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Thread: Sandro confirmed roll 1-5 for every new module..

  1. #151
    So whatever engineering I do on any module now, will be lost with the update if i want to further engineer that module? and for whatever module that i have now, if I want to engineer it further, I will have to grind it all over again? Frontier's solution to the grind problem forces us to repeat all the grind one more time?

    This sounds so wrong, I think I misiterpreted something. Did I?

  2. #152
    Originally Posted by Besensec View Post (Source)
    So whatever engineering I do on any module now, will be lost with the update if i want to further engineer that module? and for whatever module that i have now, if I want to engineer it further, I will have to grind it all over again? Frontier's solution to the grind problem forces us to repeat all the grind one more time?

    This sounds so wrong, I think I misiterpreted something. Did I?
    Yes

    You can keep what you have.

    If you want to change it it will drop back to the previous grade in the new system i.e. g5 drops to top of g4 then the new roll starts from there.

  3. #153
    Originally Posted by Besensec View Post (Source)
    So whatever engineering I do on any module now, will be lost with the update if i want to further engineer that module? and for whatever module that i have now, if I want to engineer it further, I will have to grind it all over again? Frontier's solution to the grind problem forces us to repeat all the grind one more time?

    This sounds so wrong, I think I misiterpreted something. Did I?
    Nope, for all we know that's correct. Better try to get your G5 access and go(o)d rolls now .

  4. #154
    Shan,
    You seem to be particularly worried about this change. I heard Sandro's Truth or Donate explanation on how engineering was meant to work and I think he is trying to improve what is currently in place. I am not sure it is the eventual endpoint that it looks like you are wanting but it does appear to address some substantial concerns.

    Your post contains most of the salient concerns.

    Originally Posted by Shanaeri View Post (Source)
    1. It requires nor demands any skill AT ALL. Once you know where to go, thatís it. You know everything there is to know after one set of 1-5
    Engineering has never required skill in that sense. Currently, once you have been invited to an Engineer, you have his 'address' on your gal map. The proposed changes don't appear to change the initial discovery at all. If anything, once unlocked, the possibility of being able to re-engineer a level of upgrade at multiple locations reduces the need to jump to a particular location in the galaxy. i.e. The horrible need to transport the Cutter or Corvette to Felicity to upgrade the FSD - it will be able to be done locally.

    Originally Posted by Shanaeri View Post (Source)
    2. For most cases you will need to craft and trash at least 4 times, locking you into an RNG materials hunt
    For that concern, Sandro has previous flagged two potential improvements
    a) the material trader. Allowing you to trade one material for another (at exorbitant rates) reducing the need to hunt for elusive items
    b) increased material storage. You will no longer need to juggle your material within the 1000 limit. Each material will have it's own pot.

    Originally Posted by Shanaeri View Post (Source)
    3. Itís busy work. It serves no purpose other than to act as a time gate and to waste the players precious free time
    4. You will need to spend time looking for mats for 1-4 just to waste that time. And you will need to do this for every modules or weapon.. think of the wasted time to engineer a big 3 shipís weapons. For example
    With the more consistent upgrade path, you don't need to go all the way to the top of the G5 structure in one go. Each upgrade will be an improvement on the last. With respect to the 'trash' element, you may feel that the G3-2 upgrade gives you sufficient an improvement in one area so that you can look to upgrade another but when you do continue, the G3-3 upgrade is better still.

    Originally Posted by Shanaeri View Post (Source)
    5. This is frontiers 3rd go at engineering and the same issues remain as the first time.. It has and will not solve them, it simply moves it from the end of the process to the start..
    I don't see this in the proposals. The biggest gripe I saw reflected in the current engineering system was that not all G5 rolls were the same, no matter what you did. I could get a G5 god roll straight off the bat with my first roll and you could spend weeks and get no where near. That uncertainty and frustration has been removed. 'Moving the issue to the start' is probably part of point 7. below.

    Originally Posted by Shanaeri View Post (Source)
    6. There is no alternate method weíve been told about to get to the higher grades. Itís craft and trash or nothing.
    This point is really the same as point 4. above. With each engineering upgrade being better than the one before, the game will not penalise you for pausing mid way through the engineering journey to the end.

    Originally Posted by Shanaeri View Post (Source)
    7. It resets players progress, effectively negating all the time spent over the past 2 years levelling up with engineers
    This is the grandfathering consideration. My understanding of what Sandro tried to explain went as this:
    - Current engineering rolls will remain. They will be considered in place in perpetuity.
    - If you look to carry out further upgrades. At this point, your module will start at the bottom of the rank that you are looking to apply to the module.
    i.e. if you have a G5 engineering FSD, you can have it further engineering but at that point it will be considered to be G5-0 (it hasn't had any G5 upgrades applied to it).
    - the first applied G5 upgrade will be G5-1 and will be a base improvement over anything that you could have got from a G4 upgrade. The next upgrade applied to that module would be G5-2, better than G5-1 but not as good as if you applied a further upgrade, and so on.
    - The original grandfathered G5 module configuration will sit somewhere on the upgrade arc. For some people it will be towards the bottom, for some it will be towards the top. It will be down to the individual engineer whether they want to sink the time and effort to upgrade it beyond it's current state or want to stick with it's current configuration.

    Overall, I see the improvements as a good tweak to what is in place at the moment, addressing some of the issues and concerns raised by the community. Sandro has also confirmed that he would like to engineering to more modules on the ship and to that end I think he was referring to the need to rank up from level one. By implicit suggestion it infers that we will receive additional engineers, the extra modules wont be bundled into the existing engineer team.

    That was my take on what I have seen and heard.
    Happy to be proven wrong but that is how I have understood what Sandro wants to do.

  5. #155
    Well, it's official, then.

    Time to engineer whatever I need engineered now. No way am I going to roll all the way through Grade 5 for every single module....that's nuts.

  6. #156
    I just want to add, that as someone who has already unlocked the Engineers and fully upgraded more than few ships. I could just as easily be saying "Well I did it, I gave up months of my life so should they".
    But I'm not. I want more people to PvP against, I want more people flying in open with confidence in their (ideally more varied) builds.

    I want new players to have a hope in hell of catching up without having to give up an exorbitant amount of time.

    Let discrepancy between pilots be based on time sunk into getting skilled at flying, not on time sunk sitting in SC waiting for signal sources to spawn.

    o7.

  7. #157
    Originally Posted by Snowymonk View Post (Source)
    This point is really the same as point 4. above. With each engineering upgrade being better than the one before, the game will not penalise you for pausing mid way through the engineering journey to the end.
    I don't really get that argument, heard it before but I don't get it. Anything G1 to G4 is just trash to throw away, each roll definitly being better doesn't change that its just trash you don't want and you only do because you have to for the sake of pointless grinding. Let just people start at G5 like now and all is good. why would anybody want to do the rank grinding all the time? why not just start at the grade you want?

  8. #158
    With the new system the ranking with an engineer is rendered worthless and pointless as no matter if you are rank1 or rank 5 EVERY module starst at rank 1 and you have to grind up to rank 5.

    All the effort of unlocking an engineer to rank 5 is likewise rendered worthless and pointless as engineer rank isn't used in the new system.

    Personally I spent the time and effort ranking all engineers to level 5, but didn't have any more time to gather materials and have no rank 5 and virtually no modules at all. If I cant find time to make use of the rank 5 engineers before the change, all of that time and effort was wasted.

  9. #159
    these are the things that kill me about elite. ive been flying for a long time, FD has had plenty of time to stop sucking at what they do, but every single update or change brings more bull, more grind, more spreadsheets.

    grind is not fun. (period)
    there.is.no.excuse.for.people.playing.minecraft.instead.of.ED.
    except for the stupid grind elements.

    want to visit the alien sites? grind palin.
    want money, HA. HAHAHAHAHAH. go to quince or.die.to.the.grind.
    want a good ship, get ready to go brain dead.

    ED is literally the only game I fall asleep playing.

    literally I log in to ED, and go grind something, it's getting ridiculous.

    FDEV is selfish. I don't think it's stupidity anymore, I think it's braben building the game HE wants to play and telling everyone to get rekt
    grind is fun! rite?!?!?!

    No... because snakes and sparklers are the only ones I like.
    Joe Dirt: Well that might be your problem, it's not what you like, it's the consumer.

  10. #160
    Originally Posted by Robert Maynard View Post (Source)
    I did not say that the time to gather material for lower grades was the same as for higher grades - merely that it takes time that is not currently required to be expended.

    Yes, progress will now be guaranteed on *every* roll - however a single G5 roll on a stock module at the moment also has a (pretty much) guaranteed improvement.

    We'll see what hoops the Material Trader requires us to pass through as and when that detail is fleshed out.



    I didn't suggest that it was - just that it is more than is required at the moment.
    I'm glad you brought this up... this brings me to another area of Engineering that I both like and dislike.. Time.

    From a player perspective, I love the fact that I can drop in at an Engineer's place ("Hey Hera, how ya doin'?" "::cough-cough-choke:: Good, though I'm running low on cigars. What can I do for you?" "Well I got this new power plant that needs your special touch. Think you can crank the output up around 70%?" "Sure, ::choke-wheeze-gag:: *poof of magical smokonium*, there ya go.")

    Yep, just like that, poof, instant stat increase, and off I go. It's nice and gamey, but that's also something I don't like. It takes time to ship a module or ship across the galaxy. It takes time to synthesize a reload for our weapons. But Engineers just poof upgrades into existence. This is something I think might be worth looking into changing - however...

    1. The length of time should be reasonable, and based on the level of the upgrade and reflective of the outcome.
    2. "Loaner" modules should be provided so we're not stuck at a facility waiting for something to finish.
    3. An inbox notification should be sent when an upgrade is complete WITH the following:
    3a. The results of the Engineering effort (percentage gains and losses, special effects, and the like)
    3b. The option to Continue Working to further improve upon the results.

    But this would mean an even further reworking of the Engineering systems, perhaps further beyond the original scope.

    Let's walk though a full-blown example:

    You pay a visit to Hera's place, with a brand new, never-before-upgraded Power Plant. You want to upgrade this to a Level 5 Overcharged Power Plant.

    Using Right Now information - and a Progressive Engineering model as planned, and a few assumptions:

    Let's assume that it takes 3 upgrades, per tier, to move from Grade 1 through Grade 5. A Grade 5 Overcharged Power Plant would cost:

    3 sulfur, 6 Conductive Components, 6 Heat Conducting Wiring, 3 Selenium, 3 cadmium, 6 Conductive Ceramics*, 3 Heat Dispersion Plates, 3 Chemical Manipulators** and 3 Tellurium.**

    * Based on current blueprints, only 4 Conductive Ceramics would be required for a single Grade 5 upgrade, following the full progression, but we're going to assume again that to reach the peak of Grade 5 we will need to make 3 engineering modifications here as well.
    ** As above, only 1 of each of these would be required but again, we're assuming 3 upgrades required to reach peak levels.

    I drop off my brand new Power Plant, a nice 6A model, Select my desired modification, in this case, Overcharged. As a secondary "kit" (I will discuss later), I choose "Reduced Mass", and then I select my target Grade - in this case Grade 5.

    Hera tells me it will take her some time to complete the work, and loans me a 0-credit value 6A Power Plant, just like what I'm leaving here so I don't have to sit around for the next (1 minute per grade 1 upgrade, 2 minutes per grade 2 upgrade, 3 minutes per grade 3 upgrade, 4 minutes per grade 4 upgrade, 5 minutes per grade 5 upgrade = 35 minutes (3x1 (3) + 3x2 (6) + 3x3 (9) +3x4 (12) + 5). So I take off, maybe fly to the Nav beacon in the system to blow up some ships while I wait.

    35 minutes later, I get a message from Hera:

    "Hera here. I've finished the upgrades to that module you requested. Here's the results of my work:
    "Heat Efficiency: -50%
    "Integrity: -61% (50% for the modification, 11% for the secondary "kit")
    "Mass: -18% (from the secondary "kit")
    "Power Generation: +10%"

    Now I have the option - I can tell Hera to keep working on it (generate the next tier of Grade 5 upgrades, or I can go pick it up and exchange my loaner module for my upgraded module).

    If I say "Keep working on it", I'll get another message in 5 minutes with new results. If I pick it up, any unspent Materials (my other 2 Conductive Ceramics, Chemical Manipulators and Tellurium) are retuned.
    If I say "Keep working on it", then 1 each of these are expended, and should I pick up after that result, I'll receive 1 of each in return. If I keep pressing the result, for a 3rd time, I'll have spent all my materials, and will only be able to pick up my modified module.

    Running out of materials should not be an option for this - you have to provide the correct amount of materials at the time of the modification request.

    ---

    Secondary "Kits" - I've mentioned these a couple of times, both in this post and in other posts.

    These are my concept of what should be done with Secondary Effects. Each kit contains a number of bonus results as well as drawbacks, much like the secondary effects we already get applied at random, with the exception of now we don't get to pick a particular effect - such as a Mass Reduction. It's purely random. By allowing us to pick a "Kit" we eliminate the random factor, and have a good idea of what we'll be getting in terms of both benefits and drawbacks. There is no additional cost for these, they're part of the blueprint "recipe" already, we just get a say-so in how and what happens. So a "Mass Reduction" kit would contain a secondary effect that reduces the module's mass, but also imposes a reduction of the module's integrity, just as an example.

    ---

    This sort of time-based, progressive Engineering.. I'm sure people will resist, just as they resisted transfer times and probably complain about Synthesis times, but I think it would only enhance the experience - you could go scout the system you're in for additional/replacement materials, or field-test yourself, or come over to the Discussion forums to post about how brilliant an idea this really was, despite your initial opposition, and I can blame it on TJ. ;-)

  11. #161
    Originally Posted by Lumpus View Post (Source)
    these are the things that kill me about elite. ive been flying for a long time, FD has had plenty of time to stop sucking at what they do, but every single update or change brings more bull, more grind, more spreadsheets.

    grind is not fun. (period)
    there.is.no.excuse.for.people.playing.minecraft.instead.of.ED.
    except for the stupid grind elements.
    I agree, grinding is not fun, so don't grind.

    Originally Posted by Lumpus View Post (Source)
    want to visit the alien sites? grind palin.
    Why do you need to grind palin to visit the alien sites?

    Originally Posted by Lumpus View Post (Source)
    want money, HA. HAHAHAHAHAH. go to quince or.die.to.the.grind.
    I get credits from doing just about anything in the game, not sure where the grind is there to be honest.

    Originally Posted by Lumpus View Post (Source)
    want a good ship, get ready to go brain dead.
    You have to grind to get a sidewinder? I got one and an Eagle for free. Once you get to a Cobra Mk3 you don't really need any other ship as it can do eveything in the game pretty well, and that only takes a few hours these days.

  12. #162
    Originally Posted by Besensec View Post (Source)
    I do and I misunderstood, I just wrote that. I assume you did not read that.

    snip
    Guys - I'll clean this little misunderstanding up... prepare to see a couple of posts disappear!


    Edit: Done

  13. #163
    Originally Posted by Besensec View Post (Source)
    I do and I misunderstood, I just wrote that. I assume you did not read that, in connection to your condescending question (and then you cry that this is a toxic forum).
    I replied at about the same time as you posted your understanding, so my apologies and I apologies if I sounded a bit condescending. It was not my intention.

  14. #164
    One word: NO!

  15. #165
    Originally Posted by Lumpus View Post (Source)
    these are the things that kill me about elite. ive been flying for a long time, FD has had plenty of time to stop sucking at what they do, but every single update or change brings more bull, more grind, more spreadsheets.

    grind is not fun. (period)
    there.is.no.excuse.for.people.playing.minecraft.instead.of.ED.
    except for the stupid grind elements.

    want to visit the alien sites? grind palin.
    want money, HA. HAHAHAHAHAH. go to quince or.die.to.the.grind.
    want a good ship, get ready to go brain dead.

    ED is literally the only game I fall asleep playing.

    literally I log in to ED, and go grind something, it's getting ridiculous.

    FDEV is selfish. I don't think it's stupidity anymore, I think it's braben building the game HE wants to play and telling everyone to get rekt
    grind is fun! rite?!?!?!

    No... because snakes and sparklers are the only ones I like.
    Joe Dirt: Well that might be your problem, it's not what you like, it's the consumer.
    Depends on what you count as a good ship. Faction grind is certainly meh. But making quick money, after a relatively short time of preparation, has become a lot easier over the course of time. Of course only IF you utilize the possibilities the game offers to you.

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