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  1. #76
    Thanks, interesting read, basically a good idea with the respawn variability and Detention Centers. Thanks for tackling the issue. Looking forward. My first thoughts:

    1. How can "consensual" PvP be carried out without gaining a bounty, if the opposing player has Report Crimes On? Example: PvPers invading other PvPers systems, for example; PvP duels and training; PvP battles.
    2. if Report Crimes automatically triggers bounties (see above), PvPers would need an indicator to know whether their (consensual) target has "forgotten" to switch it off.
    3. PvPers defending their own home system against other PvPers invading would gain bounties in their home system for defending it?
    4. If the ship itself is "hot", but not the Commander, couldn't a "griefer" just change through his many ships and continue as "clean" every time he switches? We know money is not such an issue, and Suicidewinder attacks and Seal clubbers need no expensive engineered ships.
    5. Is it planned to send challenging (!) waves of Police and Bounty Hunter NPCs after CMDRs with higher bounties?

  2. #77
    Just for noting sake, Sandro, please explain if karma system is planned, will tie into this, and how it might leverage some real life issues with crime activities related with meta?

  3. #78

    Do you regard smuggling being part of this crime discussion?
    I ask because smuggling is a part of ED which I think should also be overhauled in the Beyond series.

  4. #79
    You understand that you are putting a system of punishment... but giving NO REWARD for the process of being a criminal right? this is a MAJOR flaw into the system... there's no rewarding experience of being a criminal in game. WHICH is a MAJOR flaw in this idea.

  5. #80
    Dear FDev,

    I'm struggling to see the Mission Statement here... what is the exact objective that a new C&P system is to resolve?

    What has been stated here:

    is a list of desirable attributes, not a mission statement. By this I mean your intent for the games C&P system. Some example suggestions below:

    1. The purpose of the C&P system is to promote positive and collaborative playing styles [in Open] by punishing crimes committed by commanders with a scalable punishment system that cannot be evaded or deferred in such a way as to nullify or reduce the punishment of a crime (e.g. suiwinder) or is beneficial to committing crimes. For example:
    a. Destruction of property (clean skimmers, base installations etc) and friendly fire results in a proportional fine.
    b. If caught while smuggling (trafficking of illicit goods within a system), the fine should scale and exceed the value of the cargo accordingly and the cargo is impounded.
    c. If a commander commits murder (attacking a clean commander/NPC), the punishment should be effective to deter future similar actions. I don’t know how this would affect PP.

    2. C&P is balanced toward encouraging equitable playing styles to limit ganking and griefing of players as far as is possible, by punishing such actions in such a way as to be accumulative and unavoidably unfavourable, with the intent to promote positive player interaction in Open.
    a. In the case of ganking, where 2 or more players attack a clean commander, the severity of punishment is commensurate to the number of attacking ships and is applied to all attacking ships in the instance (e.g. within a wing).
    b. In the event of griefing, by multiple interdictions/attacks committed by the same player, the offender has an increasing punishment upon each repeated offence. Switching ships should not evade this increasing punishment upon each repeated offence.

    3. Where a player pursues a criminal career within the game (smuggling, piracy, murder) it will result in proportionally escalating penalties and restrictions upon what a criminal player style is subsequently able to do within the game and the areas that they are able to access (e.g. barred from facilities/stations/systems/factions/superpowers).

    4. In the event of a crime against another player, punishment should encompass full compensation to the offended party. This should include all commodities and data as well as the ship repairs or cost of the insurance rebuy, if destroyed. Currently, the victim has no recourse to any compensation whatsoever. This only promotes griefing within the game such as the ramming tactic in a suiwinder outside stations while in silent running. One option would be to pay the fine/bounty to the victim.

    5. Punishment should include a significant deterrent (not just financial) to continuing to pursue such a criminal career in the future.

  6. #81
    1. Does this affect NPC crime and player on NPC crime?
    2. Does the geographical scoping of bounties remain the same?
    3. Do bounty amounts per offense type remain the same?
    4. Is any bounty still a capital offense?
    5. Will the way ship names/pilot names become known to the player (currently, the ship only needs to be targetted from any angle) be changed to reflect the increased importance of the ship name? Will NPC mission targets be referred to by ship name and/or pilot name?
    6. Will players be able to rename a hot ship? Will there be an underlying player-visible unique ship identifier?
    7. Will Engineers perform work on a hot ship?

  7. #82
    I like the sound of these changes, but it's going to take some getting used to. How do you intend to implement them? Will it be an overnight change? Will existing fines and bounties be erased?

  8. #83

    Detail Request for Crime/ Punishment Update

    Hello Dev Team,

    first of all in the following text I cannot guarantee gramatical correctness since I am no native speaker (So sorry for that).

    Since I play the game I do think about the crime system. When I started the game and moved to bigger ships I learned very quickly that open play is a very dangerous place.
    The game reminded me of DayZ for example where you just cannot trust anyone. I had the feeling that many people just search for ships just to destroy them for no reason. I mean I never had a bounty but still I got attacked frequently. Since then I barely play in open play, because I am afraid to go bankrupt by rebuying my ship 2 times a day. I think I am not the only one who has this issue.

    I think one reason why so many people just attack for no reason is the lack of an appropiate crime system. So it is nice that you started to think about a new one.
    But to be honest some features just let me doubt the effectiveness of the new one (for example that you can pay the bounty and be done with it).

    Now comes the second issue (I have a detail request which could solve both thats why I point out the two issues first).
    The second issue is that the game has a vast area to play in and that is great but in comparison to the vast area (even in the bubble) the player base is too small. The problem with this unbalance is, that the game feels empty and lifeless. Furthermore since the playerbase is still huge and active its still very anomynous. I did not meet or get to know many players till the launch of multicrew update. That was a great step towards a vivid galaxy. A reason why you have problems to make friends in this game is next to the missing opportunities the fact that you get a serious trust issue because of many criminals (the first issue: players attack others with no reason (no piracy, no bounty)).

    So my proposal to bring in more interaction between players on both sides:

    1. Players who commit crime should be punished by way higher bounties for their respective crimes.
    2. Starports should have a complete Criminal List of all Criminals in a certain sector the bubble or else the whole galaxy (certain sector is probably more fair).
    3. These Lists should also give detailed information about (Last Seen Criminal(so when?), Last Starport docked?, and maybe even Most Visited Starport.
    4. This is how you make the game more vivid. You support Bounty Hunters by this.
    Because they see players with way higher bounties than before and then it is maybe worth their while to hunt them down (especially with the detailed information list in stations(look above). By this criminal players also get what they want player conflicts (pvp) and maybe wont need to hunt and destroy so many little innocent people.
    5. Bounties should not be cleared by paying a sum. And actually it should be placed on the commander. So that he cant dodge persecution by changing the ship.

    To sum up: Committing Crime will be more difficult and questionable, especially if you attacking a cobra mk3 with no bounty and no special loot.
    Like this Criminals would need to find big fishes or atleast larger fishes to make it worth. On the other side the ones who only want pvp can have their pvp with the bounty hunters or become bounty hunters themselves. To Balance all this you could also think about making piracy more profitable and maybe easier? So that we have a game in the end where you really can become a criminal and do piracy or maybe shooting enemy fac ships cos its profitable in some occasions and on the other side you can become a bounty hunter cos its profitable and worth your while to hunt down criminals. Bounty Hunters would also be kinda trustworthy for innocent players (maybe ppl could also mark themselves as official bounty hunters) Respawn and rebuying things you proposed seem to be quite good. So my detail request is not about to change everything you thought about.

    One important Point for this would be to rise the combat log time from currently 15 seconds to atleast a minute. Often I saw commanders in corvettes killing smaller ships and when the big guys came to avenge them these guys just combat logged.

    Future Add-ons could be that players can set up a bounty on others, but this is another story cos it could be abused and I havent thought much about it yet.

    I hope I did not forget something but I am certain I did (I have so many ideas in my mind but if I gotta write them down I forget atleast 50% of it xD)
    In my opinion your Proposal is okay it is an improvement but I doubt that it is the improvement we need.

    I hope I ll be able to play in open play frequently again someday with more roleplay and less motiveless mass murderers.

    Fly Safe Cmdrs!

    Ray Gateway, 11/08/3303
    Cmdr Moun Tain

  9. #84
    Detail request: How does the KWS fit into the proposed changes?

    If I get a ship "Hot", and then switch to a "Cool" ship... Does someone completing a KWS scan make my "Cool" ship also turn "Hot"?

  10. #85
    Would anarchy systems be havens for wanted criminals? Freely store modules, sell ships, re-arm, etc? Or would there still be some cost/restriction within anarchy systems?

  11. #86
    hey all you devs. I gotta start by congratulating you guys on this new thread system. It's streamlined and easy to use and more importantly it gives us (the community) an idea of where Elite is going and makes us all feel a part of the creative process. which for lack of a better word is amazeballs. thank you for this, I am sure there are now many many happy commanders.

    okay onto business. I must say I am a fan of the newly proposed crime and punishment system, sounds pretty workable to me. Although a commander a few pages back asked about how undermining will roll into this as it is basically a crime. And while on that point, some BGS tactics also involve ganking ships and attacking surface bases (extremely fun but also a crime), and this would severely limit players wanting to take advantage of those mechanics for a faster influence grind. Also there are plenty of BB quests out there asking commanders to perform illegal acts, will these quests be edited to give higher payouts or better rewards due to their now much greater risks?
    you mentioned that you will using special mega ships to act as detention centres in game, well there are plenty of penal colonies spread across the game, can you not use some of these or is that too difficult considering some players will not own horizons.

    I think there are a lot of questions asking you to clarify that it is the SHIP that gets the bounty rather than the commander: example "If I get a ship "Hot", and then switch to a "Cool" ship... Does someone completing a KWS scan make my "Cool" ship also turn "Hot"?"
    also some clarification on the fact that SHIP INTERNAL MODS will also be labled as 'hot' preventing commanders with quadrillions of credits simply buying a new ship and swapping mods.

    Finally, someone asked if you will be able to see commanders on the BB bounty hunting quests.. although this idea is a bit of a stretch I think it would also be a wildly popular one, maybe a special bounty hunting board, one for each of the four superpowers (independent being one board) that lists the top ten highest bounty holding commanders. these boards could be found at those special mega ships you have suggested.... just an idea

  12. #87
    So say my ship is hot

    Can I transfer my ships and modules about anarchy systems?
    Did I read that right?

    Also. How does this affect CGs. Are we not allowed to participate in hot ships? Just curious as you know what they say about idle hands

  13. #88
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    A hot ship would be hot everywhere. However service restrictions would only apply in the appropriate jurisdictions
    Could we have a bit more detail on what "appropriate jurisdictions" means? Would it be possible to avoid some of the proposed consequences by hopping a political border or running to an appropriately disreputable den of scum and villainy?

  14. #89
    In general, I think this system has a lot of potential. A few questions/comments:

    -How will the new system address bounties/fines incurred by completing missions for minor factions (skimmer kill missions, etc.) I don't want to have to do time because I'm running missions for my chosen faction.

    -The new system needs to allow for some legitimate PvP opportunities. I don't currently PvP but I would like to start, it would be nice if there were mechanics/gameplay in place to allow CMDRs to engage in PvP without having to have an expensive, min/maxed, engineered ship. Perhaps this could be part of a revamped PowerPlay that is Open only and encourages undermining.

  15. #90
    Additional question to be posed:

    What safeguards will prevent a genuine pirate from falling foul of this attempt to remove non-consensual pvp from the game, seen as threats of violence (the only way to pull a reasonable haul) wont stop any merchant trying to run (because of the draconian penalties you'll possibly face)?

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