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Thread: Analysis of Fully Upgrading an Anaconda with the New Engineer Design

  1. #76
    Originally Posted by aspiringexpatriate View Post (Source)
    ...

    Personally, I think stepping through every grade for every module will make each engineered ship an investment of time, which usually means a better emotional connection. ....
    Someone tell them I had my personal emotional connection to Asp X, Cobra III, Viper, Python, FAS. Because of the experiences I build with them. They were not terribly different, but enough to have different experiences. And 2.1 just took them away and locked them behind a grindwall. Thanks?

  2. #77
    Originally Posted by aspiringexpatriate View Post (Source)
    Personally, I think stepping through every grade for every module will make each engineered ship an investment of time, which usually means a better emotional connection. That's what FDev is after, and I don't think they're wrong to want that.
    Time spent at a grind wall doesnít build personal attachment, it only fosters negativity and resentment. What builds emotional attachment to ships is actually playing the game with them, experiences lived with them. Iíd wager that the process of actually collecting the mats builds much more attachment than sitting at the blueprint screen pressing ďspin the wheelĒ.

    That said though, there is certainly a point where the need to collect too many mats to engineer makes the entire feature too cumbersome and steep to bother with. This new grade grind dangerously approaches (or even grossly crosses) that line even worse than the current system does, which is staggering when you really think about it. Frontier set out to improve the engineers and encourage participation but might actually be making them worse and pushing people away from them instead. The last thing Elite needs is more time wasting mechanics.

    In my opinion, the barrier to modding a ship should be in the mat collection aspect, because the process of collecting mats requires playing the game via various tasks. Thatís where the time sink is currently and thatís where it should remain. The problem over the past two years has been that certain mats are very hard to find, and the new mat broker will fix that problem, job well done. But thatís it, JOB WELL DONE, no need to add a new time sink in the form of a grade grind after the mat collection process!!!! Itís simply not required and itís a terrible idea, implementing a time sink that does not require gameplay but is only a ďpress lots of buttonsĒ time sink. Completely non value added in a video game as itís just not engaging nor fun.

    I wish Frontier was more concerned with making the game fun than worrying about the time it takes players to accomplish things.

  3. #78
    Originally Posted by Mengy View Post (Source)
    ...

    I wish Frontier was more concerned with making the game fun than worrying about the time it takes players to accomplish things.
    It's sad that I have to quote this. I don't know why so many confuse grind and random rewards with gameplay.

    Gameplay is it's own reward.

    Engineers is locking the gameplay behind a grindwall. I'm not really that desperate for unlocking my gameplay again, I've played a fair share in vanilla.

  4. #79
    Originally Posted by Mengy View Post (Source)
    In my opinion, the barrier to modding a ship should be in the mat collection aspect, because the process of collecting mats requires playing the game via various tasks. Thatís where the time sink is currently and thatís where it should remain.
    How is that not what this proposal focuses on elaborating? Spending time collecting materials is gameplay. The biggest success of engineers has been forcing CMDRs out of their daily gameplay loop. None of the changes in season 1 did this, despite their attempts to pull CMDRs out of their cycle of RES farming and outfitting. Improving the gameplay around gathering materials should be the primary focus for short-term gameplay loop improvements.

    Requiring every module to go through 12 rolls before you can apply Grade 5 modifications to it forces CMDRs to continue gathering a variety of materials, rather than solely focusing on CIF, MEF, EFC, BTC, PHR, CDC and PIS. (What is the appropriate three letter abbreviation for pharmaceutical isolators?)

    Right now, collecting materials can be very frustrating. For me, that's because the RNG nature of surface prospecting, USS drops, and base data point runs. However, the marketplace will be great for those more difficult to source materials, or, more specifically, if you only collect materials from missions, you'll have a stack of Biotech Conductors when you really want Core Dynamics Composites. I just dumped 17 BTC and 12 EFC because I needed storage space. Exchanging those for 5 Core Dynamics Composites would have been fantastic.

    However, I'm hoping that announced improvements to mining and exploration will hopefully include an 'improved' scanner. That way you don't drop on 3 dozen HGE USSs to see Proto Light Alloys when you're looking for Proto Heat Radiators. Or, hell, even some sort of state-based system view readout (upon nav beacon/d-scan) that provides a legend for what types of materials should be available at what types of USSs in system. Just like we have for planetary surface prospecting.

    But the first step in highlighting how material collection is gameplay is in encouraging more CMDRs to collect a wider variety of materials, even if it's only for trading.

  5. #80
    I admit that the data shown in OP is, to say it MILDLY, scary excrement. I'm not willing to devote my life to this - or any other - game.

  6. #81
    Originally Posted by aspiringexpatriate View Post (Source)
    How is that not what this proposal focuses on elaborating? Spending time collecting materials is gameplay. The biggest success of engineers has been forcing CMDRs out of their daily gameplay loop. None of the changes in season 1 did this, despite their attempts to pull CMDRs out of their cycle of RES farming and outfitting. Improving the gameplay around gathering materials should be the primary focus for short-term gameplay loop improvements.

    Requiring every module to go through 12 rolls before you can apply Grade 5 modifications to it forces CMDRs to continue gathering a variety of materials, rather than solely focusing on CIF, MEF, EFC, BTC, PHR, CDC and PIS. (What is the appropriate three letter abbreviation for pharmaceutical isolators?)

    Right now, collecting materials can be very frustrating. For me, that's because the RNG nature of surface prospecting, USS drops, and base data point runs. However, the marketplace will be great for those more difficult to source materials, or, more specifically, if you only collect materials from missions, you'll have a stack of Biotech Conductors when you really want Core Dynamics Composites. I just dumped 17 BTC and 12 EFC because I needed storage space. Exchanging those for 5 Core Dynamics Composites would have been fantastic.

    However, I'm hoping that announced improvements to mining and exploration will hopefully include an 'improved' scanner. That way you don't drop on 3 dozen HGE USSs to see Proto Light Alloys when you're looking for Proto Heat Radiators. Or, hell, even some sort of state-based system view readout (upon nav beacon/d-scan) that provides a legend for what types of materials should be available at what types of USSs in system. Just like we have for planetary surface prospecting.

    But the first step in highlighting how material collection is gameplay is in encouraging more CMDRs to collect a wider variety of materials, even if it's only for trading.
    I'd prefer reducing the number of different materials needed for engineering.

    They already conveniently re-use some mat/dat on the most popular blueprints, even though they're at different grades.

    So much was said by DB about keeping as true to science as possible. I propose that the design team step back and ask themselves how real-world is their proposal. If they seriously think their proposal is more in line with science and the way things happen IRL than all the other examples and suggestions they've been given, then I welcome it. If on the other hand it's nothing more than a change in what the time-gate is (I don't see it as much a reduction to RNG as is being claimed), then my bank account and free time welcome it.

  7. #82
    Originally Posted by StuartGT View Post (Source)
    Originally posted by CMDR Edward Tivrusky VI

    Reference Loadout

    Three rolls each of grades 1-4, instead of rolling grade 5 without prerequisites, requires 900 additional material quantity and 50 material types that would otherwise be unnecessary. The required firmware quantity is doubled.

    Material Grade 1 Grade 2 Grade 3 Grade 4 Grade 5 All Grades
    Total Materials 102 204 306 288 326 1226
    Distinct Materials 12 24 34 39 31 80
    Abnormal Compact Emissions Data 8 8
    Antimony 8 8
    Arsenic 4 4
    Atypical Disrupted Wake Echoes 3 3 6
    Biotech Conductors 8 8
    Cadmium 3 8 11
    Carbon 15 18 18 51
    Chemical Distillery 3 3 6
    Chemical Manipulators 3 12 15
    Chemical Processors 6 3 9
    Chromium 6 15 21
    Compound Shielding 20 20
    Conductive Ceramics 9 9 10 28
    Conductive Components 18 12 3 33
    Conductive Polymers 6 6
    Configurable Components 3 3
    Core Dynamics Composites 20 20
    Cracked Industrial Firmware 3 16 19
    Datamined Wake Exceptions 4 4
    Decoded Emission Data 6 6
    Distorted Shield Cycle Recordings 3 9 9 21
    Divergent Scan Data 3 3
    Eccentric Hyperspace Trajectories 3 3
    Electrochemical Arrays 12 12
    Exceptional Scrambled Emission Data 3 3
    Exquisite Focus Crystals 4 4
    Focus Crystals 12 18 30
    Galvanising Alloys 3 3
    Germanium 3 3 15 21
    Grid Resistors 6 6 6 18
    Heat Conduction Wiring 3 3 3 9
    Heat Dispersion Plate 6 3 9
    Heat Exchangers 6 6
    Heat Vanes 6 6
    High Density Composities 18 6 12 36
    Hybrid Capacitors 12 18 3 33
    Imperial Shielding 6 6
    Inconsistent Shield Soak Analysis 9 9
    Iron 15 15 15 45
    Irregular Emission Data 3 3
    Manganese 3 3 9 15
    Mechanical Components 6 8 14
    Mechanical Equipment 6 9 15
    Mechanical Scrap 9 6 6 21
    Mercury 3 3
    Military Supercapacitors 20 20
    Modified Comsumer Firmware 6 9 9 24
    Molybdenum 12 16 28
    Nickel 12 15 12 39
    Niobium 12 20 32
    Pharmaceutical Isolators 4 4
    Phase Alloys 3 4 7
    Phosphorus 9 6 9 24
    Polymer Capacitors 9 14 23
    Precipitated Alloys 6 6
    Proprietary Composites 18 8 26
    Proto Heat Radiators 8 8
    Proto Light Alloys 3 3
    Refined Focus Crystals 6 22 28
    Ruthenium 4 4
    Salvaged Alloys 3 6 9
    Selenium 6 6 12
    Shield Emitters 30 30 60
    Shield Sensors 15 15
    Shielding Sensors 3 3
    Specialised Legacy Firmware 6 6 3 15
    Strage Wake Solutions 3 3 6
    Sulphur 18 9 12 39
    Tagged Encryption Codes 3 3
    Technetium 12 12
    Tellurium 4 4
    Thermic Alloys 8 8
    Tin 12 12
    Tungsten 12 15 20 47
    Unexpected Emission Data 6 4 10
    Untypical Shield Scans 10 10
    Unusual Encrypted Files 3 3
    Vanadium 6 9 18 33
    Worn Shield Emitters 3 3
    Zinc 12 12
    I post again, this is so Important, I hope it doesn't get lost in the blizzard.

  8. #83
    I'm all for less grind, but this comparison isn't exactly fair. The ship you would end up with would be a world of difference better under the new system.

    Just the drives, you would end up with something equivalent to 142's.

    Under the current system you could do 900 rolls on the drives alone and not end up with 142's. And those 900 rolls will all be with materials that are hard to find. At least with the new system the 900 rolls is at least partially made up of very easy to find mats.

  9. #84
    Originally Posted by sovapid View Post (Source)
    I'm all for less grind, but this comparison isn't exactly fair. The ship you would end up with would be a world of difference better under the new system.

    Just the drives, you would end up with something equivalent to 142's.

    Under the current system you could do 900 rolls on the drives alone and not end up with 142's. And those 900 rolls will all be with materials that are hard to find. At least with the new system the 900 rolls is at least partially made up of very easy to find mats.
    I think OPs math doesn't even aim for god rolls. To get 142% would most probably require more roles. I am really interested to see the specifics on "you will get an upgrade every time".

  10. #85
    Originally Posted by B1rdy View Post (Source)
    I think OPs math doesn't even aim for god rolls. To get 142% would most probably require more roles. I am really interested to see the specifics on "you will get an upgrade every time".
    You are right, I was just thinking about this. The 900 rolls just gets you to the point where you can do grade 5 rolls.

    I don't think we seen/heard any info on what it takes to "buy" the special effects with materials.

    Please don't let it be something like 50 Pharmaceutical Isolators to get something like 142's .

  11. #86
    Without knowing any limits we can provide "focussed speculation" rather than feedback.

  12. #87
    Well now the cement has dried...

  13. #88
    Seems we all know what we need to do for the next few weeks - grind like crazy to get every module/ship we want done so that we don't have to worry about it once these changes come out. Is there anyone that thinks this is a good idea? As I have all engineers unlocked now I can buy a ship, figure out what handful of materials I need, go get them and in about 6-8 hours have a fully G5 ship (with 1-3 rolls per module) - after this that's going to take what, 10-20x that long?

    Do they not understand the primary problem with engineering is the amount of grind and that this worsens it dramatically? Further proof Frontier doesn't actually play their own game like we do which is just sad. The skills, or lack there of, shown in the live streams over the years help illustrate that further.

    As to the idiotic comment about us having an emotional connection to our ships sorry, I have an emotional connection to emotional things, you know like my family. I do not, nor ever will, have an emotional connection to digital bits in a video game, that's just absurd.

    ~X

  14. #89
    Jeeeeeesus! it seems like engineering is going to be a huge pain in the ! Its decisions like this that turn a great game into a good game and eventually into something you dont play because it becomes too complex. I feel like I am going to have to break out my materials calculator every time I want to engineer.

  15. #90
    Originally Posted by B1rdy View Post (Source)
    I think OPs math doesn't even aim for god rolls. To get 142% would most probably require more roles. I am really interested to see the specifics on "you will get an upgrade every time".
    everytime you roll the negative outcomes remain the same...and the positive always increases (it could be 1% or 25% (limits are estimated your mileage will vary!))...there is RNG in this increase...but you can never go lower than what you had already had.

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