break.

    Also, Vis a Vis PVP bounty hunting, this is an excellent suggestion:

    Though you could make it simpler and just call if 50% of the ship's rebuy if the bounty is over 1 million...

    Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post (Source)
    To help PvP bounty hunting (and therefore consequences), it could work well if a successful PvP bounty claim was enhanced by a cut of the dispatched criminal's rebuy cost. It could be tied to the bounty value of the wanted ship. For example;

    Bounty Value vs Rebuy Cut:

    • 0 - 999cr (0%)
    • 1000cr - 4999cr (5%)
    • 5000cr - 49,999cr (10%)
    • 50,000cr - 99,999cr (20%)
    • 100,000cr - 499,999cr (30%)
    • 500,000cr - 999,999cr (40%)
    • 1,000,000cr + (50%)


    e.g A bounty hunter kills a wanted Cutter that has a bounty of 1 million cr which also has a rebuy of 40 million cr - this means the bounty hunter would earn 21 million credits for the kill.

    This would encourage bounty hunters to go after wanted commanders flying high-value ships more, because at the moment, there is no real incentive to hunt advanced-level wanted players (1 million credits is low).

    This would also be non-exploitable because of the net loss for bounty farmers..
    Also a solid suggestion for consensual PVP:

    Originally Posted by Genar-Hofoen View Post (Source)
    Suggestion: Implement a DUEL mechanic so that PvP players and groups can duel each other without fear of Report Crimes being used in nefarious ways.

    Groups/Wings/Individual Players should be able to activate a DUEL 'beacon' of some kind to signal this, and this cannot be changed until ship has blown up or the player has restarted the game or has otherwise left the system or docked at a starport.

    A ship should also be clearly flagged and indicated as being 'IN DUEL' to another ship when this is active.

    Anyone IN DUEL firing at another NOT IN DUEL would be penalised of course.
    A reward (or at least reason) for non-extreme criminal gameplay (smuggling/piracy, not murder).

    This could be fairly easy to implement, by adding another 'superpower' (Representing their reputation in the galactic criminal community, which you gain better rep with through working for criminal factions, and become hostile with through bounty hunting in the usual manner.

    Gaining high rep with this new superpower, would unlock certain permit locked systems run by galactic scale 'godfather' figures, who in turn could offer higher prices for stolen goods, better paying missions, etc.

    A system like this should be fairly easy to implement compared to adding a whole new type of system/reputation.

    Finally, Combat logging, ramming, and Karma

    I assume this is being developed as we speak, but the 'karma' system needs finishing to deal with combat logging, ramming and such. Without this, those who choose to cheat in this way will give the rest of the system a bad name, as it is near impossible to deal with these problems through C&P alone.

  12. #12
    Love the ideas.

    Suggestion : Tagging Limpet - used by a bounty-hunter to 'beacon' the position of a hot ship. Criminal CMDR could escape this by docking their ship and scootling off in another, less hot, or clean ship.

  13. #13
    If killing unlawfully use credits from the attackers account for victim's rebuy instantly in addition to any bounties. Victims lose a few minutes of time but no credits (other than cargo perhaps), attackers suffer immediate consequences but still get to watch people explode and Open becomes more populated.

  14. #14
    Suggestions:

    Clearly define what is meant by harassment and griefing in the terms of service and enforce it

    1. Who/what killed you should be removed from the rebuy screen to prevent gloating if the player is killed on stream. It's recorded in the log so can still be got at
    2. Rename open to FFA PvP to better reflect it's nature
    3. The old Offender, Wanted, Fugitive mechanic would be great to tie into escalating punishment
    4. Deny docking super power wide for Fugitive status players. Deny docking at a local level for wanted players (why on earth would the empire/federation or alliance allow a known mass murderer anywhere in their space)
    5. Fugitive status players should have a marker on the galaxy map when in a superpowers system they are fugitive in. (like GTA does) That would attract bounty hunters and warn away others.
    6. Players who repeatedly violate pilot federation rules started to get demoted(why would the PF still award it's highest ranking to people who bring membership into disrepute)

  15. #15
    "Hot" ship idea - weird at first, but for some of hottest PvP issues might be best solution.

    Liking that major DDF ideas about crime and punishment are in your proposal. Limited services for your ship and re-spawn mechanic makes complete sense. As for bounties and fines never expiring...if current mechanism about timeout is still in place, then yeah.

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