Page 4 of 26 FirstFirst 1234567814 ... LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 381

Thread: Sandro confirmed roll 1-5 for every new module..

  1. #46
    Originally Posted by Robert Maynard View Post (Source)
    The new requirement to craft every grade of modification on every module does not seem, to me, to be designed to encourage players to engage in Engineering.

    It places four new barriers between players and Grade 5 modifications that do not exist, i.e. the requirement to gather materials for modifications that are not wanted to then craft them and surpass them on the next modification - and if more than one roll at each grade is required before being able to move on to the next grade it will be even worse. The outcome of the change is to effectively increase the ingredient list of the first Grade 5 modification by a huge factor, taking Increased Range FSD G5 as an example, from 3 "units" to 9x number of rolls at each lower grade to achieve threshold for higher grade + 3 "units".

    Players that engage in "casual" crafting (I would consider myself one of them) are not interested in farming bucketloads of materials / data before crafting a module - for me it's more "collect 3 or maybe 6 of each ingredient and then apply that blueprint to as many modules as I have mats/data for" (maybe rolling up to three times in total per module).

    On reflection there may be a case to remove modification grades altogether and simply link the capability of the output to the rarity of the materials / data used for the modification itself - noting that there are five rarities of each "group" of both data and manufactured materials and partial coverage of elemental materials.

    Current Engineer related data, grouped:

    Data Group
    Very rare
    Rare
    Standard
    Common
    Very common
    Data
    Classified Scan Fragment
    Divergent Scan Data
    Classified Scan Databanks
    Unidentified Scan Archives
    Anomalous Bulk Scan Data
    Emission
    Abnormal Compact Emission Data
    Decoded Emission Data
    Unexpected Emission Data
    Irregular Emission Data
    Exceptional Scrambled Emission Data
    Encryption
    Adaptive Encryptors Capture
    Atypical Encryption Archives
    Open Symmetric Keys
    Tagged Encryption Codes
    Unusual Encrypted Files
    Firmware
    Modified Embedded Firmware
    Security Firmware Patch
    Cracked Industrial Firmware
    Modified Consumer Firmware
    Specialised Legacy Firmware
    Shielding
    Peculiar Shield Frequency Data
    Aberrant Shield Pattern Analysis
    Untypical Shield Scans
    Inconsistent Shield Soak Analysis
    Distorted Shield Cycle Recordings
    Wake
    Datamined Wake Exceptions
    Eccentric Hyperspace Trajectories
    Strange Wake Solutions
    Anomalous FSD Telemetry
    Atypical Disrupted Wake Echoes

    Current Engineer Manufactured / Salvaged materials, grouped:

    Manufactured
    Very rare
    Rare
    Standard
    Common
    Very common
    Alloys
    Military Grade Alloys
    Proto Radiolic Alloys
    Proto Light Alloys
    Thermic Alloys
    Phase Alloys
    Precipitated Alloys
    Galvanising Alloys
    Salvaged Alloys
    Tempered Alloys
    Capacitors
    Military Supercapacitors
    Polymer Capacitors
    Electrochemical Arrays
    Hybrid Capacitors
    Grid Resistors
    Chemical
    Pharmaceutical Isolators
    Chemical Manipulators
    Chemical Distillery
    Chemical Processors
    Chemical Storage Units
    Components
    Improvised Components
    Configurable Components
    Mechanical Components
    Mechanical Equipment
    Mechanical Scrap
    Composites
    Core Dynamics Composites
    Proprietary Composites
    High Density Composites
    Filament Composites
    Compact Composites
    Conductors
    Biotech Conductors
    Conductive Polymers
    Conductive Ceramics
    Conductive Components
    Basic Conductors
    Cooling
    Proto Heat Radiators
    Heat Vanes
    Heat Exchangers
    Heat Dispersion Plate
    Heat Resistant Ceramics
    Heat Conduction Wiring
    Crystal
    Exquisite Focus Crystals
    Refined Focus Crystals
    Focus Crystals
    Flawed Focus Crystals
    Crystal Shards
    Shielding
    Imperial Shielding
    Compound Shielding
    Shielding Sensors
    Shield Emitters
    Worn Shield Emitters

    Current elemental materials, grouped:

    Elemental
    Very rare
    Rare
    Standard
    Common
    Very common
    Carbon Group
    -
    -
    Tin
    Germanium
    Carbon
    Chromium Group
    -
    -
    Molybdenum
    Tungsten
    Chromium
    -
    Iron Group
    -
    Ruthenium
    -
    -
    Iron
    Manganese Group
    -
    Technetium
    -
    Manganese
    -
    Nickel Group
    -
    -
    -
    -
    Nickel
    Nitrogen Group
    -
    Antimony
    -
    Arsenic
    Phosphorus
    Oxygen Group
    -
    Tellurium
    Polonium
    -
    Selenium
    Sulfur
    Scandium Group
    -
    Yttrium
    -
    -
    -
    Titanium Group
    -
    -
    -
    Zirconium
    -
    Vanadium Group
    -
    -
    Niobium
    Vanadium
    -
    Zinc Group
    -
    -
    Cadmium
    Mercury
    Zinc
    -
    These tables make it abundantly clear that with a condensing of the elements table into 5 or 6 groups of 4 elements of each rarity, there would be a simple basis for a far better engineering system.
    Hide the module grades and use the quality of the materials to determine the primary outcomes (possibly with targeted secondaries based on additional material inputs).

    e.g. FSD Increased Range - 1 Wake Data, 1 Chemical Component, 1 'Alchemical Element' (Antimony, Mercury, Arsenic, Sulphur)
    That's 100 possible combinations of those 3 material groups.
    Each material type may be weighted towards a particular primary benefit and penalty leading to a vast array of possible results based on the combinations of rarities used.

    Add in a choice of secondaries for additional materials:
    - Reduced Heat - a Cooling Component
    - Reduced Mass - a 'Ceramic Element' (Tellurium, Molybdenum, Manganese, Phosphorus) - please forgive my chemistry ignorance, but you get the idea
    - Increased Shielding - a Shielding Data
    - etc.

    Add in some kinks to make the lower grade materials interesting - e.g. Improvised may be weighted better than Configurable Components towards one particular primary stat, but the penalty is quite a bit worse.

    Then you start to have something like a crafting system based on quality with additional choices to tailor it further.

  2. #47
    Originally Posted by sleutelbos View Post (Source)
    You dont know that. What you know is that the progression becomes more linear. How fast the progress becomes depends on other things, as for example Morbad explained. There are simply two different issues: type of progression and speed of progression. Currently we have 'one long slog towards getting to G5, and from then on skip everything and keep pumping G5 for an average of x-number of rolls to get to quality y'. Right now we change that to 'move linearly through the levels, and make a fixed number of z-rolls to get to quality y.'

    Whether it will take longer to get to y depends on whether x is larger or smaller than z, and we have little info on it. Increasing the speed, if that is what you want, by changing the type is not ideal. If you want it faster, change the blueprint requirements, mat collection or increase-per-reroll.
    You are not wrong. The problem is that now you can unlock G5 much faster than in the new system, but have to play the RNG afterwards. I like the linear progression, but there is a stong incentive to unlock everything now and just benefit from lack of RNG. I hate these powergaming strategies. Players uses them, and this kills any PvP balance.

  3. #48
    Originally Posted by Shanaeri View Post (Source)
    On the fdev live stream, Sandro confirmed we will need to roll grades 1-5 for every new module.

    Discuss...
    translator

    I understand why .. grades 1 to 4 would become useless and a lot of materials and data with that.

    actually going from grade 1 or grade 4 is not long .. lower grade materials and data are faster to find.

    and it naturally has already arrived to make a lower grade because I have only basic materials.. I am not disturbed by that.. i just come back later.

    although in general I arrange to go directly to grade 5 by looking for all the necessary materials (including inferior) to get there.

    there is also the fact that not all engineers offer grade 5 .. you need to unlock specialists.

  4. #49
    Originally Posted by sleutelbos View Post (Source)
    You dont know that. What you know is that the progression becomes more linear. How fast the progress becomes depends on other things, as for example Morbad explained. There are simply two different issues: type of progression and speed of progression. Currently we have 'one long slog towards getting to G5, and from then on skip everything and keep pumping G5 for an average of x-number of rolls to get to quality y'. Right now we change that to 'move linearly through the levels, and make a fixed number of z-rolls to get to quality y.'

    Whether it will take longer to get to y depends on whether x is larger or smaller than z, and we have little info on it. Increasing the speed, if that is what you want, by changing the type is not ideal. If you want it faster, change the blueprint requirements, mat collection or increase-per-reroll.
    To be clear, I'm referring to the point where the player has already unlocked the Engineer and Grade 5 modifications with that Engineer.

    Sandro has indicated, correct me if I am wrong, that a higher level modification will not be able to be crafted until a threshold is reached at the current grade. The inference there is that one or more modifications require to be carried out at each grade lower than the desired grade before any may be carried out at the required grade. These modifications take materials and data that require to be gathered or traded for - which takes time.

    Compared that to the current situation, i.e. arrive at Engineer with ingredients for G5 modification and craft that modification, that seems, to me at least, as if it will take longer to craft a single G5 modification (regardless of the outcome of that modification - considering that it is unlikely to achieve a worse G5 modification than the stock module to which that G5 modification can currently be applied) as n modifications take longer to craft and gather the ingredients for than 1 modification.

  5. #50
    If the intent is for pilots to actually use G1 > G4 more widely and rank up over time, then the obvious change is to move the grind to the engineer reputation instead.

    At least then it's still only a one time grind instead of every time.

  6. #51
    Originally Posted by Robert Maynard View Post (Source)
    To be clear, I'm referring to the point where the player has already unlocked the Engineer and Grade 5 modifications with that Engineer.

    Sandro has indicated, correct me if I am wrong, that a higher level modification will not be able to be crafted until a threshold is reached at the current grade. The inference there is that one or more modifications require to be carried out at each grade lower than the desired grade before any may be carried out at the required grade. These modifications take materials and data that require to be gathered or traded for - which takes time.

    Compared that to the current situation, i.e. arrive at Engineer with ingredients for G5 modification and craft that modification, that seems, to me at least, as if it will take longer to craft a single G5 modification (regardless of the outcome of that modification - considering that it is unlikely to achieve a worse G5 modification than the stock module to which that G5 modification can currently be applied) as n modifications take longer to craft and gather the ingredients for than 1 modification.
    This is true. Regardless of first G5 outcome, it will take longer to achieve "first G5" with the new system. But, achieving the "preferred G5" should be much easier even so. That is, unless even a base G5 is all you need.

    I see your point. Though I believe the intention behind engineers as a whole is for it to be a process that takes some time, assuming you aim for any grade higher than 1. I could be wrong, however. There is still time to stop the key from turning, so we will see what they decide to do.

  7. #52
    Well that kills of any incentive to ever use engineering ever again for me. I'll be grandfathering the FSD drives I already upgraded and I'll never set foot on any engineering base again. Other changes to engineering might be welcome but this one thing just destroys the feature.

  8. #53
    Yeah, not gonna touch engineers again after that change, the increase in grind is just way to big. Not all that dramatic of a problem since I engineerd most of my ships already and I can live with others being unmodded - but I do worry a bit about the whole Beyond upadte if that is FDs understanding of improving the game.

  9. #54
    Given that you will be able to 'max' a module another interesting point is: will we have more module storage? It may be more time efficient to max 1 of each module with each blueprint, and just swap them onto the ship you want to use - as the modules at G5 will be 'the same' - that way you can 'complete' engineering - but module storage/search limitations make that clunky at the moment.

    Another question is whether you can re-roll, for example, G5 Dirty Drives to G5 Clean Drives, or do you have to start again at G1 Clean Drives. If I want to respec my ship from G5 Dirty to G5 Clean right now it's 1-3 rolls (I'm not looking for max) - with the nre system it may not even be worth starting with my current mods, and will cost a lot more then 3 sets of mats.

    FD have all out engineering stats - I'm really hoping they're running them through a simulation of the new system to assess changes, but I fear not.

  10. #55
    I think it's totally fine.

    1. The number of rolls to get a maxed G5 roll before were about 15-20, and a god roll could be gotten in between 15-500 rolls.

    2. Assuming that you need about 3-5 or so rolls on average to progress to the next grade, then that means about 16 rolls to get to the beginning of grade 5, and since the top of grade 4 is apparently equal to a maxed current grade 5, then I would need about 12-20 rolls to get a current maxed roll. That's a bit better than before, and GUARANTEED progress and the ability to swap materials at a Materials Agent means that engineering is about to get one hell of a lot easier. On top of which, any new rolls in the grade 5 category are likely to make my best rolls better.

    3. My grandfathered grade 5 rolls will be the same as the new grade 4, which means that I can upgrade my non-god roll modules (which is nearly all of them) and get a significant boost without having to worry about grades 1-4. Bonus.

    Hence I think all the whinging is being done by people who just haven't really considered the current effort required vs the coming easy street. Ah well. Whingers gonna whinge about something. Maybe if they whinge enough though, they'll be able to to parley this into a even easier engineering mode? lol. Maybe that's exactly what they're doing, and I guess that's fine with me too

  11. #56
    Once again Frontier seems to do 1 step forward and two backward ...

    1) Less random base - CHECK
    2) No more flavor - CHECK
    3) Special effect can be apply at will - CHECK
    4) Fixed con attribute - CHECK
    5) Can roll a pinned blueprint outside the engineer base - CHECK
    6) Remove engineer reputation - mmmhhh didn't see it as a problem but ... ok CHECK.


    7) MUST ROLL EACH GRADE from 1 to 5 (random base for reaching the level cap) - NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

    What's the point of point 1-6 if ... we do the same mistake at the end ? ...

  12. #57
    Originally Posted by MadDogMurdock View Post (Source)
    If the intent is for pilots to actually use G1 > G4 more widely and rank up over time, then the obvious change is to move the grind to the engineer reputation instead.

    At least then it's still only a one time grind instead of every time.
    (translator)

    I think you're right, especially interesting for those who have multiple ships.. I only use one ship so this does not concern me, but I understand..

    it is already rather long to increase one to the highest ranks.. so with several ships there is for a lifetime.

    but I have a doubt ? this is not already the case ? they want to change that maybe.

  13. #58
    That makes the grandfathering pretty powerful. Maybe too much of a headstart.

  14. #59
    Originally Posted by Ziljan View Post (Source)
    I think it's totally fine.

    1. The number of rolls to get a maxed G5 roll before were about 15-20, and a god roll could be gotten in between 15-500 rolls.

    2. Assuming that you need about 3-5 or so rolls on average to progress to the next grade, then that means about 16 rolls to get to the beginning of grade 5, and since the top of grade 4 is apparently equal to a maxed current grade 5, then I would need about 12-20 rolls to get a current maxed roll. That's a bit better than before, and GUARANTEED progress and the ability to swap materials at a Materials Agent means that engineering is about to get one hell of a lot easier. On top of which, any new rolls in the grade 5 category are likely to make my best rolls better.

    3. My grandfathered grade 5 rolls will be the same as the new grade 4, which means that I can upgrade my non-god roll modules (which is nearly all of them) and get a significant boost without having to worry about grades 1-4. Bonus.

    Hence I think all the whinging is being done by people who just haven't really considered the current effort required vs the coming easy street. Ah well. Whingers gonna whinge about something. Maybe if they whinge enough though, they'll be able to to parley this into a even easier engineering mode? lol. Maybe that's exactly what they're doing, and I guess that's fine with me too
    Just gonna slap my agreement with this post right here. Two thumbs up.

  15. #60
    Originally Posted by Navigare Necesse Est View Post (Source)
    That makes the grandfathering pretty powerful. Maybe too much of a headstart.
    Hence the mass rush of g5 modding by some players.

Page 4 of 26 FirstFirst 1234567814 ... LastLast