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Thread: Delay update

  1. #46
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    We don't believe that this should be the case in general. The average number of crafts to complete a module's rank is currently running at around three (2.8 or so to be more precise), increasing a little when you get to the end of rank five.

    We don't think that's particularly excessive, and we like the potential for the module upgrading experience to feel more like progression. Importantly, every time you visit an Engineer, you will leave with improved modules, even if they are not maxed out..
    We've been making the assumption that it would be three rolls per rank; and it is extremely excessive.

    In light of these changes I decided to do all my HRPs before the new engineering changes come in.

    In eleven rolls, using 33 grade 5 materials I got 6 HPRs, four of which were max'd grade 5 and two of which were over-rolled.

    In the new system eleven rolls wouldn't even get us one module, let alone 6.

    Current system straight to grade 5
    1x Compound Shielding
    1x Core Dynamics Composites
    1x Tungsten

    "Acceptable" roll Grade 5 Module - 1-3 rolls, 3-9 materials

    New System - Grade 1 to Grade 5 - we're assuming 3 rolls per grade to match current engineering progression.
    Carbon x3 patterns
    Shield Emitters x2 patterns
    High Density Composites x1 pattern
    Proprietary Composites x1 pattern
    Vanadium x1 Pattern
    Compound Shielding x1 Pattern
    Core Dynamics Composites x1 Pattern
    Tungsten x1 Pattern

    Comparable "Acceptable" roll Grade 4 Module - minimum 12 rolls, 36 materials




    Remember at the moment we just scoop up the materials we actually are looking for; and this is tedious enough - under the new system we'll have to scoop up absolutely everything.

    At the moment we can ignore the materials we don't need - in the future we'd have to spend more time collecting more materials and less time fighting.

    Unless you have plans to make the collection process more streamlined, it's only going to further frustrate people.

    Adding a material collecting limpet controller to every ship as standard that doesn't take up any module space, power and works automatically this will be fine - anything less than that and the system we have currently is better.

  2. #47
    Originally Posted by Robert Maynard View Post (Source)
    What is proposed is to require the player to do 93% as much crafting as unlocking the grades in the first place (11.2 rolls on average) over and above the (potentially) single desired Grade 5 modification every single time a stock module is the desired recipient of that modification.

    At the moment we can arrive at the Engineer with a stock module and ingredients for a single Grade 5 roll that will also be a pretty much guaranteed improvement.
    That's true. On the other hand:

    If you want to apply specific special effects to four weapons, at the moment you have to:
    - roll G5 mod, spend 2 levels of rep
    - roll 3xG3, 3xG4 or roll 15xG3 to rank back up
    - roll G5 mod, spend 2 levels of rep
    - roll 3xG3, 3xG4 or roll 15xG3 to rank back up
    - roll G5 mod, spend 2 levels of rep
    - roll 3xG3, 3xG4 or roll 15xG3 to rank back up
    - roll G5 mod, spend 2 levels of rep
    - assuming you ever intend to come back, another 3xG3, 3xG4 to get back up to level 5 rep

    So that's 7 rolls per module *if* you apply the special effect to the first G5 roll every time and use the most optimal rolls to re-rank ... 16 if you use only G3 rolls to rerank ... or hundreds if you use G1 rolls.

    In the new system: roll 2.8xG1-4, 1xG5, which is 12.2 rolls. Not that much higher that even the best case before, and most of the increase is in G1/G2 mods which have trivial material requirements.


    Or, if you already have a G5 module not at maximum performance and want to improve it a bit, at the moment you have to:
    - roll between 1 and 1000000 times depending on how close to max performance it already is and how lucky you get.

    In the new system: roll 1 time


    Or, if you want a G5 module at the top of the primary range, at the moment you have to:
    - roll between 5 and 20 times, depending on how likely a secondary which boosts the primary is for that blueprint.

    In the new system: roll ~2.8*5 times (14 but round up to 15).


    Or, you want a massively overcharged power plant. You roll G5 in the old system and you may get unlucky and get only a 10% increase in generation.

    In the new system, assuming the grade boundaries don't change significantly, you roll 2.8 G1 instead and maybe already have the equivalent module.


    Sure, there's a specific case: you have a stock module, you want a G5 mod, you don't care how good the G5 mod is so long as it's somewhere in the G5 range [1], and you don't want a weapon experimental, where the current system requires considerably fewer rolls. *Even in that case*, though, the rest of the proposal makes the material gathering part of the process much easier, so in exchange for clicking "apply" a few more times, you can use the material broker and spend 100% less time hunting for CIF or Pharma Isolators or both, which is the actual *slow* bit of the current process.

    [1] In which case, under the current rules, for a lot of blueprints you'd almost certainly be quicker overall to roll the G4 module five or six times, as the components will be much easier to get, and a near-max G4 has a good chance of being better than a single roll G5.

  3. #48
    If this is the path we are going down, why not group the module rank to each upgrade type and engineer? In other words, once you get to grade 5 FSD jump range increase with Farseer, then you can upgrade any FSD you bring to her to grade 5 immediately. If you go to Martuuk to upgrade an FSD, she doesn't know (or care) what you did with Farseer, so you'd have to rank up again for that grade 5 FSD jump range increase. If for some reason you want a faster charging FSD from Farseer, you'd have to start back at grade 1 for that particular upgrade type for that particular engineer.

    This system would accomplish several things. 1) There is more "sense of progression" due to a commander having to go through each module upgrade type with each engineer that they wish to use. 2) When you have your preferred module upgrades with your preferred engineers at the rank you'd like, then it is like the current system to upgrade a new module for a new ship.

    Another potential benefit to this is that FDev could add engineers in the future in various locations that may have duplicate blueprints but retain those engineers usefulness due to the rank grind per module that would be in place. I've personally never used Martuuk for anything, therefore I would not have access to a grade 2 or above FSD upgrade. I have a wonderful relationship with Farseer, so she would fast track my ships to that grade 5 upgrade immediately. Another commander who calls a system near Martuuk home could have a great relationship with her and never use Farseer for anything. This differs from the current system enough to be interesting. Right now, all I have to do so fly to any unlocked engineers and dump enough materials for 12 upgrades, and we are best friends.

    This could pave the way for Colonia engineers some day as well. They would end being duplicated in their blueprints, but a seasoned commander would have to earn their trust per module upgrade type.

    I'm sure even this compromise sounds terrible to commanders who have extensively used engineers thus far. In my head, it does make some sense, though. If engineers are based on our reputation with them or trust or however we want to lore it into the game, then it might be logical that their trust is per module upgrade type. If all you ever do is learn from a mechanic how to add horsepower to your car, then you decide to tweak the transmission for a more efficient car, that mechanic might not trust you to do it as well (with good reason) as your engine modifications.

  4. #49
    Originally Posted by Steed View Post (Source)
    You're misunderstanding again. It's NOT about max ships. The single grade 5 roll that's currently available is a long way from max ships and that going to be removed which will disproportionately affect casual players with an increased time sink.

    I'm for progression if there an incentive, and I'm looking forward to doing it for my favorite ship.
    You compare it with max possible achievement for module.

    I compare it to the base, module without Engineering applied to it.

    Also any comparition with previous fast tracking is not strong argument in my opinion, as system should serve game's design goals.

  5. #50
    Will you still be able to sell exploration data to rank up?

  6. #51
    The "every roll is an improvement" (presumably subject to an asymptotic approach to hard maxima) seems to be designed to appeal to casual and committed users of Engineers alike - a player that only carries out two or three rolls on a module will see improvements on each roll and a player carrying out a large number of rolls on a module will see improvements on each roll.

    The "each grade must be crafted for each module" will make little difference to a player who is prepared to gather materials for 50 or more Grade 5 rolls in pursuit of a god-roll on a stock module as the 11.2 extra rolls (on average) is "only" about 22% more rolls and about 17% more materials / data than required at the moment - for the casual Grade 5 roller, on the other hand, it's an 1,120% more rolls and about 840% more materials / data (on average) than is required at the moment.

    The re-design rather seems to be weighted in favour of the player who already carries out significantly above the mean number of rolls per module.

  7. #52
    I'll echo the majority here and state that I think the grade grind for every single module is a terrible decision. If the goal of the Engineers revamp is to increase player engagement with the feature then this new grade grind goes completely against that goal, as it adds a new large time sink to the Engineers and will only serve to push people away from it. The current method of being able to go right to the Grade 5 you've unlocked was not broken and no one ever complained about that aspect of the Engineers, yet Frontier seems to want to "fix" it for some reason. It's not adding anything positive to the revamp, it is only detracting from it. The grind in the Engineers should be in the material collection, NOT the blueprint applications.

    If Frontier is absolutely adamant about this for some odd reason, then at least meet the community half way. Make it so that you only need to apply a single Grade 1 to go to a Grade 2, one Grade 2 to go to Grade 3, and so on. So 5 rolls to get the minimum Grade 5 instead of the 15-20 that Sandy proposed. This is still adding a new grindy timesink to the Engineers (which is bad IMHO) but at least it would be much less of one.

  8. #53
    Originally Posted by Sandro Sammarco View Post (Source)
    Hello Commanders!

    First, an apology: I haven't found quite as much time this last week for looking at feedback as I hoped, hence the delay. I'm aiming to get some responses out next week.

    Secondly, I see a lot of interest in the concept of enforcing that Commanders progress through all ranks of a module sequentially when upgrading, with the worry that the time requirement to upgrade will be significantly increased. I'd like to add a comment on this now, as I think it will help the debate.

    We don't believe that this should be the case in general. The average number of crafts to complete a module's rank is currently running at around three (2.8 or so to be more precise), increasing a little when you get to the end of rank five.

    We don't think that's particularly excessive, and we like the potential for the module upgrading experience to feel more like progression. Importantly, every time you visit an Engineer, you will leave with improved modules, even if they are not maxed out.

    Hope this information helps, more to come next week.
    Thanks Sandy for your comments and continuing commitment to the game.

    It sounds very much like you have made your mind up.

    I wanted to object to the idea of upgrading each module through every grade.

    Engineering even in its current form has been my FAVORITE part of ED.


    THIS NEW METHOD WOULD BE ENOUGH TO PUT ME OFF ANY FURTHER ENGINEERING ALLTOGETHER.

    Please reconsider.


    With many thanks, Strangepork.

  9. #54
    Originally Posted by Bomba Luigi View Post (Source)
    If you stick with this at least do two things: Don't make us max out a grade, make it a fixed amout like 3 rolls as it is now. And by all that is holy, let us have a look at all blueprints.

    For one when I under the new system need to know the material requierments of 5 mods just do one mod trying to keep track of what I need gets way to messy when I can only pin one blueprint. And if the number of rolls necessary is not a fixed quantity I also need to guess how many mats of those I need, which makes it even more messy. That all needs to become way more simpler to use.

    Best of all of course let us skip ranks. Make those mods worse or whatever, or lock them so I cant re-roll, dunno, just something so i can get about the same with one roll I can get now with one roll. I don't see the progression in the whole process, if I do 12 mods just to throw them away I don't care how good any of those is. If the next thing for the trashcan is better then the last one or not, its still just trash I only do to throw it away.
    I think you are onto something here. Have it that you can skip straight to a G5 or the top rank you have, but then it cannot be re-rolled and it cannot have a special effect. So for the casual players that are not too fussed about min-maxing you can get something pretty good, but not as good if you do the hard work of going through all the ranks.

    Give us choices, the fast but not as good way, or the slower but better in the end way.

  10. #55
    Thankyou for clarification. I am on board with the notion that we shouldn't be jumping to G5 off the bat.

    Please, please, please can y'all reconsider the notion of grandfathering modules. As a PvP player with a high quantity of modules that would be stripped, I just want the plaster torn off. Find some form of recompense by all means, but I've never seen something as terrifying in this game as trying to fix a hard-to-resolve disparity by making it an impossible-to-resolve disparity.

    If we established an issue with the old format of engineering, we established it were broke guv'nor. Fix it.

    I appreciate there are explorers etc. that cannot just have their FSD stripped, but I don't doubt you can find an elegant solution to this. FSDs aren't a source of concern in any case. Please, just fix this once and for all instead of opening yourselves up to just as many complaints following the update.

    Originally Posted by Mengy View Post (Source)
    If Frontier is absolutely adamant about this for some odd reason, then at least meet the community half way. Make it so that you only need to apply a single Grade 1 to go to a Grade 2, one Grade 2 to go to Grade 3, and so on. So 5 rolls to get the minimum Grade 5 instead of the 15-20 that Sandy proposed. This is still adding a new grindy timesink to the Engineers (which is bad IMHO) but at least it would be much less of one.
    Nothing wrong with meeting in the middle. Definitely worth considering. Just as long as it's not "turn up to engineer, walk away with top possible module in seconds".

  11. #56
    Originally Posted by Max Factor View Post (Source)
    I think you are onto something here. Have it that you can skip straight to a G5 or the top rank you have, but then it cannot be re-rolled and it cannot have a special effect. So for the casual players that are not too fussed about min-maxing you can get something pretty good, but not as good if you do the hard work of going through all the ranks.

    Give us choices, the fast but not as good way, or the slower but better in the end way.
    But why does there need to be a downside at all? I would suggest the option to to as many upgrades as you have materials for at once - in one crafting act. There is no reason to force players to button-mash (craft&trash) until the module is maxed out.

  12. #57
    Originally Posted by Cmdr Eagleboy View Post (Source)
    You compare it with max possible achievement for module.

    I compare it to the base, module without Engineering applied to it.

    Also any comparition with previous fast tracking is not strong argument in my opinion, as system should serve game's design goals.
    I strongly disagree. A game's design goals should serve a player's gameplay, not put the design goals (time as a gate) ahead of a player's experience.

    I genuinely don't think some of the devs understand how frustrating material collection is and what an imposition having to get more for the same result will be for a casual player.

  13. #58
    Originally Posted by Cmdr Eagleboy View Post (Source)
    I think you treat it as one off venture, when obviously Sandro most likely mean it as game's life long process.
    Which is fine in itself, problem is that you're required to travel all around the galaxy bubble to progress in this already long process.

  14. #59
    Hmmm from unobtainable grandfathered god-rolls (meta rails etc); to increasing the grind... to quote Lando Calrissian "this deal is getting worse all the time...". I don't suppose moving to the new system can be "opt in" please?

    Seriously though, currently once an engineer is discovered, invited, unlocked, and ranked with, you can then go there in a brand new A-rated ship, and G5 modules. Moving to a system where you have to progress from G1 -> G2 -> G3 -> G4 -> G5 sounds horrendous!

    You seem to be assuming you'll have all components in you ship already, but if you can only pin one blueprint at a time, imagine:
    - at Sol
    - decide to G5 thrusters
    - travel to Palin
    - upgrade A-rated -> G1
    - find missing component
    - travel back to bubble for components
    - farm component
    - travel back to Palin
    - upgrade G1 -> G2
    - find missing component
    - travel back to bubble for components
    - farm component
    - travel back to Palin
    - upgrade G2 -> G3
    - find missing component
    - travel back to bubble for components
    - farm component
    - travel back to Palin
    - upgrade G3 -> G4
    - find missing component
    - travel back to bubble for components
    - farm component
    - travel back to Palin
    - upgrade G4 -> G5
    - travel back to Sol
    - decide to swap ships
    - ugh, decide to upgrade A-rated thrusters...

    Yeah does not sound good at all. Ok after that first time you'll be super careful to have components for the 12 required rolls, but does not sound like an improvement over the current system to me.

    Anyway, i'm going to G5 any current ships i like before 3.0 then

  15. #60
    Originally Posted by Knightshark View Post (Source)
    But why does there need to be a downside at all? I would suggest the option to to as many upgrades as you have materials for at once - in one crafting act. There is no reason to force players to button-mash (craft&trash) until the module is maxed out.
    I agree that you should be able to do it all at once if you have the materials. I can't see any reason why we shouldn't be able to do that.

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