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Thread: DESCENDING INTO CRIME: DETAIL REQUESTS

  1. #151
    With respect to another suggestion and concern to "a players natural way to understand the criminal sanction system and to clean his record of criminal offenses", I offer this thread.

    https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...=1#post6156252

    Keep in mind that a "pilots license" is in line with this type of game and fits into Elite's goal of allowing you to fly a ship. It also provides Frontier with a method of logging offenses and sanctions by issuing all Commanders a pilot's license "WHICH YOU AGREE TO". All of the suggestions on these threads are very good, and could be grouped together into a "pilots license" USER AGREEMENT, upon acceptance of your pilots license. In effect, you agree to abide by the flight, navigation and sanction rules established by Frontier as a sort of Federal Aviation Administration. Your acceptance (checking "I AGREE") to the rules and policies established by Frontier for fair and equitable game play by all.

    Everyone (more or less) understands a drivers license and insurance cost associated with it, as well as the legal ramifications your actions can have if you do stupid things, like hitting someone. Everyone should get this.

    Frontier, for ease of explanation, issues you a license and you agree to abide by the flight rules and policies, however they are finally decided or chosen.

    As well, using a mentoring system already present in the game, Frontier (or the Frontier Aviation Administration) (cool), would become final arbitrator in these matters.

    You have the right to appeal via a police report, reporting a player, a report to support, or providing evidence of a bug, on all infractions and sanctions. We ARE still a democracy here.

    I would also point out to Fdev, that the term or label used for development discussions, referring to a "hot" ship, may be appropriate in it's meaning, but may give the wrong impression to those most likely to want one.

    Some may be led to deliberately try to get one, because hot ship just sounds cool, and requires a certain type of personality. Maybe a "sanctioned" or "restricted" ship would be more appropriate for this purpose, not to give the wrong impression to some.

    Thanks for your ear and consideration.

  2. #152
    Please describe in detail how you see ship storage / transfer and module storage / transfer to work. I'd like to see answers to these questions:
    - Will it be possible to transfer hot ships? If so, will it be allowed to transfer hot ships to stations where they are wanted?
    - If you introduce hot modules, will it be just a "hot or not" switch or will each module carry its own set of fines and bounties in different jurisdictions?
    - Will it be possible to transfer hot modules? Will it be possible to install them into any ship?
    - What happens when a hot ship is stored in a station that changes ownership, making the ship wanted? Can a CMDR switch into such ship?
    - What happens if a CMDR has hot modules in storage but all their ships are clean?

  3. #153
    The problem with "hot ships" is that it is a stupid idea and makes no sense.

    It should be CMDR based for crime. Simply because when you buy the ship you have to register who brought it, for insurance reasons and well, get the money from them and all the other very good reasons under the sun why it is important to know who brought which ship.

    People don't fly around in ships that pop out of thin air.... And there are no mechanics for stolen ships or black market ships.... Which in turn have their own serious consequences to flying...

    So it makes no difference to swapping ships because CMDR SausageParty brought his FDL at Jameson and his Type 9 at such and such.....

    Sorry FDev, please can you stop implementing stupid mechanics into the game, please.

  4. #154
    Not sure about ‘hot ships’ either if I’m honest. How does this effect the commander with billions of credits? Could he / she just keeps buying new ships as they see fit?
    This could lead a griefers paradise, restrictions should be placed on the commander regardless of the ship he’s / she’s in. Crime should also be based in system, Anarchy - anything goes and Democracy you’ll get blasted in seconds for murder. This is how it was in the old Elite.

  5. #155
    Why do I always seem to find these threads so late

    Regardless, I think this is a worthwhile discussion so here goes.

    Crime and Punishment is a contentious issue in Elite. For several reasons.

    First - like so many areas of the game (which hopefully Beyond will remedy) the crime aspect is very underdeveloped. I hope that the "Crime" part here means FD will put some effort into improving Criminal Activity within the game. Some people like that kind of stuff and it should be encouraged.
    Looking at the post : https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/389226-DESCENDING-INTO-CRIME

    I **would** take exception to the sentence "We like the concept of how crime works in Elite Dangerous. Itís a thorough system that allows for interesting depth and choice."
    I do not believe that this is a thorough system that allows for interesting choice and depth. Like so much else, I think it fairly shallow and lacking in involved mechanics and depth. But that is just me. I may be missing something.

    The post, however, doesn't detail any improvements to criminal activity. It just highlights changes to the Punishment thereof. Important certainly, but not enough.

    I would reread the posts at https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showth...-it-out-Piracy
    I think there are some good suggestions there.

    Overall...I think both aspects need to be looked at. Crime needs improving. All aspects of crime. Not only piracy, but smuggling, assassination, the black market and other such trades as well.

    What I would like to see? To make criminal activity more rewarding and involved and interesting?
    A piracy/criminal ranking system should be implemented. "Pirate Lord" and "Dread Pirate" and "Pirate King" should be titles, but the idea of awarding them to only one player, based on whatever criteria is used, should be considered, rather than just part of a standard ranking system . Not every Pirate is a Dread Pirate, no matter how good he is. You could also have one such title per Major faction. Maybe have different cartels in charge of different stations or areas of space and all the turf wars that come with it.
    Tortuga systems or stations should definitely come into play. Finding them could be a major exercise or mission line for other players, and the possibility of a mass naval assault on a pirate base could be a neat aspect of the game to take part in.

    Gameplaywise...the current scooping system is involved, intricate and fiddly. But it isn't, to me, interesting or fun. Especially when there are a lot of canisters.
    I would like to see bulk cargo containers, each containing 2 tons of cargo...or 5 tons...or 10 or 50 or 100. Each of which requires a single action to recover. I would also like to see better recovery mechanics....the ability to buy, for example, a harpoon style grapple allowing you to "shoot" cargo to recover it. Something more manual and involved than a drone or limpet but less fiddly and time consuming than a fuel scoop.

    I am also not a fan of the "automatically become wanted system" that comes with scooping cargo. That also limits and affects legitimate salvage missions and opportunities. I think I understand the reasoning behind it - I just disagree with it. I would prefer cargo scooped up as a result of piracy to be labelled as "stolen" but not to have an actual impact unless your ship is scanned by police.

    Speaking of scanning... the current "stealth" system of sneaking cargo onto a station is also, IMO, sub par. I would prefer that outfitting your ship for crime would be a far better option, with shielded cargo compartments capable of hiding illicit goods from scans being available via the Black market. As other illegal tools and cargo should be. The Black market should be expanded, and be given it's own contacts, equipment and cargo for sale, and mission availability. More equipment focusssed on illegal activities, as well as appropriate Engineers and modifications. Not to mention, ships that can be focussed on piracy and other illegal acts. Take a Cobra or Viper or whatever, and alter the number and size of bays for a pirate version that is sold on the Black market.

    Piracy is also another activity that needs improving.
    Piracy, is theory, is simple. You are a thief. You interdict vessels and force them to hand over their cargo which you then sell. End result...profit. Treasure. Gold.
    In practise...the game usually doesn't work out quite so well for a number of reasons. Especially PvP.

    There seems little point in providing fun for one player - the pirate - at the expense of another - the victim. At the same time, piracy should be encouraged.
    But piracy isn't the act of wanton murder griefers and gankers all too often make it out to be. It is theft. Pure and simple. In essence, the pirate shouldn't be aiming to destroy the ship - he should want to take its cargo. That speaks to a need (amongst others) for a wider variety of tools. Tools geared towards disabling a ship and its defences but which don't destroy the ship.

    Initially, the ship would be disabled and you'd use Hatchbreakers to steal the cargo but ultimately, I suppose a better option would be a boarding option.
    In short, the act of destroying a ship and/or its crew should be considered murder, with hefty penalties. As should ship theft. But the act of cargo theft should be treated much more leniently, and the pirate should be reward with a bigger cargo drop, with less cargo destroyed or damaged. The pirate can then scoop this cargo up.
    Encounters should also be more dangerous - give ships and NPCs a "Call for Help" action. If this isn't stopped, the target would initiate a distress signal that will, within a timeframe dictated by system security levels, elicit an armed response. This call could also mark the cargo as "stolen" so the pirate has a double excuse to try and stop the call for help. Stolen cargo of course would then be sold at a black market at a fraction of its cost and ID you as the pirate. Meanwhile, stopping the call, jamming the targets transmissions, would make it more likely for the target to surrender.

    See how everything in a proper crime system links together? Success gives you a cargo hold of cargo that is relatively easy to pick up - failure gives you cargo that will be difficult to sell and a bounty.

    And then there could be a Notoriety system. This could affect Bounties and the ability to interact with stations outside the Tortuga systems. Smuggling, assassinations and so on should also affect this. Ideally, this would work with Faction reputation so that hitting Federation ships might make you a Hero in the Empire. Other consequences could be to make you persona non gratis at stations, or having them or the authorities shoot you on sight....while giving you a bonus to "intimidation checks" against merchants, making them more likely to surrender instead of fight. If there were mafia style crime families, notoriety may also bring up more varied missions types. A cutthroat might be offered more lucrative missions than a Scallywag.

    And so on.

    One thing I really want to see is an easing of the friendly fire rules. It happens, and it is irritating to have to leave a combat zone because a police ship strayed into your line of fire. There should be a system where you are fined (for carelessness) or a three strikes rule, where if you keep hitting the same target, THEN you get the need to be somewhere else. In short, hitting an NPC should not be enough...you need to demonstrate intent.

    The aim here is to make piracy, smuggling, bounty hunting, assassinations missions more interesting, more fun, more involved while also addressing the issues of suitable punishment. Currently, the Punishment side of the game is very weak. It needs improving.

    CMDRs accrue fines which become bounties which become fines again. Not that great.
    Any improvement also needs to realise that credits, that in game money, is no longer a problem for many players. Sure...use it, but it shouldn't be the main focus of ANY aspect of a punishment system other than the most minor of crimes.

    I'm not certain how useful applying fines and bounties to ships will be.
    The proposed systems strikes me as potentially being hugely problematic for new or casual players, and hugely irrelevant for experienced players with lots of money. Does it really matter if my Cobra is "hot" and my services restricted if I can simply swap over to a backup ship? Will paying a ridiculously small amount of money - compared to the billions I have - really be a deterrent or punishment?

    Yes - you point this out "easier to avoid consequences if youíre prepared to shelve the wanted ship".
    This isn't really a problem for many players. It isn't, to my mind, a suitable punishment.

    NPCs are I suppose simple enough - a good enough bounty if you kill the target, shared between players in proportion to the damage they do, alongside mechanics for tracking down specific targets.

    PCs, however, will require more care. Credits and ship swapping isn't really a suitable punishment, unless you are talking about a significant percentage of their overall wealth. Especially for murder. Reputation damage, ship and material confiscation, fines, denial of services and landing rights and forced relocation, but I think it woudl be preferable to retain their link to the commander rather than the ship. You shouldn't be able to escape your past that easily.
    Again - this is where the idea of better game mechanics comes in. Namely - you only get a wanted tag if you get caught...e.g. scanned with stolen goods that aren't in a shielded container or you destroy a ship after the distress call has been sent. You don't get bounties for minor crimes, and you don't get fines for major crimes. Murder should be punished harshly and secure systems should enact a tax to pay for their security.

    That is, if you are in a safe system, the locals take so much money off you to pay for the police, but you end up having fewer issues with pirates and the response to griefers is more rapid and powerful.

    So - a TLDR version?

    1: Make criminal activity more interesting with better mechanics and interaction, dedicated bases and a ranking/notoriety system, and perhaps a Mafia style criminal factions system.
    2: Punish murder....not piracy
    3: Add a criminal based reward system such as Pirate ranks.
    4: Improve the Black Market so they sell variant ships, illegal equipment and illicit cargo, all designed to help you perform criminal activity from smuggling to assassination.
    4a: The Black market should also be the goto place for illegal missions.
    5: Credits alone don't make a punishment system and the ship based systems is too easy to bypass.
    6: Safe systems should require an explicit security tax of some kind but be safer. Not paying isn't an option - you get flagged as that most heinous of criminals, the tax evader

  6. #156
    On the live-stream you said the C&P improvements should bring appropriate consequences for criminal activity to the game.

    My detail request is: what are the consequences for wanted PvP criminals?

    It seems only higher bounty, right?
    Will it still be possible for them to hide in solo/private group and will they be still untraceable for human bounty hunters?

  7. #157
    How will C+P link into future features like spacelegs and will fines be proportional to scale of crime. stealing a guys wallet should put less bounty on you than stealling 22 tons of palladium.

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