Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 62

Thread: C&P FAQ: Things you might not know

  1. #1

    C&P FAQ: Things you might not know

    First up, this isn't a "Calm down, everything is ok with the new C&P system" post. There are problems (well, one or two, as far as I can tell) with it... to present them straight off the bat:

    There's no distinction between minor bounty crimes and murder, like there is in the current live crime system. So, if you scanned a private beacon, or accidentally shot someone, or some other crime that gets you a <1000cr bounty in the live game, you can shrug that off in 10 minutes. Kill someone (or do some crime with a bounty > 1000cr) and you're up for a full week.

    Under the current Beta system, murder, assault, scanning private beacons, are all indistinguishable. This is a level of resolution thats been lost with the current system in Beta, and needs to be addressed.

    Another debatable one is the thresholds for "assault" needing to be increased.

    So with that out of the way.....

    FINES

    Work pretty much the same as old, except when you get them, you're locked out of most station services. Easily enough, you pay the fine, job done, services restored. Simple enough.

    BOUNTIES

    This is where there's a fair whack of consternation, and some of it is misguided and borne from a lack of understanding about the new C&P system. Statments like "A stray shot now costs you 2m to pay off!" are fairly inaccurate. The rest of this will explain how bounties work, in consideration of the issue I noted at the start of this thread.

    If you get a bounty, it's whatever the bounty value is, tagged against your ship. This bounty scales depending on notoriety and stuff... I'm not really going to go into that... needless to say higher notoriety = bigger bounties for crime (apparently).

    What's this mean? Switch to a different ship and you're "clean". Easy enough.

    But I want to clean my ship with the bounty?
    Go to an Interstellar Factors contact to clean your ship. Unlike fines, whose cost is the value of the fine... the cost of clearing a bounty is:
    Value of the Bounty + 10% of your ship value^.

    So, if I shoot someone while I'm in worth 200m credits, the cost to clean that ship is:
    100cr (bounty) + 20m (10% of ship value^)

    This addition of ship value is once off (perhaps in that jurisdiction, unsure yet). So if I go ahead and commit a further 2,000cr worth of various crimes (say, assault 20 different ships), cost to clean my ship is now:
    2,000cr (bounty) + 20m (10% of ship value^)

    *not*
    2,000cr + 400m (20m added for each of 20 crimes)

    But do it in a vulture worth 5m credits and it's a whole other picture... with the clearance cost being only 500,000cr

    What's this mean?

    Short version, don't do crime in big ships*.

    Longer version: The whole point of the new C&P system is to disincentivise people using "godships" (cutters, corvettes etc) to just gank everything in sight by attaching a hefty pricetag and access penalties to the activity. What this translates somewhat to is it incentivises using the "least efficient ship" to achieve your goal.... in other words if you can pirate people in a stock sidewinder, do it, because your profits will be insane compared to the bounties incurred.

    For comparison, a mostly-A-rate Vulture will only attract a 500,000cr IF cleaning pricetag, which is able to do a degree of piracy.... you just need to luck out with a hauler or two full of LTDs and you've made that back.

    FRIENDLY FIRE
    Of course, the big one on everyones tongue is "But the NPC wandered into my field of fire and I hit it and got a bounty".

    If you don't have a ship targeted, you can get away with a couple shots, followed by a "Reckless Weapon Discharge" which is just a fine... followed by an "Assault" bounty.
    (shot with 3C gimbal bursts)


    If you have a ship targeted, the bounty is instantaneous


    I'm always an advocate of situational awareness and trigger control rather than protecting players who throw out a misguided shot or two, but as I mentioned, the lack of distinction between murder and assault consequences is a considerable issue.

    Surviving the new C&P system

    So, I've been having a think about the consequences of the new C&P system. Except the issues I already raised, it's actually pretty good. Things you should think about are:
    - If you're going to actively do crime, do it in as small and cheap a ship as possible to minimize the cost of clearing the bounty through IF
    - Do crime in lawless/anarchy systems. You won't cop any hits from bounties in those systems
    - Try and keep crime on only one of your ships. Also think about the jurisdictions you're wanted in; try to do crime in the same system if you're going to get a bounty for it.

    This is just a quick and dirty post... if you have other tips or advice, add it on.

    ^ I think. All my tests seem around this figure so far.

  2. #2
    Waiting for the first rash of speeding commanders boosting out of the mail slot, because their experience is more important, colliding with and destroying a ship, IMMEDIATELY destroyed by the station and sent to the gulag.

    It’s going to be great. Very looking forward to this.

  3. #3
    Will make illegal missions interesting
    I wonder if the missions that do need criminal acts to be carried out can be made to favour targets in a different super power if possible.

  4. #4
    I would point out, that what used to be a 10 min 'Time-Out' and re-jump to pay off a tiny fine for FF, has now become a Fine+%Re-Buy. That function is a mistake. The +%Re-Buy should not be applied if you can get out of the spoiled instance, without a Murder Bounty.

    I am still down with the Instance erupting and chasing you out. So a short term bounty is still appropriate, but a 100 Cr. mishap turning into a multi-million fine at IF is not what the system is intended to do, as far as I can see. I'd like FD to consider the Timer + Re-Jump mechanism to return, and then you still have to go in 'Anonymously' to pay your fine.

  5. #5
    Originally Posted by Mohrgan View Post (Source)
    I would point out, that what used to be a 10 min 'Time-Out' and re-jump to pay off a tiny fine for FF, has now become a Fine+%Re-Buy. That function is a mistake. The +%Re-Buy should not be applied if you can get out of the spoiled instance, without a Murder Bounty.

    I am still down with the Instance erupting and chasing you out. So a short term bounty is still appropriate, but a 100 Cr. mishap turning into a multi-million fine at IF is not what the system is intended to do, as far as I can see. I'd like FD to consider the Timer + Re-Jump mechanism to return, and then you still have to go in 'Anonymously' to pay your fine.
    That's what I said at the start behind the spoiler

    I talk about it more here... but yes, I agree. The different consequences between murder and assault which is in current live build is gone in Beta, and that's a problem.... in other words:

    Current live has three consequences of crime:
    - Fine, payable anytime
    - Bounty under 1,000cr, payable in 10 minutes, which included assault.
    - Bounty over 1,000cr, only payable after 7 days, which only really happens for murder, or multiple instances of assault.

    Now we just have:
    - Fines
    - Bounties which cost the %rebuy + bounty, which includes both murder and assault.

  6. #6
    Originally Posted by Jmanis View Post (Source)
    That's what I said at the start behind the spoiler

    I talk about it more here... but yes, I agree. The different consequences between murder and assault which is in current live build is gone in Beta, and that's a problem.... in other words:

    Current live has three consequences of crime:
    - Fine, payable anytime
    - Bounty under 1,000cr, payable in 10 minutes, which included assault.
    - Bounty over 1,000cr, only payable after 7 days, which only really happens for murder, or multiple instances of assault.

    Now we just have:
    - Fines
    - Bounties which cost the %rebuy + bounty, which includes both murder and assault.
    I think it is time to reconsider some aspects of the Punishment system in light of the C&P changes.

    -Non-combat bounties should carry a smaller mark-up than Combat Bounties, to get them removed at an Interstellar Factor.

    -Certain crimes (loitering, trespass & possibly even smuggling/non-violent piracy), should carry a fine for a first offense, but quickly progress to a bounty for repeat offenses. Hacking & Sabotage should always carry a bounty however.

    -Crimes that carry a bounty of less than 1000 Credits shouldn't necessarily warrant an immediate security response-especially if more Wanted Criminals are close by. Such small bounties should always give Commanders a couple of minutes to flee the scene, unless you're in a High Security system.

  7. #7
    Originally Posted by Marc_Hicks View Post (Source)
    I think it is time to reconsider some aspects of the Punishment system in light of the C&P changes.

    -Non-combat bounties should carry a smaller mark-up than Combat Bounties, to get them removed at an Interstellar Factor.

    -Certain crimes (loitering, trespass & possibly even smuggling/non-violent piracy), should carry a fine for a first offense, but quickly progress to a bounty for repeat offenses. Hacking & Sabotage should always carry a bounty however.

    -Crimes that carry a bounty of less than 1000 Credits shouldn't necessarily warrant an immediate security response-especially if more Wanted Criminals are close by. Such small bounties should always give Commanders a couple of minutes to flee the scene, unless you're in a High Security system.

    Maybe smuggling should be dependent on what you're smuggling (and where), drugs/slaves/guns being immediate bounties, for example.



    I honestly think the system would work basically as is, if the ship percentage value was based on your current notoriety, when trying to pay it off.
    It's riskier for the IF to clear your bounty if you're number one most wanted in the galaxy, vs you accidentally fired a PA that an NPC wandered into.

    That way, even if the system supremely eff'd you by having a nearly dead sidewinder tumble into your laser barrage, you can at least stow your ship and wait for your notoriety to go down before attempting to pay it off.



    Having murdered some clean things deliberately in the beta, I see no upside to paying off my bounty when it costs so much to do so.
    In fact, I view it as straight validation for continuing to commit crimes, because what's the worst that could happen? There's no dramatic increase for continuing to murder things; I'm already ~20m in.
    So what's the point in paying it off? I may as well leave it, and commit illegal missions in that system, right up to the point where I'd get a galactic bounty, then pay it off, or even just go commit crimes in a new system.
    Remember, it's >2m with a single entity, so I don't have to pay it off at all, if I'm willing to keep moving my criminal activities.

    FD implemented a punishment system for crime, but it punishes people for going clean, not staying criminal.
    Critical failure.

  8. #8
    Keep your currencies invested in Ships/Mods, they won't be able to touch your wealth that way. Get a big Bounty? Jump in a junker, get blown up, and take the bankruptcy. Get back to your hoard, sell off some assets, jump in one of your fleet, and off you go.

    Does the Bounty pay off screen/system make you remotely sell assets to bring up your liquid currency up in order to satisfy the Bounty/Fine?

  9. #9
    Originally Posted by Mohrgan View Post (Source)
    Keep your currencies invested in Ships/Mods, they won't be able to touch your wealth that way. Get a big Bounty? Jump in a junker, get blown up, and take the bankruptcy. Get back to your hoard, sell off some assets, jump in one of your fleet, and off you go.

    Does the Bounty pay off screen/system make you remotely sell assets to bring up your liquid currency up in order to satisfy the Bounty/Fine?
    One of my friends starting out was pretty terrible, and got himself under 1k credits when blowing up.
    The game forced a loan on him, even though he literally didn't need it (he just had a fuel scoop on his otherwise stock winder, which was like, 100cr to rebuy, and had barely got under 1k), but the bank threw him a loan, and told him that they'd take the money back by garnishing his pay-ins.

    So, with that in mind, I'd assume the game will just force you into a loan situation.
    And it won't clear your bounty, which is on your ship.


    Elite: Debt-ious.

  10. #10
    Originally Posted by Mohrgan View Post (Source)
    Keep your currencies invested in Ships/Mods, they won't be able to touch your wealth that way. Get a big Bounty? Jump in a junker, get blown up, and take the bankruptcy. Get back to your hoard, sell off some assets, jump in one of your fleet, and off you go.

    Does the Bounty pay off screen/system make you remotely sell assets to bring up your liquid currency up in order to satisfy the Bounty/Fine?
    Bounty is associated with the ship. So unless you are in the ship with the bounty when you die, the bounty won't get removed.

  11. #11
    Originally Posted by Jmanis View Post (Source)

    Longer version: The whole point of the new C&P system is to disincentivise people using "godships" (cutters, corvettes etc) to just gank everything in sight by attaching a hefty pricetag and access penalties to the activity. What this translates somewhat to is it incentivises using the "least efficient ship" to achieve your goal.... in other words if you can pirate people in a stock sidewinder, do it, because your profits will be insane compared to the bounties incurred.
    And that's a fine idea in theory, but it should not apply against NPC's. They're simply too easy to hit on accident, the issue is 'ganking' in open play so having it also apply to crime against NPC's serves no purpose.


    If you don't have a ship targeted, you can get away with a couple shots, followed by a "Reckless Weapon Discharge" which is just a fine... followed by an "Assault" bounty.
    Oh if only that were true. Put up all the video you want, but just yesterday in Beta I was shooting a wanted target and a Cobra just flew in between us.. Boom.. 100CR fine that cost me 1.7M to clear. I did nothing wrong, I targeted a wanted ship and fired. Had this happened in my Anaconda, it would have been much worse.

    This system sounds good in theory, but in the end, all it does is make things like Bounty Hunting lose any possibilty of profitability. You can hunt for 2 hrs, fire one stray shot and you're below where you started. At the very least, 'simple' fines like Assault should wear off in 20 min or so, having to pay millions of credits because you made a simple mistake is not a mechanic that encourages people to experiment with various types of game play. The new system just tells everyone one thing.. Trade is the only thing you can do in ED. This system makes every other mode of game play simply too risky to even attempt.

    It's broken.

  12. #12
    Originally Posted by Darth Llama View Post (Source)
    And that's a fine idea in theory, but it should not apply against NPC's. They're simply too easy to hit on accident, the issue is 'ganking' in open play so having it also apply to crime against NPC's serves no purpose.




    Oh if only that were true. Put up all the video you want, but just yesterday in Beta I was shooting a wanted target and a Cobra just flew in between us.. Boom.. 100CR fine that cost me 1.7M to clear. I did nothing wrong, I targeted a wanted ship and fired. Had this happened in my Anaconda, it would have been much worse.

    This system sounds good in theory, but in the end, all it does is make things like Bounty Hunting lose any possibilty of profitability. You can hunt for 2 hrs, fire one stray shot and you're below where you started. At the very least, 'simple' fines like Assault should wear off in 20 min or so, having to pay millions of credits because you made a simple mistake is not a mechanic that encourages people to experiment with various types of game play. The new system just tells everyone one thing.. Trade is the only thing you can do in ED. This system makes every other mode of game play simply too risky to even attempt.

    It's broken.
    Once again.... read the very first part of my post. I don't disagree with any of this.

    There's currently no distinction in consequence between assault and murder, unlike current live build. This needs to be fixed.

  13. #13
    Originally Posted by Jmanis View Post (Source)
    Once again.... read the very first part of my post. I don't disagree with any of this.
    You mean the part you intentionally hid under a spoiler tag?

    Right, hard to see how I missed that.

    The way your post is written, you will probably get a lot of misunderstanding. Turns out we're mostly in agreement, so I guess the point is moot.

  14. #14
    So in short, donít do crimes and youíre fine.

    Got it

    I donít agree with any of the suggested changes in comments above as right now itís just a result of a crime tied to the ship.....makes sense as the intent is to penalize the crime with the ship until cleaned. Itís fairly simple to understand vs the old more complicated system that didnít motivate anyone not to be a criminal.

    Also, it doesnít remove criminal gameplay, it adds another element but being a killer, is now worse than just being a criminal as it should be.

  15. #15
    Originally Posted by NewBlacksmurf View Post (Source)
    I don’t agree with any of the suggested changes in comments above as right now it’s just a result of a crime tied to the ship.....makes sense as the intent is to penalize the crime with the ship until cleaned.
    All good, but the key issue is as Jmanis says:

    There's no distinction between minor bounty crimes and murder, like there is in the current live crime system.
    This will affect both pirates (proper ones) and RES scrubs who can't aim () as they pick up Assault bounties and face the same penalties for Murder.

Page 1 of 5 123 ... LastLast