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Thread: Livestream - Beyond - Focused Feedback with Sandro Sammarco 7PM GMT (16/11/17)

  1. This is the last staff post in this thread. #1

    Livestream - Beyond - Focused Feedback with Sandro Sammarco 7PM GMT (16/11/17)

    Hi everyone,

    Tonight I'll be joined by Sandro Sammarco at 7PM GMT to talk about Crime and Punishment in the Beyond series of updates (2018).
    We'll be discussing the focused feedback forum - why we're doing it, how we're doing it and talking about the feedback we've received so far, and how that may influence game development.

    See you at 7PM.

  2. #2
    Drat - I'm going to see Paddington. Have fun and play nice everyone!

  3. #3
    Hooray for everything \o/


  4. #4
    Woo hoo! Looking forward to this stream - oh yus!

    Originally Posted by Alec Turner View Post (Source)
    Drat - I'm going to see Paddington. Have fun and play nice everyone!
    (it's a great movie - went with wife & weans at the weekend)

  5. #5
    The Return.... of the lost human race of Naboo!

  6. #6
    Incidentally, a HUGE pile of questions which might otherwise be asked tonight have already been answered by Sandro over here ...

    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commanders!

    How are pure credit fines going to deter players with billons in the bank to whom money is basically meaningless?
    Criminal players represent a subset of the game’ population. Super rich criminals a much smaller subset. On top of this the fact is that the current live build can be exploited to avoid paying dues, and authority ships are not able to cope with heavily engineered vessels. At the very least, we think that the proposal is significantly more effective.

    Are you concerned that too many faction specific penalties will just make it easier to avoid consequences and also make the system more complex.

    This should simply not be possible. The proposal uses a cut down version of the live rules. In fact, the only factional additions are Interstellar bounties, which make avoiding consequences significantly more difficult to achieve, and Power bounties, which help make the system more legible.

    How will the tactic of sidewinder ramming to incur a huge penalty on the other player be fixed here?
    Ramming is an issue we want to look at. It may be we can tweak the ramming crime to mitigate against this behaviour, though it may be that a karma solution is still required.

    Would you agree that any C&P system has to reflect consequences to the player community not just in game ones. How would these proposals address that?

    Not sure I understand this one, but in general, I think not. The legal system is a set of absolute rules to govern consequences in our game world.

    Now that ships will be 'wanted' or 'hot', how will this affect bounty boards? Will bounty boards show a CMDR name, or a ship name?

    Good question. We’ll need to address this. We don’t have super solid plans at the moment.

    If a criminal is in a 'cold' ship, will a scan from a CMDR (in a jurisdiction they are wanted) or KWS (in any other jurisdiction) reveal their other bounties, and if so, how will that affect the ship they are currently in? The same question could be asked from the perspective of system authority.
    The Kill Warrant scanner would need to operate in a fundamentally different manner, with the intent always being that it tries to maximise profit for the bounty hunter.

    As for the 'hot' ships, what is the 'geographical' scope of the service limitations? Is it system, faction, or super power wide? Does it escalate?

    A hot ship is service limitations in jurisdictions where it is wanted, which could be factions, power areas or superpower areas. With Interstellar bounties, there could be escalation from faction to super power. There might be additional costs and limitations for ship transfer as well. It’s still regarded as a “hot” ship because it’s wanted somewhere.

    How does being in a "hot" ship affect the way NPC security vessels interact with us (constant interdictions in supercruise ? faster entry in normal space when a crime is detected ? ) ?
    Nominally there is no effect. Just because a ship is hot does not mean that everyone has preternatural knowledge of it. The size of the bounty and security level of a system are still the key drivers for interactions in space.

    A lot of people think PvP is fun, so how exactly do you think making them respawn (potentially) hundreds of light years away - making them unable to efficiently play the game the way they want - is a good idea?
    We have been looking at the feedback and we’re considering a change to reduce distance to prison locations fairly considerably. Of course, we also want to balance different folks' desires, such as ensuring the system makes as much consistent, logical sense as possible. Everyone is playing the game the way they want – within the framework of the game rules.

    How this C&P changes will roll out for Powerplay? We have mechanic known as Undermining. Which is pretty much a crime..
    We will introduce power bounties, which will deal with all crimes between powers, allowing Powerplayers to collect bounties from their opponents without interference from local authorities.

    What happened to interstellar bounties, i.e. across the whole Federation etc? I hope those are not eliminated.
    No, we think they’re suitable for this feature. On a related note, after looking at the proposal in light of feedback, we think we won’t need the Pilot’s Federation bounties, so we will likely retire that concept.

    What would happen if you don't have the credits to pay for the legal costs and what happens to your ship?
    Standard rules apply, you end up in a Sidewinder, losing your ship and the bounties on it that you can’t afford to pay off after loans.

    How about scaling the PF bounty to their total asset value? Make it sting a more than it does now, where even a high bounty is basically a drop in the ocean for anyone who can afford an Anaconda.
    We’re fairly sure we won’t need the Pilot’s Federation bounty as it only existed to ensure criminals could not avoid paying legal costs when caught. However, we’d likely be increasing bounties in general. This, coupled with an enforced rebuy, feels significant.

    Does this mean we can effectively play a multi-role Cmdr depending on which ship we are in, ie Hot ship - criminal, Clean ship - explorer etc, and jump between the two?
    Multi-crew is a very interesting question. We’re currently thinking that we will need to change the ability to ignore all consequences when jumping back to your own vessel and ensure that you take some penalty with you/your ship assets, purely to mitigate trolling. For example, crimes incurred during Multi-crew are applied to your most expensive vessel.

    Say we're trying to undermine a federally controlled system in order to prevent Imperial expansion. If you're saying "jurisdiction" means "Federal," that's really ugly. It would mean you could end up wanted in your home system for UMing a power from the opposite faction, because the place they're taking over shares a common type. It would just drive people to base out of Anarchy systems to avoid being unable to outfit your own ship.
    Jurisdiction normally means “faction”, though with Interstellar bounties this could escalate to a superpower region such as the Federation. However, if you’re talking about undermining in Powerplay, this would be covered by its own set of Powerplay crimes that issued Power bounties, which we hope would address your concern (you’d be committing Powerplay crimes rather than standard ones).

    About respawn proposition and limited access to services, will they work only if you get destroyed or scan by security ship or the station ?
    Respawning to a prison/rehab vessel would only occur if a valid bounty for your jurisdiction was detected before ship destruction (or if you would otherwise launch from a hostile faction starport, which currently invites death). Services restriction would occur automatically at any starport where your ship was wanted. The conceit here would be that you use an anonymous connection to the services network to avoid detection.

    Is the new C&P system will be followed by gameplay additions / improvments to support it (i.e how to support Bounty hunter / pirates ? giving them incentives / tools to do it ,...) ? Or it is not planned ?
    Bounty hunting and piracy are some of the areas we’re interested in looking at, though we’ve nothing to talk about at the moment.

    How is crimes on/off going to handled if this new system goes ahead? Not sure if it's been mentioned elsewhere, but i'd like a system where you can only toggle crimes on/off if docked to stop obvious problems, such as in PVP fights.. Also, we would need to be able to check bottom left when we scan a ship to clearly see if they have crimes on or off set too.
    Crime reporting ostensibly needs no change and would works as it currently does. Any changes/improvements to it would be based on their own merit.

    I'd also like to know, as others have asked, as to what benefits you're considering for those that choose to go against the law? Surely there should be some kind of potential rewards to counter this harsher punishment system?
    We could possibly argue that for too long the criminals have had an unfair advantage in avoiding consequences for their actions. The system is not harsher, it’s would just be more enforceable. That’s not to say we don’t want to improve rewards for piracy though.

    Will this new system make it harder for hot ships to fly in high security and easier in low sec/anarchy systems? I'm talking about police chasing them all over those high security system in the jurisdiction where they're wanted, as long as stations not welcoming them and offering less services.

    Not necessarily, though authority response is getting beefed up to deal with criminals that start racking up large bounties.

    At the same time I think there should be far less restriction in anarchy systems for hot ships so that the pirate career can be viable and fun.

    There are already no restrictions in anarchy systems, except around starports?

    "Just how limited the services would be?"
    "Current thoguhts: you could complete active missions, visit the blackmarket, Interstellar Factors, and security office if the ship only had a fine on it"
    Again we need more clarification. Repairing your ship? Restocking your ship? What are the current thoughts on these essential services?

    We currently lean towards what we said, so one might assume that anything not stated was unavailable. It’s a range we could tweak, obviously.

    Q. Will "hot ships" appear slightly differently on the scanner or contacts? or have some kind of alert in the info-panel?

    No, for all intents and purposes they would be clean or wanted as they appear now. Their “hot” status is only important with regards to starport services. The only exception to this might be the Kill Warrant Scanner, which we’re still considering.

    Is it envisaged that there will be any change to the influence/state effects of murder?
    From these changes, no, unless someone highlights a reason to do so.

    How are the changes intended to tie in with the beefed up sys security response to effect crimes in progress?

    They don’t necessarily need to tie in any differently. They are to ensure that due process occurs *once* a ship has been destroyed. Advanced Tactical Responders are there to ensure there is a reasonable threat of the ship *being* destroyed.

    With the ships being HOT vs the CMDR - does this mean in a clean ship I don't have to deal with the magical spawning NPC bounty hunters that follow me across the universe for a 2k bounty?
    Correct. A clean ship means no one wants to kill it for bounties, right?

    Would your ship be hot in anarchy systems?
    Technically yes, though hot ships only trigger affects in jurisdictions where they are wanted, except for some ship/module transfer rules (we have to prevent Commanders from bypassing costs by transferring stuff around without consequence).

    -Will "hot ships" cool down over time if stored? and if so, what sort of period are we talking about?
    Not currently, you’d need to use the Interstellar Factors to clean them.

    -Are bounties and fines still system-specific, or will some be universal?
    Bounties are jurisdiction-specific. The jurisdiction could be for a faction, a power or a superpower.

    what exactly makes a ship (player) hot, and what resets this state?
    A hot ship is a ship that has a bounty on it. Paying legal costs during respawn flow or using Intersteller Factors would be the only way to clear the status.

    does "crimes off" switch the system off for pvp?

    Of course. The system is not that different in principle.

    Sandro, can you please confirm that these changes apply to all three modes?
    Yes they would.

    How do wanted passengers fit into this? They let system authority shoot your ship as if it had a bounty on it, so do they make your ship "hot"?
    If detected, yes.

    Wondering what will happen if I don't have enough money to pay the bounty after re-spawning at the prison ship - would I lose my ship or be able to pay it with assets?
    You can use ships to pay off costs and rebuy, as well as your loan. If you can’t pay then we’re afraid it’s Sidewinder time.

    Which crimes are you applying these rules to? PvP only or PvE and PvP?
    All of the above.

    With updated rules for punishment will there also be an updated gameplay element for criminal play or should we just give up and go straight?

    Or accept consequences for criminal activity? On a more serious note, we’d like to take further looks at piracy, amongst other things. But in context here, these changes are about making the crime system function better as a consequence for committing crimes.

    What happens when a Commander has a bounty and then parks their "hot" ship and flies away in another ship and is then destroyed? Do they still pay the same penalties as if they were flying their "hot" ship?
    Normal rules apply, they follow the standard respawn flow based on the ship they were in and their hot ship remains parked where it was.

    I like roleplaying a small time criminal. Smuggling, assassination, a bit of piracy. Is there going to be any fleshing out of the criminal career path, or is this just about punishment?
    This particular concept focuses on consequence. Other stuff might follow.

    will there be weapons/utilites that allow me to hold someone in place for at least 20 seconds, so a hatchbreaker limpet can do its work, without applying a kill-on-sight bounty on my head ship ?
    That’s outside the remit of this concept (though we’d like to make piracy more efficient). However, we’re likely going to significantly increase bounties for murder, so as a pirate that avoids such, cleaning your ship should not be impossible.

    So, aside from the megaship idea, is there still a plan to have wanted criminals spawn at the nearest penal settlement in nothing but a stock sidewinder-& be forced to get back to one of their regular ships? I remember that discussion during the beta, & is something I would still like to see.
    No. We feel that would be going too far.

    Another question-if a player limits their crimes to the factions affiliated to a single super power, will they still be welcome within the jursidictions of other super powers? After all "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter".
    In many ways this concept is very similar to the current rules, which strongly support the concept of being a hero in one area and a villain in another. If you don’t commit crimes in Imperial jurisdictions, you’ll never be wanted by Imperial authorities, and so on.

    How does the new crime system interact with minor faction missions that require you to carry out illegal activities in another system? Will it not be very hard to gain influence in a new system, when all of your supporter's ships are wanted there because of previous missions?

    It should be no worse than it was ever meant to be. If you commit a bunch of crimes in a system, they’re not going to like you. Missions are choices.

    What about existing legacy fines/bounties?
    Good question! We’re currently thinking we’d need a one-time amnesty for all crimes.

    If i have understood correctly Bounties and fines are still linked to a factional jurisdiction what happens in Independent systems?
    Presumably your actions in one independent systems are not accountable in another because by their very nature they're independent. So far the talk about restricted starport services etc. have only been referenced to major factions and we know that anarchy systems are exempt, some clarification around Independent systems roles would be appreciated.

    To be clear, service restrictions would apply at the factional level, not just at superpower level. So the basic premise is identical to the current system: crimes against a faction cause restrictions for that faction. The new stuff is Interstellar bounties, which could escalate the restrictions to superpower areas (e.g. every Federal faction) and Power bounties would only ever apply to power areas (and to be fair, it’s not clear whether such bounties would ever restrict services, they are more to govern Powerplay interactions).

    If I commit a crime against a faction affiliated to a Super Power, will I also gain a Super Power wide bounty/fine as well? If so, what happens if I have a Federal Faction asking me to commit a criminal act against another Federal Faction?
    You only get superpower bounties if you repeatedly commit crimes against factions aligned to the superpower. Taking missions that ask you to commit crimes is a choice. If you keep doing it, you’d end up with a superpower bounty. Of course, you could keep paying your way out from this by using different ships to commit the crimes, or by using Interstellar Factors to clean your ship before it gained an interstellar bounty.

    Will the ATR scale in response or effectiveness with system security status?
    They scale primarly with bounty accrued at a location, and response based on bounty and system security. They are bad news.

    Will firing on a ship, and gaining a bounty, incur the same level of restrictions etc, as destroying a ship?

    Yes, though it will be significantly cheaper to remove, and we’d be giving more leeway with friendly fire accidents.

    Q: It very much looks like this will start to drive pirates and other types of ruffians into Anarchy systems, which, in my opinion is a good thing because it'll make Anarchy systems much more dangerous places to fly through - is this one of the intentions of this crime change?
    Kind of. We would like to see criminals lair in anarchies a little more, and feel more risk when operating in higher security systems.

    Q: Others are of the opinion that criminal bounties should stay on a player's head - but presumably this is covered with a Karma system and you are intending a player Karma system to work in tandem with 'hot ships' ?
    Karma is still required for things like combat logging, and possibly ramming. To be clear about the crime being on the ship – this is intentional because we want to offer options to criminal players: they can always swap ships as well as clear vessels or live with bounties. We want consequences for criminal activities, not punishments that will prevent criminal activities.

    Q: Can you please clarify that, when you say a ship is "Hot", this (and all the restrictions that go with it) apply only to stations where the faction that issued those bounties has control?
    Yes, with the caveat of ship and module transfer, which need to have restrictions/costs everywhere to ensure that you can’t avoid costs.

    Q: In a similar vein, if such a system were put in place, would it be guaranteed that a faction would never offer a mission that would cause the player to become wanted to that faction?
    I believe that should more or less be the case right now. Regardless, taking missions is always a choice. And with the ability to swap ships at least you have more options.

    is there anything over problematic like killing a CMDR wanted in another jurisdiction with a KWS be changed?
    We’re looking at options here. The current favourite is to change the KWS so that it always awards the highest bounty from a ship kill, regardless of jurisdiction (this would not make attacking legal though).

    Does this proposed system supplant the karma system, or will that still be coming to complement this?
    We think that this system reduces the need for karma to be all encompassing. There are some activities however, such as combat logging, that only karma will likely be able to address.

    How can "consensual" PvP be carried out without gaining a bounty, if the opposing player has Report Crimes On? Example: PvPers invading other PvPers systems, for example; PvP duels and training; PvP battles.
    It can’t. That’s the point of report crimes functionality. And it’s no different from the live rules in this regard.

    PvPers defending their own home system against other PvPers invading would gain bounties in their home system for defending it?
    What do you mean by “invading”? If they are breaking the law, they will become criminals and can be attacked legally. If the system is an anarchy then no crimes are logged. If they are carry out acts of Powerplay then Power bounties will be issued.

    If the ship itself is "hot", but not the Commander, couldn't a "griefer" just change through his many ships and continue as "clean" every time he switches? We know money is not such an issue, and Suicidewinder attacks and Seal clubbers need no expensive engineered ships.

    Mitigation is the watchword here. It would be wholly inaccurate to say that credits are not an issue for everyone. Coupled with the fact that the proposed system and supporting mechanics such as improved authority response make the likelihood of having to pay the credit costs immeasurably more likely and that the weaker the criminal’s ship is the less effective it is overall we suggest that overall there would be an effect.

    Is it planned to send challenging (!) waves of Police and Bounty Hunter NPCs after CMDRs with higher bounties?

    More or less. The authorities will have access to special ships for offenders that cause enough trouble in an instance. They are 100% pure beef.

    Just for noting sake, Sandro, please explain if karma system is planned, will tie into this, and how it might leverage some real life issues with crime activities related with meta?
    Karma is still being considered, but we’ve nothing more to announce about it right now, other than to say we think this system takes some of the pressure off of karma, potentially allowing it to focus on areas where it would have most impact.

    Do you regard smuggling being part of this crime discussion? I ask because smuggling is a part of ED which I think should also be overhauled in the Beyond series.

    Depends on what you’re saying about smuggling and this proposal.

    Does this affect NPC crime and player on NPC crime?

    It affects crimes against human and NPC ships.

    Does the geographical scoping of bounties remain the same?
    Yes, with the caveat of interstellar and power bounties having their own defined geography.

    Do bounty amounts per offense type remain the same?
    Nope, we’d likely change them up, increase murder a fair bit especially.

    Is any bounty still a capital offense?

    Will the way ship names/pilot names become known to the player (currently, the ship only needs to be targetted from any angle) be changed to reflect the increased importance of the ship name? Will NPC mission targets be referred to by ship name and/or pilot name?
    No. Ship names are not important. The ship is.

    Will players be able to rename a hot ship? Will there be an underlying player-visible unique ship identifier?
    Yes, but this will have no effect on the proposal.

    Will Engineers perform work on a hot ship?
    Yes, unless it’s hot in their jurisdiction!

    I like the sound of these changes, but it's going to take some getting used to. How do you intend to implement them? Will it be an overnight change? Will existing fines and bounties be erased?
    As stated, we’d probably need a one-time amnesty, as well as a lot of supporting information.

    So say my ship is hot. Can I transfer my ships and modules about anarchy systems?
    There would need to be limitations. You’d always be able to transfer hot ships to anarchies, because anarchies don’t deal with laws. However, the cost of transferring hot ships might increase. Modules is far more interesting. It’s possible we’d need to restrict hot modules from being fitted into a new ship until cleaned at cost, to prevent Commanders from avoiding legal costs. We think we’d definitely need to do something to ensure that costs could not be cleaned for free.

    Also. How does this affect CGs. Are we not allowed to participate in hot ships? Just curious as you know what they say about idle hands
    Good Question. A baseline answer would be no, the ship needs to have access to starport services. But we’re reasonably confident we have wiggle room here, if required.

  7. #7
    Great! looking forward to hear something! like the new series.

  8. #8
    I shall laugh heartily if Sandro's answer to the question about how our feedback may affect development is "It won't, y'all have terrible ideas".

  9. #9
    Thanks Ed. Will watch it for sure.

    Will anything else be covered in the livestream or is it C&P only?


  10. #10
    Gankers Paradise! Look forward to it and all the salty tears

  11. #11

    If you can, would you provide a YouTube Gaming link? Their 'gaming' site allows for a bigger picture while still keeping the chat on screen for what I think is a better experience.

    I'll add that I don't know what goes on behind the scenes, so I don't know if this is beneficial or even possible to generate before the stream starts.


    - Jubs

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by himurajubei View Post (Source)

    If you can, would you provide a YouTube Gaming link?
    Here is the youtube link:

  13. #13
    Don't you guys never read the OP? The link is there already and it wasn't edited.

  14. #14
    I must admit I did enjoy the idea of a penitentiary for needless murders. Especially if they have to wear a ball and chain, wield a pick, and hit stones all day everyday for a pittance, and eventually get released once they accumulate enough money to cover the loss of their victims ship!

    Interesting C&P proposition!

  15. #15
    Thanks Sandro Sammarco for the time and doing this stream. Very interesting ideas, and some good arguments for them.

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